The ultimate challenge deity part II, Liz

We should have seen more early declaration in this case on Monarch even.
If AIs like gilgamesh have roughly 1.6% chance per turn to consider either a war or a limited war, it means that they are 73% likely to declare war sometime in the first 80 turns. If power ratio of 0.5 is not what deters them, what is it then? Why do I not get declared as often on Monarch?

well, 1st of all, gilgamesh declared in turn 104... it was perfectly mathematical, can't complain :p

however, supposing there would be less turns(normal - but while you are "safer" on normal, the probability of ai - ai wars is also smaller, which favors slower speeds, so overall balanced):

The decision process behind a total war is the following:

1) Roll the dice, i.e. generate a number up to that AI's iMaxWarRand number. If the rolled number is 0, i.e. a 1/iMaxWarRand chance every turn, the AI decides to see if it wants to go for a total war. Note that this doesn't mean it will go for a total war, only that it will consider it. The number iMaxWarRand is 200 for Asoka and Washington, 300 for Lizzy and 100 for Toku and HC. Note that if the roll is 0 at this step, the AI will not consider a limited or dogpile war that turn even if it doesn't decide to go for a total war after all.

1/iMaxWarRand - it's tiny; a warmonger like toku apparently gets 1% chance/turn

in that 1% case:

3) The AI then makes three passes through all the other civs it has met, to see who to go to war against, if any. If a suitable target is found in one pass, it doesn't bother to do the subsequent passes.

A) On the first pass, only adjacent neighbors are considered. Just who is considered adjacent is determined by the AI's iMaxWarMinAdjacentLandPercent number, ranging from 0 to 4. If that many percent of the AI's total land borders the considered target, it is a valid target for that pass (for those who have 0, it is enough to be reachable via land). Asoka has 0, HC has 1, Washington 3, Lizzy and Toku 4. This means we are valid targets for Asoka and Washington for this pass, but not for any of the others.

so, beside those with 0, you're less of a target for the others. Let's say monty's case of 130% - though I think monty has 0 after how he declares:

it's irrelevant if you're 1% of his power, if some neighboring ai is already under 130% his power. Only if no neighbor is under 130% his power, then you're considered.

6) Each civ that matches the criteria so far (i.e. not liked enough, and not strong enough) is a potential target, so if any civ gets this far in the calculations, the AI will start planning a war. To find who of the potential targets that the AI will choose, calulate the AI's war value against that civ. This is done by the following steps:
- Take the number of land tiles the target owns that borders the AI, multiplied by 4(1).
- Add the "capitol proximity" between the target and the AI - this is quite simply the plot distance between the two capitols, multiplied by 1.5 if the capitols are on different land masses(2).
- Multiply the number gotten by a factor determined by the AI's attitude towards the target: 1 for Friendly, 2 for Pleased, 4 for Cautious, 8 for Annoyed and 16 for Furious.

basically, even if that 1% happens, and then no neighbor was found(or a neighbor was found, but his iMaxWarMinAdjacentLandPercent = 0 and you're checked too if on same landmass)

- the main thing is bordering him; if you don't, then warValue of whoever's the unlucky neighbor will be way higher then you
your warValue after (1) will be 0, while the neighbor will be dunno... 100+;
step (2) is wrongly explained, but I don't have the code around - basically, from this explanation, warValue would increase if you're further away and be greatest if you're on a diff. continent(which we know it ain't the case, since they always seem to declare close to home - as it'd also be logic)
at step (3), your warValue, which should still be way smaller then the neighbor, is multiplied by relations for both of you and said neighbor. So unless the neighbor has very good relations and you have crappy ones, to offset (1)(Take the number of land tiles the target owns that borders the AI, multiplied by 4), you should again be safe.

All in all, more or less what we know - there aren't that many wars and yes, power is relatively irrelevant. Mind you, that's taking this guy's word, as again, I don't have the code here.

Also, I didn't look at all at this either:

Diplomatically, there are two reasons for the AI to go to war. Either they decide to go to war because a demand is rebuked, or they are bought or coerced into a war by an ally.
.

However, here, logically you'd get a special "check" if you rebuke, so here power probably matters! Unless you're saved by diplo. But again, no clue about the mechanics.

