The Rise of Rome - A Sid Challenge

Stoertebeker

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The Rise of Rome - A Sid Challenge


RedKi-rr recently asked, if the Rise of Rome scenario would be winnable at the Sid level as Rome. I proposed him to check it out in a shared game. So here we go. It would be nice, if 2-4 other people would sign in, so that we can have nice discussions and make good progress. Anybody interested to participate is welcome. :)

I'd love to play the first 20 turns. By then, we should play 10 turns each.

Settings:

  • Scenario: The Rise of Rome
  • Tribe: Rome
  • Difficulty: Sid
  • AI Aggressiveness: Normal
House rules:

  • Same as for the HoF-games. Except that we will use our spoiler knowledge that we have by experience.
  • + We won't make any use of the first turn diplomacy bug.
  • + No trades with the AI that use the connect-disconnect-trick to get Techs or Lump Sums for free.

Players:
  • Stoertebeker
  • RedKi-rr
  • RickFGS
 
I´m in, love the scenario and SID level seems a good challenge!

Welcome. :)

So some questions I already asked in the strategy discussion thread:

Are you okay with the least aggressive AI setting? I'd prefer that because diplomacy seems getting quite weird with the normal setting, with everybody fighting against everybody.

How do we handle the first turn diplomacy bug? We could get everything out of the AI for an alliance against Carthage. Even cities. Imo it would be wrong to exploit that to that extent. There are several approaches, how we could handle it:

  • Approach 1: We could take workers, cash and the Persian dyes on the first turn for free. We're playing on Sid-Level, so maybe it's fair to give us a little start-up bonus? It would still be gamey, of course.
  • Approach 2: We could sign everybody in against Carthage on the first turn for free, even if we had to pay something for that on the second. And pay them for everything else we want from them.
  • Approach 3: We could do an "as if"- Diplomacy, thus giving the AI on the first turn what it normally would demand on the second for the alliance - this would make AI happier as normal and there would be no risk, that Carthage signs anybody against us.
  • The strict approach would be not to sign alliances at all on the first turn. We would be worse off than we'd be without the bug.

I'm okay with everything, even if I'd feel more comfortable with the first or second one. But I don't want that anybody feels like cheating. Discuss ...
 
It's great! Thank you! Let's begin it!

Sometimes I'm online and could only read, and couldn't answer, I'm sorry for that.

About settings there is a nice discussion in this thread
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=413960&page=1
Actullay reading this forum I find some wondering things (I even didn't expected them when I played in the past) - for example, palace jump. Also coast blocking, well I thought about it but never applied. So we need come to agreement about such things, at least about several of them.
And I'm for the following statement from that thread:
"Even if not covered under exploits listed, please try not to use tactics that take advantage of holes in the game design".
And of course, no reloads, etc.

Personally, I'm for normal AI Aggressiveness. I don't know whether it makes things easier, but as for me - more "standard" settings the better. And...if there is some kind of diplomacy bug at the first turn...Indeed, why not to sign military alliances later?
What do you think?
 
It's great! Thank you! Let's begin it!

Sometimes I'm online and could only read, and couldn't answer, I'm sorry for that.

About settings there is a nice discussion in this thread
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=413960&page=1
Actullay reading this forum I find some wondering things (I even didn't expected them when I played in the past) - for example, palace jump. Also coast blocking, well I thought about it but never applied. So we need come to agreement about such things, at least about several of them.

Most of those exploits aren't interesting for our game anyway. If we come to a point, where we want a Palace Jump, for example (never did one myself) we can discuss.

But some things, like disconnecting ressources, are no cheating for me. Why should Rome not build Warriors or Horsemen to pay 4 gold per shield to upgrade them? It's just as expensive as cash-rushing. HoF-Rules seem sufficient to me.

"Even if not covered under exploits listed, please try not to use tactics that take advantage of holes in the game design".
And of course, no reloads, etc.

Of course.

Personally, I'm for normal AI Aggressiveness. I don't know whether it makes things easier, but as for me - more "standard" settings the better.

