The Romans (Industrious-Deity series)

[obsolete]

You named the city next to the Incense, Silk City.
The resource in the forest next to the Tuna City is Silk.

Well…. I said I was tired..

So, if you were gonna start over knowing about that southern starting location, do you think it'd be better to move your initial settler there?

No, I would NOT bother starting over. But if I had to, you have to realize animals attack at turn 5, and barbs are out super fast, and I would have to move through vegatation forcing slower movements anyway even if it were some HoF map where we have none of those R.I.P. risks. That’s a lot of lost turns even when moving what seems to be short distances.

 

[Boodler]

Hello !

Anyone can tell me which mod is installed in this game that shows for example "City X can hurry granary for 1 population with 12 hammers overflow and 1 unhappy for 13 turns"
and "X city will grow to size y, borders about to expand, someone has 9 gold / turn to trade" etc ?

Seems very very useful, especially if it also lets you know if a city will assign a spy specialist.

 

[Grey Fox]

I think this game proved the weaknesses of the Industrious trait quite well.
First, the trait requires a good production capital. Second, you have a harder time getting the GP's you want!

Your negative tone seem to indicate this game is a lost cause. Is there any hope for a turn-around? Will you be able to win?

 

[vanatteveldt]

What's wrong with settling a GM? Extra money pays for maintenance, and food never hurts...?

 

[royal62184]

Hello !

Anyone can tell me which mod is installed in this game that shows for example "City X can hurry granary for 1 population with 12 hammers overflow and 1 unhappy for 13 turns"
and "X city will grow to size y, borders about to expand, someone has 9 gold / turn to trade" etc ?

Seems very very useful, especially if it also lets you know if a city will assign a spy specialist.

Bug Mod. Just search for it to find the link I don't have it in front of me.

 

[noto2]

The industrious trait is not weak. It's also particularly powerful with Augustus Ceasar due to the forum UB. There is incredible synergy there between getting more wonders and more GP. The reason Obsolete is having a difficult time is that his start was particularly bad for an ind leader and he said he wouldn't use his early military. A start that is particularly bad for any trait can make a game near impossible. Imagine if you are Toku and get stuck on an island chain with no one nearby to attack...good luck, or if you are a philosophical leader and start with tons of brown land, no extra food for specialists. If, however, you do not have a good hammer capital as an ind. leader, you need to found a good hammer city as your first priority.

 

[pi-r8]

TImagine if you are Toku and get stuck on an island chain with no one nearby to attack...good luck, or if you are a philosophical leader and start with tons of brown land, no extra food for specialists.

Anyone else find it rather humorous that Toku is screwed if he starts on an island like Japan?

 

[Gwynnja]

The reason Obsolete is having a difficult time is that his start was particularly bad for an ind leader and he said he wouldn't use his early military.

Yeah, that and the fact that he's playing on DEITY

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

I think the start was your standard capital start, 3 hills, and 4 food resources, probably better in that respect, as it was 2 corn, 2 clams and 1 happy resource.

Only trouble is 1 hill was on another island, trade off 2 irrigated corn whip city. Capital isn't usually the best spot for Iron works city or Wonder spam.

One thing I feel you should have mentioned is why the clam first, and not run yourself or others down. You should have said, its the Commerce first, then the food. I think we all understand, your a excellent player on higher levels, a bit of reasoning for decisions could help others.

I.E. "the Clams give me 4 food/5 with Lighthouse, and 2 commerce. Very important to early teching. As well, I started with Fishing, so I'm working with my traits/starting tech's. Agriculture requires X turns of teching, and then building a worker, Y turns and improving Z turns BEFORE its available. Work boats need W turns and are available Immediately for resource improvement"

Now, granted your probably aiming at a higher level of player/reader, who should intrinsically understand reasons (R Rolo replied in affirmative to move)

On Rome, you'd only end up with +2 food pre biology working all 5 hills and stone, moving 1 east, I agree with assessment, but if it was capital starting position, you'd have gone coast??

15 Hammers from 5 grassland mines = 22 hammers in wonder production. (Industrious)
12 hammers from 4 grassland mines = 18 Hammers in wonder production.

Hmm Opp's I've nerfed my own example, 1 free plains hill, for 1 food loss... Umm 2 citizens actually.

Anyway that's 4 or 5 extra food you need to gain, and 2*pop you need to grow, ie 1 works grassland farm other works grassland hill.

Pigs is factored into stone/growth.

Anyway, I enjoy reading these, Question?

1) Why not let Rammesses II settle a minor city for you, and you settle the Uber sites on land mass, reduce colonial expenses, and take after he's developed it for you, or don't you want to give a foothold in 'your landmasses'

2) Reduction of land target tiles...Again I've answered my own question, or not.

ROMANUS VICTOR.