Also, some interesting things I've noted earlier:

// if we not human, do we want to continue war for strategic reasons?
// only check if our power is at least 120% of theirs
if (!isHuman() && iOurPower > ((120 * iTheirPower) / 100))

// if we total warmonger, value peace at 70% * power ratio factor
if (bDagger || AI_maxWarRand() < 100)

// if we limited warmonger, value peace at 70% * power ratio factor
if (AI_limitedWarRand() < 100)

// if we dogpile warmonger, value peace at 70% * power ratio factor
if (AI_dogpileWarRand() < 100)

// Discourage capitulation to a team that has not done the most damage
if (iTheirSuccess < iOthersBestSuccess)
{
iOurSuccess += iOthersBestSuccess - iTheirSuccess;
}

iMasterPower = (2 * iMasterPower * iTheirSuccess) / (iTheirSuccess + iOurSuccess);

which are more or less self explenatory.
 
Snaaty, nice game, amazing survival skills
I have a question
Spoiler :

Why did you bother with Angkor wat and priest specialists? London didn't have enough food surplus to get a lot of them, and you didn't have pyramids to get research bonus from them.
Did the extra 6 hammers really help getting the radio wonders faster?

Wouldn't bulbing liberalism or astronomy have been better?

 
@ Dirk:

Spoiler :
I never geared up for a war, so I dont know, have choosen another techpath (beelining medicine), but I doubt it, the mighty three (France, Holland and Sumeria) always were 3-5 techs ahead of me, only sushi and later the internet brought me ahead, see also the spoiler for silver


@ silver:

Spoiler :
always when I manage to found a reli in my capital, I go for AnkorW. Beeing phil even helps more. I only got 1 GP (shrine) and 2 GS (1 Phil, 1 Academy) early, then I ran 6 priests during midgame (1 temple, 2 shrine, 3 AW), getting very vast 3 GP and settling them. With bio and soon suhsi, I was able to get all the food needed (I kept some farms around my capital). 6 Priest and 3 Gpriests bring 36 hammers under bureau + org with forge, but to most important thing are 32 gold. Add in bureau, maket, groce, bank, wallstreet and you and up with 250%, giving you 123 Gold/Turn (even more beeing england with the bonus on bank). Add in another 20-30 basevalue for the shrine and you easily can run science at 100% for the rest of the game with a small empire. (was running a little deficit only the last 20 turns or so, because I had suhi in all cities and mining (the AI was nice enough to bring mining to me:king:)in some more, and had to fire most priests due to some annoying starving issue:mischief: (factory + loosing some health deals due to the worldwar)
 
Thanks for the explanation Snaaty. Another clarification question:

Spoiler :

6 priests in London during mid-game? Where did the food come from?
Or do you refer to post biology as mid game?
I can only see enough food near london for 3 specialists, maybe even only 2 pre-civil service.

 
Grrrr. I was not sure why there were too different saves, so I grabbed the second one. But just now I skimmed through the thread for spoilers, and I understand now.

Anyhow, wish I had known gilga was sooo close! I worked the fastest I could. I got a worker first, to get the mines up and running, I also got some warriors out to try and BOOST my war-rating and use for fog busting as well. Unfortunately, I had NO f-ing metals within the capital. So I headed over a chopped settler to see if I could get axemen online and use as a blocker, and wouldn't you know, before I could even SETTLE the guy, a deity SoD from gilga already marched into my terrain before 2125 BC !!

One of those classic examples of ending up in an UNWINNABLE situation. I knew it was coming the turn before when I saw his SoD just outside the gates, but there was nothing I could do about it.
 
:(:lol:, i know and a lot of others know too now. It was worse in my game, i got him to pleased but too late. Your fate is punishment for not reading the OP.

Anyway i'm thinking of starting a third one this weekend but i'll ask first in a pre game thread about which leader we'll play and if i should play maybe the first 50 turns or so to see if it's any fun.I feel a bit like i'm wasting peoples time here especially with the second save.
 
@ Rusten, Dirk:
I would love to see how your games from the first start turned out (I still think it´s pretty impossible to win, not because I got backstabbed in my version but because of the Arabs (I think) having 30%+ land and 15+ cities around 1 AD with some cities pop 15+

...