I don't know. Least aggressive doesn't make it harder or a lot easier. But in this game, with those two locked wars, we will see a lot of fighting anyway, everybody taking sides in both of those wars. I just find it weird, if the Scyths (already at war with Carthage) attack Egypt and sign in Macedonia, while Alexander convinces the Celts, that Cleopatra has to be punished by gallic swordsmen ... .

And...if there is some kind of diplomacy bug at the first turn...Indeed, why not to sign military alliances later?
What do you think?

That will indeed make the game harder, as we'll have to pay a lot of our cash to get those workers and luxuries from the AI. If we are very unlucky, Carthage will use the bug (actually, I don't know, if it exists for the AI) and signs an alliance against us with everybody. But okay, we can take the strict approach. It will be an additional challenge.
 
No, I mean other bug with disconnected resourses - when you have some agreement with AI and disconnet a resourse (or capital?) and the deal where you give AI lump sum of gpt is broken without reputation hit for you.
I completely agree with the situation above - disconnecting resorses (or trading them away) for upgrading purposes is okay)

I agree that normal aggressive AI can atack when at war, but on other hand it can attack you as well. In such a way I was atacked by Germans once.
 
No, I mean other bug with disconnected resourses - when you have some agreement with AI and disconnet a resourse (or capital?) and the deal where you give AI lump sum of gpt is broken without reputation hit for you.
I completely agree with the situation above - disconnecting resorses (or trading them away) for upgrading purposes is okay)

I agree that normal aggressive AI can atack when at war, but on other hand it can attack you as well. In such a way I was atacked by Germans once.

Actually, it's not so much about us: I'd want to keep everybody in an alliance against Carthage - all the time, no matter what aggressiveness they are. We can need every help against Carthage we can get and we also need trading partners while we don't need Sid AI's jumping in our back while our armies are busy in Africa. Maybe we'll profit from lower AI aggressiveness because AI will be generally more kind. But for me it's more a matter of atmosphere: I just don't like it, if there are so many random wars out there. But of course, we can also go with the standard setting. :)
By the way: It's only now that I understand this disconnect-thing. Yes, we shouldn't use this.
 
I sugest another and more fair 4th alternative, go to the C3C editor and on the "Scenario Properties" -> Players just chech the option to every player including Rome to "Skip 1st turn", and there, the first turn diplomacy bug is now avoided with no advantage to any side (Backup the original .biq before saving).

Players will only be able to set production, manage mood in cities.

As for game exploits the most common in this scenario is Coastal Blocking and milking the AI for money, but i see them as part of the game and real warfare conditions and i´m content with it, if you want, we could leave one square open to enemy invasions on islands but i believe we could "manage" that opening since we are at SID level.

The agression level could be set at "less agressive" instead of "least...", but i think this lever doens´t matter much as the AI will tend to start wars when trying to trade resources and tech and always throws in the Alliance versus X demand, thus all the backstabbing going on, we should use CivAssist to monitor our agreements and the enemy agreements between them.
 
I sugest another and more fair 4th alternative, go to the C3C editor and on the "Scenario Properties" -> Players just chech the option to every player including Rome to "Skip 1st turn", and there, the first turn diplomacy bug is now avoided with no advantage to any side (Backup the original .biq before saving).

Players will only be able to set production, manage mood in cities.

No, that's not an option for me - too much is already planned. :D But okay, we will sign no Alliances nor RoP's (except RoP with the celts - they would always give that for free) on the first turn. So there will be absolutely no bug-benefit for us. I'll take the risk that Carthage does something bad.
All other trades work well. So I'll simply buy all those expensive workers and Persian dyes.

(Now I feel ashamed, that I proposed to cheat. :blush:)

And I think RedKi-rr is right: we should play with normal aggressiveness settings. We don't want anybody to say, that our sensational victory was due to sissy-settings. ;)

As for game exploits the most common in this scenario is Coastal Blocking and milking the AI for money, but i see them as part of the game and real warfare conditions and i´m content with it, if you want, we could leave one square open to enemy invasions on islands but i believe we could "manage" that opening since we are at SID level.

