The Rights of Men

[jackelgull]

There seems to be a real demand for this kind of thread, so I present to you the first RD thread on mens' issues.

Let me begin by saying that all privilege has its price. I believe this is a fairly mundane statement. In order to keep and hold onto privilege, those who have it must keep in place systems to preserve privilege, and thus to keep those systems running, certain attitudes/thought patterns/justifications must take place. This rigid and locked thought process is the price. As feminists and other civil rights activists dismantle the systems that keep this privilege running, the thought processes that kept these systems running manifest themselves in other ways, leading to other negative consequences. I believe that the broader Civil Rights Movements (I am grouping together every movement in the last eighty years under the same umbrella for convenience) has done a good job on changing the thought process of those with privilege towards those to whom privilege has been denied. At least, these days, society doesn't think African Americans are inherently inferior to white people. Remnants of these thoughts processes do exist, but they're challenged. What these movements haven't done, and I don't blame them for this, is try to change how the privileged see themselves. Which is where I believe many men's rights issues begin. With how men see themselves, and what the reality is.

Hopefully, if my post had nothing substantial or worth considering in it, feel free to laugh, and present your own thoughts on the subject. Even if you don't find my post cringeworthy/ laugh worthy, please discuss. I believe it will be an enlightening conversation.

 

[madviking]

I don't think people (men) need a substantial movement to recognize their own privilege. Reading about what a lot of non-cis/straight/well to do/white men have to deal with has made me more aware of the reality the position I occupy in it. The "men's right movement" (as I understand it) seems to be primarily a reaction against the advances made by non-cis/straight/well to do/white men. In fact, I'd argue that there seems a contingent of people within movement that are more myopic than those outside the movement.

 

[Narz]

Ouch. Went back on my phones browser & lost my post.

I'll try to retrace...

Obviously men & women should have the same human rights.

People will always have deep seeded assumptions of others based on age/sex/culture. Most of these are bs.

The main issue to my mind that modern men face is redefining their own masculinity. Many men live in a contracted state, feeling the need to show strength or at least never show weakness. I believe this is a big reason men do not live as long as women (and the effect seems to be most pronounced in more "macho" cultures, take Russia for example).

I read an article about shame and the women who wrote it stated that the #1 shame issue for women is body-image whereas for men it was weakness or the appearance thereof.

Also since men are the perpetrators of most violence the good ones often overcompensate (I know I have) and try to be extra nice, especially with the fairer sex. To be able to embody both strength & openness is frankly not something either sex is very trained in.

Gender roles seems like a taboo subject in the modern 1st world. Either you're some weirdo "family values" person who believes in 1 man, 1 woman, missionary position only & god bless America or on the other extreme that gender roles are irrelevant and should be ignored/not discussed even tho their influence is apparent & undeniable.

Anyway, my first post was a little less tangenty but let me post this before I lose this too.

 

[civman110]

Men and women should both be treated with respect, but they are different. I believe men and women have the right to decide on their own what they want to do with their lives. We already have that, so I don't agree with all of the Social Justice stuff for either sex.

 

[Tee Kay]

One of the problems is that privilege is often not well discussed.

Often when privilege is brought up it's used to mean, or misunderstood to mean, "you people have it easy so shut up and stop whining", and then it becomes something used to either dismiss the problems/concerns/perspectives of others.

Combined with the general culture of the internet (ie. cesspoolesque) and our species' inbuilt negativity bias and it means a young white cis-man with depression and anxiety stuck in a deadend part-time job is unlikely to think he's got much privilege, and being yelled at by an online Outrage Mob that he's privileged without understanding the broader societal/historical context is likely to enrage rather than educate.

I believe men and women have the right to decide on their own what they want to do with their lives. We already have that

We actually don't, but this is another reason why it's hard to talk about this stuff. There's no big legal barrier to equality. If women don't have, say, the right to vote, and men do, you could clearly point to this and say, hey, we're not equal, this needs to be fixed. But pointing to assumptions and expectations and trends and privileges embedded in society, some so deeply embedded most people don't even realise and even when they think about it just assume it's the way things just are, that's much harder.

(Goes for racism, religious discrimination, etc too)

 

[civman110]

We actually don't, but this is another reason why it's hard to talk about this stuff.

But, that's a matter of opinion.

But pointing to assumptions and expectations and trends and privileges embedded in society, some so deeply embedded most people don't even realise and even when they think about it just assume it's the way things just are, that's much harder.

(Goes for racism, religious discrimination, etc too)

I disagree with all of that stuff. I can respect that you have a different opinion, but I just don't agree with the Social Justice stuff and it's not because I haven't heard all of the arguments.

 

[Tee Kay]

But, that's a matter of opinion.

It manifestly is not a matter of opinion. People very much do not get to decide "on their own" what to do with their lives. It's always limited by your circumstances, where you were born, who your friends and family are, your race, gender, physical attributes, economic circumstances, and so on, and will always be. The issue is how much should we let any one of those influence our lives, how much should we level the playing field.

 

[civman110]

People very much do not get to decide "on their own" what to do with their lives.

This is probably the crux of our disagreement. It's just a difference in outlook. I think people do get to decide, but I don't think we are going to come to an agreement no matter how much we talk about it - I'm not trying to be rude saying that.

 

[bhavv]

Men and women should both be treated with respect, but they are different. I believe men and women have the right to decide on their own what they want to do with their lives. We already have that, so I don't agree with all of the Social Justice stuff for either sex.

Should all men and women be treated with respect though? What about murderers, rapists and terrorists?

