The Tribal Elders of Delphi

[1889]

Didn't see that, that is really good news. Because when we go to war we will have captured city unhappiness to deal with as well.

The war calculation is a guess based on experience. The city has a defense of only 18 so it isn't that tough. I think 3 catapults could batter it in 2 turns, then 2 ground units could probably capture it. Bow men are extra insurance and the other 2 swords are to protect us from any Siam counter attack while we are besieging the city. I've never played Assyria but the siege engine looks really nice.

The troop strength I proposed is an estimate based on experience. I would re-evaluate in 30 turns before we make the final decision to declare. Also if we could get open borders, a walk through their territory to inspect defenses would be very valuable.

 

[MiguelBazil]

((They don't seem to take us in bad account, so we could try open borders as soon as tech allows. What about social policies? What should be our goal? We've open 2 already, so we should probably complete one of them?))

 

[1889]

Good thinking. Next policy in about 12 turns. Selecting Monarchy will give us 4-5 happiness.

There are many many ways to get happiness and anything else we might need. There is no need to fixate on war as the only solution to any problem, it is only one of many strategies.

 

[Melda]

Here follows the advice of Melodios, son of Melda of Islandia.

1) Khirra: A new worker will be ready for us in 3 days time, should we create the caravan to appease our traders, or should we support Dostana with a new boat? Or perhaps we should look into this "Colossus" project and use our previous knowledge in great project building? ((we have social policies for wonders, and it's 13 turns for the colossus))

I know we have a focus on production and warfare at present, but I like the idea of a great bronze Colossus, as long as another civilisation do not beat us to it. My father still feels shame at his failure to construct two great wonders.

2) Delphi: Should we focus the city on war preparations, or another path?

3) Dostana: the slow pace of production worries me, 23 turns for a new boat seems rather large. Should we send the new worker here to improve on this situation? What would benefit us more?

5) International Matters: Siam's trade agreement will end soon, can we keep trading copper? Bear in mind that losing the copper will send our population into unhappiness.

Happiness is a concern. We can only grow as many people as we can keep happy. So yes we should renew the copper for cotton trade with Siam if we can. A more permanent solution would be to acquire more resources ourselves.

As much as it pains me to say it, especially since my father Melda hates the Siamese with a passion, I believe in the short term we may need to deal with the devils. I definitely believe war is coming, though, but this will delay it somewhat, and allow us the time needed to marshal our forces.

There are Truffles and Crabs way out west. It would take a while just to walk there let alone build the settler and of course it may be settled by the time we get there. It is very worth while but very much a long range prospect.

1889 the issue I see with settling west would be the time, and then we'd have to keep everyone happy to grow the city there too. We probably will have to get Siam under our belt sooner rather than later. Also, there are crabs 3 tiles away from Dostana, we can always buy that tile if possible.

Didn't see that, that is really good news. Because when we go to war we will have captured city unhappiness to deal with as well.

I wonder if conquering the Siamese will be more efficient than establishing new cities at this stage. Conquering their cities will also give us a research boost, as we can steal what they have already researched.

Siam has Copper and Incense which we can take. Rough estimate, we would need 2 siege engines, 4 bows and 4 swordsmen. I estimate we could build that in about 30 turns.

((I am intrigued that these siege engines are effectively melee units.))

The troop strength I proposed is an estimate based on experience. I would re-evaluate in 30 turns before we make the final decision to declare. Also if we could get open borders, a walk through their territory to inspect defenses would be very valuable.

I will defer to my fellow minister's expertise in these matters.

Since we are nearly at our happiness limit we should focus on production tiles rather than food tiles. I would like our workers to build mines. That production will let us build military units as well as happiness buildings. The Stoneworks gives both hint hint, and we could actually buy it right now if we choose to.

So, in short: Workers build mines and we make soldiers.

Since Dostana's production is so low it will not be much help with that but adjusting tiles will speed the work boat and the extra food from that can get us a settler to head west.

This all sounds good to me.

((What about social policies? What should be our goal? We've open 2 already, so we should probably complete one of them?))

Good thinking. Next policy in about 12 turns. Selecting Monarchy will give us 4-5 happiness.

There are many many ways to get happiness and anything else we might need. There is no need to fixate on war as the only solution to any problem, it is only one of many strategies.