 

[obsolete]

I think this game proved the weaknesses of the Industrious trait quite well.

Hmm....

Well I'm pretty sure if I went financial we could find certain angles which prove that financial is pretty week too then!

Your negative tone seem to indicate this game is a lost cause. Is there any hope for a turn-around? Will you be able to win?

We shall see, it definitely wasn't the best of events. But I could have had the entire world dog-pile on me, so it could have been worse!

What's wrong with settling a GM? Extra money pays for maintenance, and food never hurts...?

It's just that the techs zip by much faster, and because I wasn't planning on going into Rep any time soon, this diminishes your returns a bit. It's always a great trade for swapping one GM for another (when it works!).

Anyone else find it rather humorous that Toku is screwed if he starts on an island like Japan?

I find him to be screwed no matter what his start is...

I think the start was your standard capital start, 3 hills, and 4 food resources, probably better in that respect, as it was 2 corn, 2 clams and 1 happy resource.

Only trouble is 1 hill was on another island, trade off 2 irrigated corn whip city. Capital isn't usually the best spot for Iron works city or Wonder spam.

One thing I feel you should have mentioned is why the clam first, and not run yourself or others down. You should have said, its the Commerce first, then the food. I think we all understand, your a excellent player on higher levels, a bit of reasoning for decisions could help others.

I.E. "the Clams give me 4 food/5 with Lighthouse, and 2 commerce. Very important to early teching. As well, I started with Fishing, so I'm working with my traits/starting tech's. Agriculture requires X turns of teching, and then building a worker, Y turns and improving Z turns BEFORE its available. Work boats need W turns and are available Immediately for resource improvement"

Now, granted your probably aiming at a higher level of player/reader, who should intrinsically understand reasons (R Rolo replied in affirmative to move)

On Rome, you'd only end up with +2 food pre biology working all 5 hills and stone, moving 1 east, I agree with assessment, but if it was capital starting position, you'd have gone coast??

15 Hammers from 5 grassland mines = 22 hammers in wonder production. (Industrious)
12 hammers from 4 grassland mines = 18 Hammers in wonder production.

Hmm Opp's I've nerfed my own example, 1 free plains hill, for 1 food loss... Umm 2 citizens actually.

Anyway that's 4 or 5 extra food you need to gain, and 2*pop you need to grow, ie 1 works grassland farm other works grassland hill.

Pigs is factored into stone/growth.

Anyway, I enjoy reading these, Question?

1) Why not let Rammesses II settle a minor city for you, and you settle the Uber sites on land mass, reduce colonial expenses, and take after he's developed it for you, or don't you want to give a foothold in 'your landmasses'

2) Reduction of land target tiles...Again I've answered my own question, or not.

ROMANUS VICTOR.

About the workboats, the commerce was a SMALL bias for doing that. But there were a few other reasons. They HAD to get hooked up SOMETIME, and at that moment I felt I could squeeze them in THEN, and not have to worry about any tricky que situations LATER that may arise. My workers can always improve any land-tiles later, but my capital could be stuck doing something where I don't have the luxury do this-or-that without risking something.

I am a bit confused over the question about Rome, since I had no city called Rome. Do you mean that stone-spot? The main reason coastal was even considered was because of the Great Lighthouse. We can't get it when inland. And even if we own it from another city, we wouldn't get the trade routes which would be very counter-intuitive. This is the problem...

As for Ramesses, I have no interest in getting fancy, letting his deity culture swamp me, all so that I can try to capture his cities later. There was also a chance he could vassal to someone much stronger than myself making these risky gambits even worse.

 

[obsolete]

Turns 200-210

Spoiler :

There really was not much to say during this phase. I was asked to join a few wars, but of course I denied. I am more tempted to deny now because I am thinking of going for a peaceful victory. Space-Race will be a bit hard without more production. I think I will try to eeek out some leverage from this industrious by saving a few hammers on the U.N. haha. Sounds good for the moment as I am sharing the #1 religion in the world. Though I’ll still have a lot of converting work to do.

I could have tried to get globe-t built in my draft city but.. I was too busy going after badly needed courthouse, etc. Hmm, my big advantage point of riles has sort of passed by now. Oh well, maybe we’ll go that route in a future game.

Notes: Gilga declared war on Wang. Saladin DoWs on Catherine.

Also, I finished a custom’s house in the capital. Too bad they don’t get a 100% bonus with the stone resource anymore.

Turns 210-220

Spoiler :

At turn #214 I got a notice that Suchi Co was founded in Damascus. Well then, now my extra merchant really is being wasted. I can’t even get THAT now? Arghhh…. Still we keep getting stomped on at every corner this game.

Also, thanks to normal-speed, I only just NOW met up with Brennus. Well, better late than never I suppose *caugh *caugh. And he’s:

-4 traded with worst enemies
-3 upset at my heathen religion.