As far as the milking is concerned: If that involves connecting-disconnecting-things, I'm strictly against it. I'd prefer to get AI-money by tech deals (even if they are limited in this scenario, with effectively only two trading partners) and regular map trades.

Regarding coastal blockings, I'd agree to consider them okay - if we want them. Someone in the lost (to be exact: not finished) Carthage Emperor game said: "we only have about 50 turns left in the game, and about 2/3 of our military is tied up in covering islands.";) I don't think that coastal blockades are such a smart move in this Scenario.
 
Strategic Outline

1. Getting the Core ready for the Golden Age

The opening moves will focus on one point: The beginning of the Golden Age. We have 8 productive cities, which are able to produce huge numbers of shields. It would be a shame to go into the GA with a bunch of tiny size 4 and 6 cities, which have to produce workers in the first place, which would still have to grow, thus to use food tiles instead of shield tiles. Our GA will start exactly in turn 16, at 275 BC. By this time, all our italian cities (with the exception of Padua) will be at maximum size and already be able or near to produce 40 SPT (Rome) 30 SPT (Neapolis, Pisae), 20 SPT (Ancona, Canusium) or 15 SPT (Tarentum, Croton), (Padua will have 10).
The opening will use the initial legions to build roads, so that our 20 workers won't waste turns on moving when they could build. We will produce nearly no combat unit in the first 16 turns, but harbours, workers, libraries and courthouses. But with these preparations, we will be able to produce 1 Galley, 2 Horsemen and 1 Catapult - per turn. In the GA we'll have built 20 Galleys, 40 Heavy Cavalrys (as we will have the money to upgrade the Horsemen), and 20 `Catapults plus our initial Legions (and some more) - ready to conquer northern Africa. We'll also have the Great Library or Bacchanalia built in Rome and a Heroic Epic in Ancona, maybe we'll have some nicely growing towns in southern Germany and Hungary.

And this is how it works: Excel Sheet :scan:
[To make that clear: It's not ambition but the joy of making plans that drives me to do such lists. I have to admit, that this is the most detailed I ever did for a game.]

2. Diplomacy

We will buy everyone into an alliance against Carthage. 1. Because we want peace. 2. Because we want to have reliable trading partners that fill our coffers with tons of cash. 3. Because we want Carthage to be distracted and having no one to trade with. 4. Because we want to be able to control who trades with who. (If egypt also joins sides in the Greec-Persian conflict, there's only one possibility for AI's trading techs. As Egypt (which we can not control if it has peace with Macedonia or Persia) normally has nothing to offer (we'll take care of that), every deal of importance will involve our glorious Roman Civilization. (The barbarian tribes cannot receive other Techs than Iron Working, Alphabet, Masonry and Writing from other civs.))
That will be costly, but it will surely pay off. In my last game, Gallic Swordsmen, Teutonic Warriors and Scythian Riders invaded Spain, while Macedonian Galleys sunk Carthagian and the Carthagian Army was stuck half way to Egypt (that got my iron) when my Legions landed near Carthage: That's what we aim. As a nice side-effect, all those tribes will build more military and less settlers - leaving us more space to expand and keeping the required numbers in population and space for victory lower. If someone makes peace, we should buy him (or her) in again instantly.
We'll also have 1 or 2 Scouts around and will trade maps every turn. By experience, mapbrokering alone is good for at least 30 GPT.

3. Military

There will be only one theatre of war for the first 20 turns: Sicily. Carthage will try to conquer Messana. I'll rush a wall (yes, that's 10 shields wasted, I know) and place 2 or 3 Garrisons in there: Fortified behind walls on a hill, they will hopefully fight off all those archers and swordsmen that Carthage will throw against our heroic little outpost. If we're lucky, we even get our first leader there.
Then we take Sicily, triggering our Golden Age. With all those newly recruited troops, we should be able to take Carthago by turn 25. By then it totally depends on what we find in Africa: If we're lucky, most Carthagians are on their way to Egypt so that we can afford to split our forces (given that we have a second army by then), so that one goes southeast and one west. If not, we might have to fight off hordes of Elephants and proceed slowly.