Monarchy sounds good to me ((although I was sure this had been already adopted many, many moons ago --- the social policies screen seems a bit screwy, especially with the impossible 'legalism despite not having adopted oligarchy' thing that I mentioned a while ago)).

As much as I would like to complete the Tradition tree by eventually adopting Oligarchy I feel we should hold off until we have our happiness well under control, because we will undergo a population boom after completing the tree. And that will not be a good outcome if we do not have our people's happiness under control.

Looking at the Liberty tree for options after Monarchy . . . Meritocracy is only good for us once the King's Road is finished. Republic would be useful. Collective Rule will be useful for when we want to found additional cities . . . a question about Representation: where it decreases the cost of policies through the founding of new cities, is that from this point onward or does it take into consideration the fact we've already founded three cities and reduce the policy costs for the next policy after it is selected?

4) Science: Our scientists tell me that researching the proper ways of handling these new iron rocks will be finished in 4 days the latest (Metal casting in 4 turns). They wish to persue this venue and find a way to improve on in, and wish to call it Steel.

I agree with this idea. Steel it should be. By the time we have it researched we may be able to upgrade our swordsmen prior to our war with Siam.

6) Any new points can be discussed here.

I hope that we can discuss this until the end of the weekend, if possible.

Another thing to keep in mind as our faith grows is that we may sway religious followers into the army instead of needing to recruit through normal means, or through the hiring of mercenaries ((production of city, purchase at city, respectively)).

Another point to consider is that very soon we will receive a boost in relations with Zurich, which will increase happiness in the kingdom. If we can dislodge the Siamese, perhaps through monetary gifts to the people of Zurich, we would receive even higher happiness increases.

 

[1889]

I would recommend against Colossus. According to the demographics our production is below average so I don't feel confident that we can get it.

Their is something weird about the social policies but looking over the happiness we don't seem to have Monarchy yet so that is by far my preference. I don't really care much for Republic, it doesn't seem to offer much of a return for our investment and I don't know how many more settlers we are planning to build so I feel the same about Collective Rule. Pretty sure Representation only counts for future policy purchases so I like to get it early. I also really like the Patronage tree.

Purchasing units with faith is a nice emergency backup but it would currently take 20 turns to get a bowman so I'd prefer to save faith for prophets.

It will be exciting to see how our relationship with Zurich stands in 7 turns. Completing the quest will give us 40 points with them, more than friends but not allies. And unfortunately Siam has the Patronage policy that has their influence with city-states degrade 25% slower. They also get bonus culture, gold and happiness from city-states so they really love to make them into allies. Its way powerful, Siam is my favorite civ to play.

 

[Melda]

I would recommend against Colossus. According to the demographics our production is below average so I don't feel confident that we can get it.

Fair enough.

Their is something weird about the social policies but looking over the happiness we don't seem to have Monarchy yet so that is by far my preference. I don't really care much for Republic, it doesn't seem to offer much of a return for our investment and I don't know how many more settlers we are planning to build so I feel the same about Collective Rule. Pretty sure Representation only counts for future policy purchases so I like to get it early. I also really like the Patronage tree.

I'm quite sure a previous ruler had adopted it. But it does not appear any more.

Purchasing units with faith is a nice emergency backup but it would currently take 20 turns to get a bowman so I'd prefer to save faith for prophets.

Understood.

It will be exciting to see how our relationship with Zurich stands in 7 turns. Completing the quest will give us 40 points with them, more than friends but not allies. And unfortunately Siam has the Patronage policy that has their influence with city-states degrade 25% slower. They also get bonus culture, gold and happiness from city-states so they really love to make them into allies. Its way powerful, Siam is my favorite civ to play.

((In vanilla Civ V I used to play almost exclusively as Siam.

With the expansions I've tried to mix it up a bit more. ))

 

[MiguelBazil]

From your wise words I think we can agree on a few points already:

> Happiness needs to be dealt with as quick as possible. Renewing trades with Siam, even if temporary, impressing zurich in 7 turns, and buying land to get crabs ((that sounded so bad)) are the goals. Now, we need to decide whether to get monarchy or representation.
((Yes, representation only works for future policies, so now may be a good time to get it, since we should be getting the crabs and zurich.))