Well Jesus! I just met him how the hell can I tell and know these things? That’s pretty REDICULOUS.

Also we got an random event, +1 for Gilga, with 50% chance for -1. I took the gamble, and of course, I get the -1 for Wang Kon. Just typical……..

Other than that.. I did get a great-engineer. I decided to settle him into my capital. It’s badly needed.

Notes: I really need to get my IronWorks up, but I don’t even have the tech for it yet. Grrrrrrrrrr.

Turns 220-230

Spoiler :

We met Hammurabi who is a member created by Gilga.

I also signed a defensive pact with Saladin. A little protection here is a good thing. Of course it may also force me into a war too, but what can you do…

Also, I ended up doing a lot of strategic power-trades this turn-set. So I actually ended up catching up in a rather lot of techs, and got some great relation boosts. Now all that self-research on cheaper techs is paying off huge. I just may gave a great chance yet. I also ran a bulb and will be the first to electricity, so I have a shot at winning the first media wonder. Let’s see what goes wrong now…

Turns 230-240

Spoiler :

Alright, that electricity shot blew up in my face. An AI ended up getting it shortly after me, and then another. And sadly, my spot was not strong enough to compete with the deity late-stage wonder bonuses. I ended up getting beat when close to the finish. Oh well… at least I got some gold from the thing, but that really sucks.

Also note, even with stone and all the other bonuses, it would still take me 3 turns with my overflow just to finish the Moai statues. I was debating on getting this to try and fix some of these plaging problems, but I backed out of this plan anyway because I was still hoping to add IronWorks with Oxford in in the capital.

Well, now that just about every frieken thing has blown up in our faces, on to plan X… then Y… and Z. We head for Radio, and try to leverage our traits again by going for all 3 media wonders up that route. If you don’t at first succeed… try again.

Turns 240-250

Spoiler :

Signed a def pact with Catherine. She’s a big back-stabber, so if you cant beat them, join them. Ironically, SHE was the one who came to ME and asked for it. Interesting how that game-mechanic happened.

After I got my Radio tech, this was what the standings looked like….
So, our plan is holding steady now…. Just… need to see what blows up in our face again…

Turns 250-260

Spoiler :

Oh Jeeze, Catherine came out and demanded my precious radio. I also made a trade to another AI for steam. Unfortunately I really was falling asleep at the wheel here and made a very serious mistake.

I was going to burn off one of the GM’s for a golden age, meaning my three cities working on 3 different wonders would have won the race. (And I'd be able to switch civics free). Unfortunately I only realized I forgot to do this when near the finish before I started. So what happened was… I lost the Rock & Roll wonder too! Just short of finishing it… after all that! Geezus… I gota stop playing when tired.

And it looks like the Eiffel may be in trouble too. I keep underestimating the late-stage wonder bonuses deity gets. I had every one locked up, after all our short-falls this game… and what do I do? I just manage to find another way to make sure we hit another brick wall.

At least, we will grab the Cristo here. So that’s a FREE spiritual trait. Actually, the real trait that the game cant find a way to screw us over in now.

Next Wonder.. The U.N. which I timed the tech perfectly here.

Turns 260-270

Spoiler :

Damn, damn, damn. We lost the Eiffel tower on the same turn we completed it. Looks like I SHOULDN’T have given in to Catherine’s DEMANDS of radio earlier. But the problem is if I HADN’T given in to her demand, I could have had an even worse blow-up in my face right now. It seems…. We’re just constantly doomed on this map with one bad-beat after another…

Anyhow… I’ve had it. I’m not taking any more of this sh!t! From the mass gold from missing Eiffel and Rock & Roll, I switch to U.S. so I can rush the U.N. with 5352 gold to trim off another 8 turns just in-case.

Notes: Next turn I compete with Saladin for Secretary.
Gilga and Wang stab me in the back by voting for Saladin, but the rest stick to my side. I win with 712 votes out of 531 required.

And the bad news is… Catherine beats one of my cities to Hollywood AGAIN! Arggh. Either she’s using some GE’s to rush, or it’s those insane deity bonuses at work again. I was in quite a lead to Mass Media… this shouldn’t be happening!

Turns 270-280

Spoiler :

My first resolution I kick in is for Single Currency. I know in ahead that EVERYONE is going to vote yes, and so I know it’s not a wasted decision. I really want to get all my hard earned TR boosters running at max efficiency.

Also, since we are done with MM, it’s time to do another trade again. Hell, I’d even GIVE this tech away to AI’s just so I can obsolete their AP bonuses. Haha!

Also, my tech now is going through the roof, not bad considering we are NOT FINANCIAL nor did we even build a SINGLE COTTAGE all game. Put that in your pipe and smoke it critics…..