4. Settlement

We aim for luxuries: We need them to make our people partying (to reduce waste in southern Italy) and to be able to go for 100% research, without having to touch the luxury slider. Spices in France, Silks in Hungary, Furs in Germany and Gems on the Sinai Peninsula is what our initial settlers are bound for. (Yet another reason to pull everyone on our side: we have to protect our luxury-routes.) We have to take care not to mess around the ranks of the Italian cities: There's no need for cities without infrastructure, that have to grow until they get productive, if Tarentum and Croton receive 14 instead of 15 SPT because of a lower rank. I'd rather count tiles before settling anywhere near the peninsula, to avoid such a mess. That means that it would be smarter not to conquer Sardinia and Corsica too early (before the GA ends. That also means that we have to give up the dreams of a prospering Roman Po valley or the gold-olive-fish-city east of Rome, or a Roman Dalmatian coast. Luckily enough, our settlers are fastmover and will be able to reach food-rich places quickly.

5. Technology

We are two techs up compared to everybody. We'll try to keep the leading position, at least until we get the GL (hopefully). Even on Sid, that is possible. We'll try to be first on Philosophy. If we trade our first two techs wisely, we can seriously hurt Macedonian and Persian tech speed. The other civs will most likely go for Monarchy, Tactics, Currency (after we sold them maths), Astronomy, Construction and Military Training first. So we have a real chance to get Philosophy first. Imperialism is the goal. Everything else is secondary (even if nice, like Fire Catapults or Engineering).


Comments? Suggestions? Questions? :)
 
3. Military

There will be only one theatre of war for the first 20 turns: Sicily. Carthage will try to conquer Messana. I'll rush a wall (yes, that's 10 shields wasted, I know) and place 2 or 3 Garrisons in there: Fortified behind walls on a hill, they will hopefully fight off all those archers and swordsmen that Carthage will throw against our heroic little outpost.

Agree on the tactic of fortifying Messana, and i have another sugestion: leave one galley on Messana and settle a city on the tip south of Croton to allow instant reinforcing of the sycilian roman city, this will not mess much with the rank since Messana as the volcano for shield ouput.
 
Agree on the tactic of fortifying Messana, and i have two other sugestions:

1) Leave one galley on Messana and settle a city on the tip south of Tarentum to allow instant reinforcing of the sycilian roman city,

This is a damned good idea. :goodjob: With that harbour we can later even ship troops to Africa in only 1 turn (board ship in the new town, unload in Messana, move to Marsala (3), board ship, disembark or shiphop/unload in Carthage. If we get Rax in the new town, we can upgrade our fresh horsemen there, then do the shiphop-thing, so that we'd even have 5 movements on roads in Africa left: The more I think about it, the more I like it. That will speed up our progress in Africa enormously.
 
Yep, thats somewhat what i had in mind, i love using the cities as movement multipliers, we should also consider settling that two tile island east of tarentum close to the macedonian border to use as a warning sentry against incoming enemy shiping in case Macedon/Persia decides to declare on us sometime in the future, of course this is not a priority.

Another sugestion is getting a scout on north africa, maybe try to land it in Cyrenaica to rush the goody hut hidden in an oasis on the deep desert, it would pop us a free tech probably.

Getting the Lighthouse always seems to help out a lot in this scenario, since most wars will be in the med....

In sum, you´re overall strategy is almost flawless as far as i can see, i don´t seem to have many things to point out....
 
I also agree with all these points)
Espesially in case when they were so deeply researched)

Aslo i'm for blocking the coast at least with military. But I'm also for blocking the coast with slaves, What do you think? These slaves can be used later for increasaing the population percent.
Or do you count this as an exploit?
 
I'm glad that you both don't seem to feel "overloaded" by all my plans. Sometimes I tend to be a knowitall - just let me know if you feel overrun.

(By the way, RickFGS, I really liked that you've posted those map picture (even if you have removed it already). I'll also try to integrate more pictures.

I also agree with all these points)
Espesially in case when they were so deeply researched)

Aslo i'm for blocking the coast at least with military. But I'm also for blocking the coast with slaves, What do you think? These slaves can be used later for increasaing the population percent.
Or do you count this as an exploit?