> Our war efforts need some temporary tone down, to get the rest of the economy growing, so I believe producing a new worker is of high importante. The big statue will not persued since our current matter are a lot more pressing.

> Unless minister Awpathos disagrees, going for the new ways of using iron is the path to take, in order to prepare for a future war.

Does any of the wise men disagree with these for the next 5 turns? If not, I hope to put these into practice between tomorrow and monday.

 

[1889]

I agree with all of the above and can see the wisdom of choosing Representation over Monarchy.

 

[Melda]

We are all agreed: onward!

 

[Melda]

((Also, I was combing back through the thread and worked out why our social policies are a bit skew-if: I think an update to the game changed the layout of the social policy tree(s).

Why was I combing through the thread? What, that's not normal?

Okay, I was working out when neighbourhoods were established (i.e. when each city's extra citizen turned up) to name them and determine their character. I . . . might be doing this as planning for something when next I take the throne. ))

Edit: And the fact you've attached screenshots of where the citizens sit for each city made this a lot easier. (I know there's the savegame, but an image is quicker to load!)

 

[MiguelBazil]

((Glad to know it helped, I may try to add a pic of all the cities at the end of the next 5 turns. Also, "what the hell" would you be planning? Determining each citize'ns characters? I smell some influences from the POP's in Realpolitiks thread Curious to see what you're thinking.

There was a slight delay on my cause of my valentine's gift to my gf, and I had to take the day to get the old computer running for her. I'll be playing and writing until tomorrow.))

 

[Melda]

((I smell some influences from the POP's in Realpolitiks thread Curious to see what you're thinking.

((You smell correctly . . . nothing as sophisticated as that, though, more for flavouring (and to officially involve the non-leader players.))

There was a slight delay on my cause of my valentine's gift to my gf, and I had to take the day to get the old computer running for her. I'll be playing and writing until tomorrow.))

((No problem at all. Compared to how this thread almost died, or when I was running it myself, the current pace is comparatively breakneck in speed! ))

 

[MiguelBazil]

Compared to how this thread almost died, or when I was running it myself, the current pace is comparatively breakneck in speed! ))

((I prefer to keep it at that. If this doesn't get some minimum updates, it gets unintersting fast, and I like the contact ))

 

[Melda]

((I prefer to keep it at that. If this doesn't get some minimum updates, it gets unintersting fast, and I like the contact ))

((Yeah, it's going well. ))

 

[MiguelBazil]

=======================
Story
=======================

The feeling after the meeting with the council was of care.
"We need to watch the population, they are not as happy as it'd be safe". These words echoed several times, and Bazil tried to remember those. We needed hapiness and to improve what good resources our territory had to give. Those would be the goals for the next 5 days.

=======================
Bazil's personal logs
=======================

Turn 6 - Game Turn 106 // 225 BC

Slow turn, the Quebec city wants silver, which would be an interesting boost if it happens.

Spoiler :

Turn 7 - Game Turn 107 // 200 BC

This Casimir character wants us to open our borders for him, for 30 gold over 30 days ((1 gpt)). He doesn't seem open to negotiate, so I refuse this. While 30 gold sound good, that's what we do ourselves in half that time or less.

Siam's trade finished, and it pains me to say we had to remake it, our people will become unsatisfied if we don't remake it.

Spoiler :

Turn 8 - Game Turn 108 // 175 BC

The beautiful city of Khirra provides us with one much needed worker, I order them to get us a new caravan (with my father's specifications, as he was wise in these trades)

Spoiler :

Then, a moment of great happiness and a monument to our previous leader, and wise man Melda, the first part of the king's road was finished.

Spoiler :

Our traders are so exalted with this, that our national gold gain increases from 8 to 15.

Turn 9 - Game Turn 109 // 150 BC

Our scientists tell me that metal casting was finished, and that they are ready to improve on this, researching steel for us. Also, we seem to also have become "medieval".

Spoiler :

I start moving 2 workers near dostana, as we need the city to become self sustainable (at least in production). I kind of regret taking 2 instead of one, as we have 2 hills that we could probably improve in our other cities, but I'll dedicate the third worker to this.

Turn 10 - Game Turn 110 // 125 BC

The first of our Siege towers was built in Delphi, it's a massive engine.