I also gave tones of cash away to AI’s in order to get their relations up to me without increasing WFYABTA or worst enemy trades.

Turns 280-290

Spoiler :

Hmm, I next went after Open Markets, but it failed. Oh well…I knew there was a chance of that happening.

And then I went for the diplo victory. Unfortunately this also has blown up in my face. Despite Gilga has the largest points by far combined with him and his vassal, Saladin is being chosen as my contender. This means my work at getting him friendly with me is all for not. I wanted him voting for me and we could have had this all wrapped up by now.. Instead… another big set-back.

Also we had more problems. Due to missing circumnaviation bonus, and also the slow pace of standard-speed, my boat of spies didn’t make it in time to convert Brennus until last turn, which means his votes were not allowed to count for me. I’ll have to wait till next time again.

Arghhhh %^$!@#$

With all the bad luck that’s happened, at least THIS event is something I am rather welcoming very much! It’s so handy to have lots of cash on hand… I’m not even bothering to tech anymore, because projects are non-rushable anyway.

Turns 290-300

Spoiler :

I gave Saladin three thousand gold to make peace with Brennus. I really don’t want him taking more cities off the guy who is going to vote for me now. And I really don’t need my contender grabbing more cities either!

Also, victory screen shows Catherine in the lead, and she’s getting quite some space-pieces done already. Ramesses’ culture victory is a joke here. He did ok getting 2 cities to legendary, but totally fouled up his third city really bad. There is no chance I have to worry about it for now… and yet he’s still off running cultural civics despite the game will be over before he can even have a chance. Buwahaha.

I just don’t understand how Firaxis could make such a stupid AI… No wonder they need such ridiculous bonuses, they are outright atrocious players.

Now, my real worry is trying to play my diplomacy just right before Catherine sets off doom’s-day.

Note. On turn #299 Brennus DoW’s on Wang. This is NOT want I wanted…

 

[Joshua368]

I thought the AI doesn't get direct production bonuses for world wonders?

I could certainly be mistaken but I think I heard that somewhere.

 

[Grey Fox]

I thought the AI doesn't get direct production bonuses for world wonders?

I could certainly be mistaken but I think I heard that somewhere.

You are right, they don't.

 

[royal62184]

I thought I read in a post somewhere that they do in fact get era bonus, like a extra X% per era which does get applied to wonders. I could be mistaken but I thought there was a thread where it was tested in WB. I'm pretty sure it is small but by the time you get to fifth of sixth era it starts becoming significant. Maybe obsolete can clear up exactly what he is talking about.

 

[Gliese 581]

I thought the AI doesn't get direct production bonuses for world wonders?

I could certainly be mistaken but I think I heard that somewhere.

They get a 5% discount on it (and all builds) per era. So 5% classic, 5% medieval etc.

 

[royal62184]

And it stacks right? But in the ancient era it is even with the human is that right? And does it apply to technology, growth of cities and stuff of that nature?

 

[Gliese 581]

And it stacks right? But in the ancient era it is even with the human is that right? And does it apply to technology, growth of cities and stuff of that nature?

I don't know if it covers more than production, you'd have to hope Dan chime in or search for a thread on the subject. It stacks yes and wonder costs stay at 1.00 regardless of level in the ancient era so you always have equal opportunity on getting Stonehenge if you and an AI both start with Mysticism for example.

 

[Grey Fox]

Oh right, there's an Era bonus too.

 

[obsolete]

I don't know if it covers more than production, you'd have to hope Dan chime in or search for a thread on the subject. It stacks yes and wonder costs stay at 1.00 regardless of level in the ancient era so you always have equal opportunity on getting Stonehenge if you and an AI both start with Mysticism for example.

Equal opportunity is never gong to happen because the AI already gets a worker from the start. He also has a second settler from the start so they can settle right ontop of stone if they want, haha. They also start with all the first level techs so they can road right away. And.. they start with 4 archers and a scout, so not even any need to build defense or anything.

So no, you'll never get equal opportunity. Firaxis would never allow it.

The only thing I'm not SURE yet, is if the Era bonuses apply to projects or not. I bet it does.

 

[Gliese 581]

Equal opportunity is never gong to happen because the AI already gets a worker from the start. He also has a second settler from the start so they can settle right ontop of stone if they want, haha. They also start with all the first level techs so they can road right away. And.. they start with 4 archers and a scout, so not even any need to build defense or anything.

So no, you'll never get equal opportunity. Firaxis would never allow it.

The only thing I'm not SURE yet, is if the Era bonuses apply to projects or not. I bet it does.

Well I obviously meant in terms of hammers needed. There's no equal opportunity of intelligence either as the artifical variety is thoroughly incompetent compared to a human player. Which is why we so frequently get the wonders anyhow.