@ Dirk:
If you want, I can ask a frind making a map for the next game (+ checking and making some small reworks if needed, then you dont have to spoiler yourself)
 
@Snaaty, i plan to play the first save out and i'll post some results then. I've been busy with checking out the rules according to which the AI goes to war lately (and getting a grip on C++) so i haven't got much time. I think it might be winnable by a renaissance war but i fear i may have over expanded , it'll be hard from my position to get the empire running in time. Rusten's position looks promising, if he's got an army ready by +/-1000 AD he can at least weaken Sulei strengthening his own position in the process.

As for a pre-made map, Thx. I may take you up on this. It's not that i get spoilered that much, i played the first installment to 500 bc, then posted it. I think playing until 1000 BC is enough btw to make the call to go forward. But indeed partaking in discussions about the starting position and early game strat is hard since i'd be biased by what i've seen so far.
 
You guys should reall check out sgtom8 that is starting up now, although it is monrch the real opponents are actually the humans you are playing against so you'll need to keep your skill top notch. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=288968 great for comparison and learning of different peoples tactics.
 
Hmm, i'd rather play on a somewhat higher level, also i almost never build wonders so this is not really my game. Still if you or some other team is looking for a player i'm on.
 
I played out the first save with the silver/deer start.
Until 1862 AD.
Spoiler :

I had secured a fair chunk of land 100 bc, i proceed with normal play, building NE in capital (no food and mo production anywhere else). I didn't have any chance for GL btw. With decifit food i'm able to run 4 gs here.It's not much better with the other cities, there are nice resources to connect but after that it kind of falls flat, not enough food resources not enough grass and even not enough plains. Attacking Sulei would always have been difficult as he fields enormous amounts of cuirassiers and my power's between ~0.1~0.2 average (it'll drop to 0.0 subsequently :lol:). Essentially i'm working with water the whole game. Still by beelining and some luck in trading i take demo from lib ~1000 ad.

I go us, emancipation free speech so that at least the cottages i have will fully contribute. I play a sort of ICS building cities on the coast 2 tiles apart to maximize number of (water) tiles worked and trade routes. I beeline communism, am the first to reseach it and iirc start a GA now. Main reason was to go SP for a while but most of all build the kremlin. I'll have to buy a lot of stuff and a discount'll be great.

This succeeds and i buy a lot of infra subsequently. I am lucky to pop a GE and a GM, i was playing for them but chances weren't that high on the first try.

So everything i try succeeds but that doesn't detract from the fact that i'm just losing the game. As Snaaty predicted Sulei just can't be stopped. He vassalizes Lois early, is involved in a war against Fred and ends up vassalizing him too. I rely btw on a defensive pact with Bren (:lol: as if he isn't even lower ranked than i am) and good relations (pleased with Sulei).

Sulei's bloodthirst knows no end and he goes after Gilg and his vassal Ghandi too. This suits me fine as Sulei's only cautious towards me now he has dropped Hindu. Eventually this proves to be my downfall however.

I try for the internet but lose it to Sulei, not that it matters much, Sulei gets nothing and i wouldn't have gotten much out of it either, Sulei's first in everything with ~7000 points, i follow with ~3300 points. Maybe i should have gone for apollo immed but there weren't that much parts to build then.

I could have done one thing better in hindsight i spammed mining to Sulei (and also Bren and Louis)This was necessary for me to pay the cost but i shouldn't have spread it to Sulei i think, not because he produces so fast now (he does anyway) but i can't get iron and copper from him now.

I'm completely out researched, Sulei kills Ghandi and vassalizes Gilg. He needs Genetics and ecology and i know from espionage that he can reseach both in ~ 4 turns. But he switches plan and suddenly goes cultural :crazyeye:.

Well that gives me a chance, i refrain from researching Genetics and ecology for the moment as they'll be stolen immed. I Just go for composites, i transform as much land as possible to workshops. Even with mining which nets me 6 hammers/turn my production is just bad so it all takes a while. All the cities that are not building parts are producing spies to induce city revolts in Bursa thwarting Sulei's cultural vic plan.

The plan was to start counter espionage missions at the time i research Genetics so it doesn't get stolen immediately. We never get that far though, a vote for diplo vic comes up and Sulei has it.

All in all i an interesting game, i played more with espionage and corps than i ever did in a game before. I feel that if Sulei would have been a bit smaller and if i'd have had some better land i would have had a fair chance by going peaceful as i did. As it is i could only win it the cheesy way and diplo vote prevented that.

