The Road to Guantanamo

[Kosez]

I've just seen this film by Michael Winterbottom on Ljubljana film festival (LIFFE).
Here are links: 1. 2.

It made me thinking. Is western civilization really so ˝civilized˝, democratic and humane as we think we are? Cause things US is doing in Guantanamo and Iraq and elsewhere, and things UK is doing, and probably other western countries also, are no better than things we were doing in middle ages. We now call middle age a dark age. It sounds a bit ironic to me.

We try to show to the world that we are not only economically and technologically superior, but that we reach higher levels of social development. We're trying to convince the world, that we are no longer familiar with talion principles, that we are no longer ruled by our primitive nature, only force we obey is the force of The Rule of Law and Human Rights.

But is that true? We showed very recently, that we are still barbaric when we feel like it. We still like vengeance. We still like torture. We still like wars. We still like to see other people suffer.

The biggest problem with all that is, that most of us will never admit that, nor to ourselves nor to others. If we won't admit we have this ˝mental disease˝, we will not be cured from it. And we'll keep on torturing the whole world with our meek and kind nature.

 

[Captain Planet]

Ethnocentrism pervades every facet of Western Civilization. We are in a peculiar age where we tout multiculturalism but do not provide for or allow proper representation. Who makes up the majority of the political ruling class in the Western world? Meanwhile, those with serious political power are often in power for far too long. There must be a grassroots change in Western Democracy if we are going to be able to address the inability of few to understand the plight of many.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

We are a bit more civilized than flag-burning barbarians who seek for a reason to feel insulted, but when we feel threatened, to hell with civilization.

 

[Captain Planet]

We are a bit more civilized than flag-burning barbarians who seek for a reason to feel insulted, but when we feel threatened, to hell with civilization.

Forgive me, but coming from a German whose demographics do not in any way, shape, or form reflect a want or desire to understand and coexist with other cultures, your opinion seems remarkably racist.

 

[Phlegmak]

The road to Guantanamo is paved with good intentions.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

What makes it racist ? I didn't say all Muslims or Arabs are barbarians, just some of them are.
I wouldn't call people who call for revenge because of some silly cartoons civilized. By our standards they are barbarians, but we delude ourselves if we think we are much different.

Btw: I am not a German. I am borm here, but my parents are immigrants from the former Yugoslavia.

 

[Captain Planet]

What makes it racist ? I didn't say all Muslims or Arabs are barbarians, just some of them are.
I wouldn't call people who call for revenge because of some silly cartoons civilized. By our standards they are barbarians, but we delude ourselves if we think we are much different.

Btw: I am not a German. I am borm here, but my parents are immigrants from the former Yugoslavia.

More importantly, you didn't even bother to differentiate between who is a barbarian. You made a bold, generalized statement.

And you don't even bother to again: "By our standards" Who exactly is "our"? Or is this something you would expect those of similiar intellect to understand only?

Like I said: Ethnocentrism. And you're no different.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

A barbarian is anyone who would kill for his religion, or who ignores human rights
and "our"standards are the standards of secular countries.

 

[Winner]

I've just seen this film by Michael Winterbottom on Ljubljana film festival (LIFFE).
Here are links: 1. 2.

It made me thinking. Is western civilization really so ˝civilized˝, democratic and humane as we think we are? Cause things US is doing in Guantanamo and Iraq and elsewhere, and things UK is doing, and probably other western countries also, are no better than things we were doing in middle ages. We now call middle age a dark age. It sounds a bit ironic to me.

We try to show to the world that we are not only economically and technologically superior, but that we reach higher levels of social development. We're trying to convince the world, that we are no longer familiar with talion principles, that we are no longer ruled by our primitive nature, only force we obey is the force of The Rule of Law and Human Rights.

But is that true? We showed very recently, that we are still barbaric when we feel like it. We still like vengeance. We still like torture. We still like wars. We still like to see other people suffer.

The biggest problem with all that is, that most of us will never admit that, nor to ourselves nor to others. If we won't admit we have this ˝mental disease˝, we will not be cured from it. And we'll keep on torturing the whole world with our meek and kind nature.

We should be kind to our enemies, is that what you're saying?

I don't give a damn if some terrorists are tortured in secret prisons. They deserve it.

I don't understand this moral degeneration in the Western world. Where is the self-confidence it had few decades ago? For last few years, all I hear is how is the West bad, corrupt, hypocritical, evil and inhuman. Such attitudes only aid our enemies.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

We should be kind to our enemies, is that what you're saying?

I don't give a damn if some terrorists are tortured in secret prisons. They deserve it.

See ? This is what I meant with "we are not much different" and "to hell with civilization".
Is it right ? No it isn't. It is wrong and against the principles of our society to torture someon even if he is guilty.
Your post just shows that our constitutions aren't even worth the ink...

 

[Winner]

See ? This is what I meant with "we are not much different" and "to hell with civilization".
Is it right ? No it isn't. It is wrong and against the principles of our society to torture someon even if he is guilty.
Your post just shows that our constitutions aren't even worth the ink...

Another idealist...

Our constitutions protect us, not our enemies. Our enemies want to destroy us and they abuse the freedom and rights we enjoy. It is in our best interest to protect ourselves by any means necessary.

 

[warpus]

Another idealist...

Our constitutions protect us, not our enemies. Our enemies want to destroy us and they abuse the freedom and rights we enjoy. It is in our best interest to protect ourselves by any means necessary.

And this includes locking up innocent people in secret prisons and torturing them?

 

[Winner]

And this includes locking up innocent people in secret prisons and torturing them?

No.

(10 chars)

 

[warpus]

No.

(10 chars)

Good, so unless they've been proven guilty, let's not do that

 

[REDY]

I was also interested about it.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=158531

 

[Stylesjl]

Civillization gets more civilised every day. Injustice just tends to be broadcast even more. Now we are aware that there is so much injustice in the world.

Guantanamo is a disgrace to America and the rest of western civillization.

 

[amadeus]

How come nobody makes a film about the rest of Cuba?

Anyway, this film is invalid because the war is not between two civilized parties, only between a civilized group of nations and an uncivilized group of nations and paramilitary organizations. We are not the ones responsible for this conflict, though we are the ones responsible for resolving it.

 

[Phlegmak]

How come nobody makes a film about the rest of Cuba?

People have! I saw Castro in San Francisco, and man, it was so worshipful of Fidel Castro as to be practically fellating him.

 

[nonconformist]

We should be kind to our enemies, is that what you're saying?

I don't give a damn if some terrorists are tortured in secret prisons. They deserve it.

I don't understand this moral degeneration in the Western world. Where is the self-confidence it had few decades ago? For last few years, all I hear is how is the West bad, corrupt, hypocritical, evil and inhuman. Such attitudes only aid our enemies.

As a former member of the Eastern Block, I'd have expected that you, or someone in your position would be amongst the first to denounce camps for the indefinite concentration and torture of untried and uncondemned opolitical prisoners.

 

[Phlegmak]

As a former member of the Eastern Block, I'd have expected that you, or someone in your position would be amongst the first to denounce camps for the indefinite concentration and torture of untried and uncondemned opolitical prisoners.

If you're against that sort of thing, why do you use a former Soviet premier as your avatar?