Spoiler :

Our barracks have trained their men, and they can be promoted. No promotion was given, as I'd like to consult with the counsil on this.

Also, I've warned the city they should start preparing for a colosseum due to our happiness issue, as we need to entertain our people.

=======================
The meeting
=======================
Current situation:

Spoiler :

Wise men, I'm addressing you now to ask for ideas on the following topics:
1) Trapping, optics, philosphy, when would researching these become a priority?
2) Delphi may need a temporary focus. War machines again, or perhaps a market to power our trades?
3) Khirra, after the caravan, perhaps a new worker? (to complete 4 as our work force)
4) What should our new Siege Tower specialize in? I was considering Shock 1 as there is a lot of open terrain nearby, even in case of war with Siam.

 

[1889]

Can we have a save please?

 

[MiguelBazil]

I always forget that, I'll add it in a few hours.

 

[MiguelBazil]

Here's the save guys.

 

[Melda]

Melodios, son of Melda approached the king.

"My father is greatly honoured and humbled by the completion of the first stage of the King's Road. And may I say the siege tower is an impressive and mighty construction!"

King Bazil nodded and was about to reply when he suddenly noticed his minister had an unusual manner about him. "What is it?"

"My king, I regret to announce I am resigning my commission," he said simply.

"You what?!" the king exploded, "Explain yourself."

"I am resigning as your chief minister. As my final act I formally advise you to commission minister Awpathos to form a new government as your chief minister," Melodios paused as he gathered his words, "We need to know more about the Siamese, and what their plans are. I intend to travel to their lands and seek out what I can find. Far better for me to go as a private citizen than as your chief minister, especially if war breaks out or they capture me."

The king frowned but understood the logic of it.

"And besides . . . my father always told me to ensure you surround yourself with people smarter than yourself. And I must admit Awpathos is much smarter than I, so of all in your ministry it makes the most sense to send me."

The king seemed somewhat mollified, but was annoyed at the sudden, unexpected change in plans.

((What does the king say next? I leave that for the king to decide.

I'm not actually travelling to Siam --- Thailand --- but I am holidaying in Southeast Asia for two weeks so I will be dropping back to largely observer status during that time. I will have patchy Internet and will drop in when I can.))

 

[1889]

Awpathos shuffled quickly to answer the king’s summons. He frowned under his thick beard at the news that he would be thrust into such a public position: the title, the ostentatious (and most probably uncomfortable) garb, and the ceremonies and rituals of office. He had never fancied himself Chief Minister, he much preferred his cluttered chamber in the treasury, a quiet place to consult his charts and tables in peace.

Still he had been young once, and he could recall a time when he would have envied Melodios’ daring. A secret mission into the heart of the enemy! Awpathos was glad at least that such an important mission was in such competent hands.

“You honor me over much, my liege yet I will do all that you command. I seek only to advise you to the best of my ability.”

“Your majesty is wise to be wary of war. It is a great risk. And yet the Siamese traders unloading their copper will not fail to notice our magnificent new machine of war. They may dismiss us for now because of our weakness but they will soon realize that siege engines are not built for defense. I think that we should continue to pursue war preparations.”

With that in mind I think that Steel or Physics are the best tech choices. I would recommend Physics over Steel however. The coming war will be a battle for cities, Trebuchettes will be more valuable than Longswords in that fight. It also gives us the option to build Notre Dame (+10 happiness!). BTW our tech path is highly specialized, we have passed many good techs in pursuit of weaponry. I suggest we continue that all the way to Gunpowder. Once we get to the Renaissance we get spies (no offence Melodios). If we are the first we get to steel techs from defenseless neighbors.

As for construction in Delphi and Khirra, I say more Siege Towers and Chariot Archers. We currently have no ranged units! A Stone Works in Delphi would be good too. I apologize for repeating myself but it would boost production almost 40% and still gives happiness too.

A word about happiness. In 2 turns Zurich will be impressed by our faith. When we save up 500 gold we will be able to buy an alliance with them and get 8 happiness. It will hopefully last long enough to capture some resources from Siam.

As for promoting or Siege Tower, I recommend Cover II. That will give us 66% defense against ranged attacks which will be important as our death machine lumbers into position for a melee attack on the city. Drill I’s +15% against rough terrain pales compared to the +200% against cities it already has.