I don't say this map is completely unwinnable but i think you need a war against Sulei and i also think you have to get it started before 1000 ad. Research wise this is possible but the production just doesn't seem to be there.

I enjoyed the game as it featured many aspects like espionage, corps and the Kremlin but it was too difficult for me, i hope Rusten shows us how it can be done.
 

Attachments

I've been away for a while so I'm not privy to the evolution of this series. Has the deity challenges replaced the Immortal Student games?
 
No the idea is that they coexist. But since since there are some deity players that also play the immortal series and the other way around, silverbullet may have decided to hold off on posting a new immortal start. He joined in the first deity installment himself. Maybe it's a good idea to play an immortal start before going on to the third deity installment.
 
No the idea is that they coexist. But since since there are some deity players that also play the immortal series and the other way around, silverbullet may have decided to hold off on posting a new immortal start. He joined in the first deity installment himself. Maybe it's a good idea to play an immortal start before going on to the third deity installment.

I see. It's possible I could win on deity although I only enjoy 50% or so on immortal. There's still alot of things I'm learning at the immortal level though, strategies I haven't utilized. I hadn't ever drafted a full army before the Suleiman Immortal game for example so I would love more of those games. :)
Then again, I don't know how much time I would have for it once Colonization 2 hit the shelves since my life as I know it will probably pretty much end right there, but that's not for another 3 weeks so one more public civ4 game could be managed at least. :lol:
 
No the idea is that they coexist. But since since there are some deity players that also play the immortal series and the other way around, silverbullet may have decided to hold off on posting a new immortal start. He joined in the first deity installment himself. Maybe it's a good idea to play an immortal start before going on to the third deity installment.

Well, I noticed less and less people posting their games in the latest immortal university thread, and Dirk started the new Deity challenge series, so I thought it would be best not to overlap (especially since most poster on the immortal university are Deity players anyway).

If we are going to wait with the next Deity challenge, we could start a new immortal game.
 
Bump! A blast from the past. I lost the Liz start initially. Can i win it now with more deity knowledge but also inevitably some knowledge of the general layout of the map. I stated in Duckweeds warmonger thread that i thought i could, let's see. This game was played with 3.17 patch btw, it's the first start in this thread ( i won't replay the second as i'm sure i'll lose that one again :lol:).

Spoiler :

I have played it before so i play more quickly than i use to do, maybe i made some mistakes this way. Settle in place and i begin hunting AH, probably did that in my previous try as well. I pop sailing from a hut.

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That's nice since i plan on GLH this time. Get it around 2000 bc, well that'll help. I think i would have gotten it without the hut pop as well as production not tech was limiting.

Build 2 wb's for maximum exploration, i'd like to have those routes in asap. Have a headache figuring out what to do with the GM 1000 bc. A TM is appealing, don't know how much it'll bring in but 500 gold should be possible. He can also bulb MC for a tech trade, decide to settle him in the end. This'll net 240 gold in the 40 turns to 1 ad, the extra food is very welcome and later on gold buildings and rep can further enhance it's value. 200 bc i strike a lucky break as i can trade col for 370 gold with Sulei. I'm in a much better position now than in my previous try. I don't hate the land as much as last time, i went with cottages then. Despite Liz being financial i think a chain farm system works much better here so that's what i'm going to do.

I can research CS now but i'm going to tech to monotheism and trade for monarchy first. Both techs help, also 2 leaders have HR, one OR as fav civic. Maybe i change my mind and try for music, CS is nice but not great for my capital, a GA for the civic switches would be great. Maybe i should have gone music instead of col anyway, actually didn't think about it this time.

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Don't know if i can win it this time but it looks better also because Louis seems to have taken one of the cities Sulei took in my prev attempt.
 
I don't see one super AI, I see 2 big one. I don't see why you can not win this one. You'll take the biggest benefit from tech broking in Hindu clubs.
 
Yes, apart from my being in a better position this time there's not really a run away ai this time. I fancy my chances this time, still the sort of land i have isn't good long term since every city has one or more prime tiles but most run out of useful tiles at size 10 or sooner. I need to be able to make a move somewhere in the renaissance i feel or maybe a cav bomber rush if renaissance rush's really not possible. I'd be worried about tech and production though in that case. But GLH'll become stronger and stronger as i build some harbors so i'll tech well the next 1000 years or so.
 
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