Hm, no, as it is allowed for the HoF. To be true, I haven't yet used this tactics excessively: So what will AI do if we block, for example, the sicilian coast: will their galleys look for other locations to unload? Or just stay around? If it's the former, I'd see no sense in having masses of workers on every coastal tile. Why not just letting them land their troops (they will most probably land on sicily where we will always have some troops arriving) and we'll finish them with our Heavy Cavs and Legions, supported by Catapults? We will get promotions and hopefully some armies out of it while our industrious workers and slaves can be productive and serve our goal: Expansion!

I'll soon post some pictures of the first moves. Or should I wait so that other people get the chance to join before the action starts?
 
If RickFGS don't mind we should start, I think. Anyway you will play these first turns) And during the first round (Stoertebeker, me, RickFGS) we could add players into our team. What do you think?
 
Let´s start! Yeah, i did post a map screenshot, but i removed it because the invasion of Leptis Magna to cut off Carthage´s Ivory wasn´t that great since War Elephants don´t require ivory anyway (somehow i thought they did, but then i realized i was wrong and removed part of my original post). Agree on leaving some islands opening for landings and using them as Leader fishing.
 
@RickFGS: Yes, that also were my thoughts. Plus, if we conquer Carthago soon, the bigger western half of their empire will be cut off of Ivory anyway, while the eastern part will suffer heavy corruption.:)

Okay, I have played the first turns.

As promised, I post some pictures to document what I have done so far. (As it seems a convention to spoil pictures in these forums, I'll do it.) If interested in the very details, just look into the excel file I linked in the "Strategic Outline" post. I behaved very close to it.

350 BC: Pictures of our Legions, that should learn to do real work, before they may prove their honour in battle:

Spoiler :


(Canusium was of course changed to Worker after taking this screenshot.
Note that two Garrisons (the one in Croton is needed for happiness purposes in the city this turn (while we have Spice in the next one) will board the ship to Messana next turn - while our Legions from there will road some tiles. Also note, that I shipped the Neapolis Garrison in the northern direction: it will hopefully capture some Carthagian workers on Corsica and Sardinia. The Neapolitan settler heads south to board a ship bound for Egypt. Accompanied by a Legion, it will try to claim the Gems on the Sinai peninsula.
-----------


Also did a lot of Diplomacy during the first turn:
  • Celts: Embassy, RoP. After moving the settler to make their maps cheaper, I get 2 Workers, World Map and 50 Cash for Alphabet and Masonry.
  • Persia: Dyes and Worker for World Map, 150 and 5 GPT
  • Macedonia: Worker for World Map, 4 and 3 GPT
  • Egypt: Worker for World Map, 33 and 1 GPT
I didn't sell the contact around, because I wanted to form an alliance with the Celts in the second turn: I wanted do this in exchange of the remaining techs they lack (Writing and Iron Working). If I had traded the contact in the first turn, someone else surely would have given them the techs.

345 BC:

Spoiler :


On this Screenshot you can see what I used the slaves for: 3 of them have been merged to Ancona, which is a great city but would have grown much too slow. With the added Slaves it can work the two mined gold tiles, the silver mine, the olive mine (;)) the fish and the wheat. That gives us 13 shields and 20 beakers per turn. The other slaves mine the wheat, so that the city will have 15 shields as soon as our luxuries come in and the "We love the ..." party starts.

We also see Barbs invading our territory - and blocking the way of our Citizen (currently in Pisae) to Germany. Our Reg Archer tries to kill the warrior - and dies. So the legion has to do it. It will also kill the other Warrior (that now is right NW to it) in the next turn and after a pause to recover, it will seize one barb camp, while our vet Archer takes on the other one (that is located near to the southern Barb unit).
-----------


Spoiler :

That's a fine location for our first Luxury-Colony: Bonus food and located next to a river. Will build a scout that can explore northern Germany and the Baltic coast.
-----------