Should we show respect towards Hitler, nazis and neo nazis? Or towards the KKK and white supremacists?

 

[civman110]

Should all men and women be treated with respect though? What about murderers, rapists and terrorists?

Should we show respect towards Hitler, nazis and neo nazis? Or towards the KKK and white supremacists?

That's really a fallacious question.

 

[bhavv]

I didn't ask about being kind. I did clearly ask if you think that such people should be respected.

 

[civman110]

I didn't ask about being kind. I did clearly ask if you think that such people should be respected.

We do respect criminals as a society, but that doesn't mean we don't punish them for their crimes, or that we approve of what they did.

---

*I should also state that I mean respect in this regard:

Noun:
due regard for the feelings, wishes, rights, or traditions of others.
plural noun: respects
"respect for human rights"
synonyms: due regard, politeness, courtesy, civility, deference
"he spoke to her with respect"
antonyms: disrespect

Verb:
have due regard for the feelings, wishes, rights, or traditions of.
"I respected his views"
synonyms: show consideration for, have regard for, observe, be mindful of, be heedful of; formaltake cognizance of
"they respected our privacy"

 

[warpus]

I hope that one day we can have shelters for men to take refuge in when they face domestic violence, rape, or other issues.

I'm not so much concerned for me, I can take care of myself.. for the most part. I'm not weak physically nor emotionally.. (yet) but many men out there are, and a lot of them do not have anyone to turn to with their problems.

More and more middle aged men are committing suicide and we are doing nothing about it.

Unfortunately it isn't popular to discuss these issues and you'll often get yelled at for just bringing any of it up. Yet that isn't going to be enough to silence me - I have a father, uncles, male colleagues, and friends, and any one of them could be in this situation. Life is unexpected. The women in my life have support networks to help them through similar issues - but the men in my life don't.

And I swear the next time I hear "You're a man, deal with it", I'm going to deal with it by lashing out. I'm an emotional creature and I don't think it's fair that I'm always told by society to keep my emotions in check, hidden underneath my rugged manly exterior. To hell with that. I'm going to cry when I want and I'm going to ask people to respect my emotional well-being, even if society's gender roles make a mockery of my humanity.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I would argue that a thread that purports to be about men's rights issues, but then the OP just goes on to talk about recognising privilege and that men's rights issues all stem from how the privileged see themselves, isn't really getting off on the right foot. At best it's a very biased way to start the discussion.

You're basically saying "firstly, let's all agree that feminist theory is correct about everything, that the Patriarchy is "a thing", and that men are all privileged, and let's discuss men's rights issues in that context". Which I suppose is all well and good if you want a very limited and narrow discussion that is probably going to exclude most of the people who are motivated to say anything on the subject right from the off.

 

[jackelgull]

Feel free to expand the discussion. I never meant my OP to limit anything, just a base for which things could get started. How would you have approached the issue?

 

[useless]

Acknowledging that male priviledge exists isn't biased, it's an acknowledgement that males get certain priviledges or don't need to work as hard as women to be gain the same level of respect or acceptance in cetain roles.

No one is going to go to a man and complain about how he dresses and how he is somehow bringing about negative attention in the same manner women are often addressed, for example and if a man is harassed, neither is that going to be the first thing said "oh well you were dressed in that way... you should have known...".

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I would have just opened the floor for people to raise whatever issues they thought were worthy of raising and to discuss them on their own merit, I wouldn't have tried to frame the discussion in a particular light or apply a particular context to it. I admit though that that probably wouldn't have made a particularly gripping OP and that you had to put SOMETHING so fair enough I suppose.

 

[JollyRoger]

I disagree with all of that stuff. I can respect that you have a different opinion, but I just don't agree with the Social Justice stuff and it's not because I haven't heard all of the arguments.

Do you agree or disagree with all the social justice advocacy going on to support the likes of Kim Davis or Hobby Lobby? Is it troubling that in the marriage arena, Kim Davis is favoring the anti-man policies of others in the family law field by wanting to deny the family law right of a man (to marry a man) that a woman has (to marry a man)?

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Acknowledging that male priviledge exists isn't biased, it's an acknowledgement that males get certain priviledges or don't need to work as hard as women to be gain the same level of respect or acceptance in cetain roles.

No one is going to go to a man and complain about how he dresses and how he is somehow bringing about negative attention in the same manner women are often addressed, for example and if a man is harassed, neither is that going to be the first thing said "oh well you were dressed in that way... you should have known...".

I'm sorry but it is biased. If absolutely everyone agreed with that then it wouldn't be biased, but it's quite clear that not only do a significant number of people NOT believe that, but that that lack of belief is probably highest in the precise demographic you are hoping to engage in discussion. Even if you think they are demonstrably wrong to not believe that, you have to accept that and not insist that they adopt your position before you even start the dialogue.

It would be like an atheist trying to open up a dialogue with a Christian by saying "let us start by first acknowledging that God, or indeed any gods, or indeed the supernatural at large, does not actually exist."

Now I'm not saying that a lack of belief in male privilege is as fundamentally linked to a concern for men's issues as a belief in God is linked to Christianity, but it is still a thing and it is a position people hold and it's not really much of a dialogue if you're insisting the other side has to agree to your worldview before even beginning to talk.

 

[jackelgull]

I didn't say everyone had to agree with my post. I just put it out there, and hoped if people disagreed they would say why. In fact, I'm glad you've disagreed, and you were one of the people I was hoping would post on this thread, since you are one of the more eloquent skeptics of feminism (the movement) on CFC.