The second turn finally saw us forming of a big alliance against Carthage - to a heavy price: Our treasury is drained after the following deals:
  • Celts: Get their WM for 40 G.
  • Macedonia: RoP for 3 + 2 GPT; get the alliance for WM, contact w. Celts, 100 and 5 GPT.
  • Persia: RoP for 2 GPT; then form alliance for contact w. Celts, WM, 90 and 11 GPT.
  • Egypt: RoP; form alliance for contact w. Celts, WM, iron, 40 and 1 GPT. (They will need the iron to be able to destroy some Carthagian War Elephants.)
  • Celts: Donate contact to Carthage; get Alliance and their 41 G for Iron Working and Writing.
After this deals, we had only around 300 G in our coffers and ran a heavy deficit (around -80 per turn as we resarch at 100%). But this will change soon. :)

In the next turn some Num Mercs, Swordsmen and Archers have been killed at the (rushed) walls of Messana, where our Garrisons defend effectively with a value of 6. We didn't lose a single unit while destroying 5 or 6 of them.
Rushed Harbors in the fairly corrupt towns of Tarentum and Croton after they had amassed 10 shields each.
Also founded a city next to the silks in Hungary, so that we now have 4 Luxuries - enough to calm size 6 towns.

Some pictures from 315 BC:

Spoiler :

You wouldn't believe it, but with exactly this setup, Rome has produced 3 workers in 3 turns until now. The program will assign the seventh' citizen to the mined iron tile, what makes 9 shields, plus we get 1 more because we are a lucky industrious tribe. :hammer: Now, Rome builds a library.
By the way: The original plan was to pre-build a library in Ancona after finishing the intial Scout and the Legion. But then I realized that we might not reach Literature soon enough. So I ordered to build a citizen there (it will be replaced by a Celtic slave).
-----------

Spoiler :

Our pirates have been successful: after having captured one worker at Corsica, which is already busy to improve our shield output in Italy, they captured 2 others on Sardinia as you see.
-----------

Spoiler :

That's the situation on Sicily. I placed our harbor city not at the southern-most tip of the boot, because in the current location it has the advantage that fast units from Neapolis, Canusium and Tarentum can reach it in 1 turn, slow ones in two turns - and still upgrade/or board at the same turn. We still can get to Messana in 1 turn by ship. As I don't plan to let this city grow much (I think I'll pop-rush Rax after having build the warrior), it doesn't matter that it's so close to Croton.
-----------


Spoiler :

Our third luxury city will deliver soon - and provoke parties in all size 6 cities with one MP, or 2 in the towns where I rushed the harbors. :rockon:
-----------


Spoiler :

A CivAssist overview of our several diplomatic activities: After having sold contacts, world maps (we were first to meet both: Goth' and Scythians :)) and Math to everyone, most AI's are totally drained off cash. Macedonia still has around 33 GPT to offer at this point. But as Currency is worth more, I think it's better to wait a bit to sell it. I'll have a close look on when Macedonia finishes it first tech: by then I'll wait at most 3 turns so that there is no risk that it gets Currency by itself.
Note that I gave away all of our second Iron to the Celts: They will need it to do some damage to the Carthagians in spain. We can build a colony in the Alps as soon as we need some. Later we can hold some workers ready to disconnect-connect iron in italy.
-----------

I'll play some more tonight. This was just to give you an impression of what is going on.
 
Very well played, but i´d put the "Boot City" right on the land´s end, but oh well, i guess that way the units can reach it faster...the disadvantage is that a galley makes only one trip that way, while it could make two (8 troops) after the discovery of Astro...

So no iron? sweet, we can make warriors for future upgrades, maybe get one of a barracks city do it after the improvements are done, maybe Canusium...

Can you boat a scout on that party going to Sinai?, you could drop him at Cyrenaica maybe and make him go to the goody hut on the deep desert...

Superb micromanaging.

Pisae is growing in 1, yet it is making a Harbor, switch to worker instead and start on Courthouse, use the new worker to chop the forest nearby.

There is also a goody hut in Iberia near nowadays Porto city, maybe if a scout gets there it would pop us a free tech...
 
Very nice! Actually, I'm amazed)) Could you please upload a save too? Not necessary the final.
 
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