The ultimate UU ranking, including PTW!

[Coorae]

I think War chariots (got C-) are better than mounted warriors (got A).
I think neither of them should be near the top though.

how can you put ManOWar ("nobody in the right mind would build them") above anything? the conqustadors can run through mountains and jungle that have no roads (or are in enemy territory).

 

[Sirp]

Coorae: War Chariots are good, but not as good as Mounted Warriors. I don't see how anyone could say that MWs are anything other than an A class unit though. Attacking with that kind of speed and that kind of punch is unmatched in its time.

-Sirp.

 

[troytheface]

i will agree with those that have commented on War Chariots especially in mp games. Early horseman at 20 cost? Roads quickly built by industeriousness trait? Easily A. Better than Mounted Warrior? In 2.5-3hr games, elimination, yes, it actually is. "Rush strategy" is another name for building a bunch of units to attack with....thats an aspect that is implemented in EVERY strategic battle plan (coupled with where and when to attack of course-oh u mean like having an early attacking unit that lasts throughout the ancient time with 2 movement....?)
And they can kill Immortals, Hoplites and Numideans. Seen it.

 

[Cartouche Bee]

Originally posted by troytheface
i will agree with those that have commented on War Chariots especially in mp games. Early horseman at 20 cost? Roads quickly built by industeriousness trait? Easily A. Better than Mounted Warrior? In 2.5-3hr games, elimination, yes, it actually is. "Rush strategy" is another name for building a bunch of units to attack with....thats an aspect that is implemented in EVERY strategic battle plan (coupled with where and when to attack of course-oh u mean like having an early attacking unit that lasts throughout the ancient time with 2 movement....?)
And they can kill Immortals, Hoplites and Numideans. Seen it.

Exactly, the price reduction means that you can produce in quantity all the way to the middle ages. Don't under estimate the power of retreat, it keeps the opponent from promoting it's units easily during heated wars.

 

[Suave]

I think this thread is great, and even the back and forth on some units proves the game is even more balanced than at first glance. If I could add my two cents though, two important factors have been underrated; resource requirements, and upgrade path.

For example, with regards to the War Elephants, their ability to be produced without need of iron or horses (which their contemporaries need) is shrugged off in most posts because this is "useless" in games where you do have this resource. Not true. I personally believe that the reliance and management of strategic resources is possibly the single biggest change to Civ III over Civ II. EVEN if you do have iron and horses playing as the Indians, the point many are missing is that by not needing them, you are free to TRADE them where otherwise you couldn't have. AIs will trade big bucks for these when they need them, a valuable side effect of the War Elephants.

As for upgrade paths. This is the one area that I think weakens the otherwise great Berserk. I think a key aspect of military management is to "pre-produce" a unit. For example if you plan a Sipahi rush, build up tons of horsemen or knights prior to military tradition so you can upgrade them in one fell swoop later. Furthermore, you don't want a ton of UUs that go obsolete because they can't in turn be upgraded. Berserks not only have nothing that can be upgraded to them (correct me if I'm wrong) but just as importantly, the unit that they can in turn be upgraded to, the Guerilla, is among the weakest units in the game. (Also, this may just be a PTW bug, but Berserks in Simult. play can't actually take a city from sea, they can only empty it...weird). This isn't to say Berserks aren't awesome, just pointing out a weakness, and that the upgrade path in general should be given more weight for other units too.

 

[SanPellegrino]

Originally posted by Suave
I think this thread is great

You have nothing to do with Zouave, I think

 

[Bismarck]

Originally posted by Suave

EVEN if you do have iron and horses playing as the Indians, the point many are missing is that by not needing them, you are free to TRADE them where otherwise you couldn't have. AIs will trade big bucks for these when they need them, a valuable side effect of the War Elephants.

This is a good point, but...

(there's always a but )

You need to consider the timing of such a trade, and whether it's a good idea to supply your rivals with the resource they most need to make war.

In a "standard" world (medium, non-pangaeic), you'll typically have 2-3 civs per continent. Around the time of war elephants, these 1-2 other civs will be your *only* resource trade partners (no sea routes yet). Therefore, by trading them a strategic resource, you are enabling your closest rivals to build the latest military technologies of the age. This may or may not be a good idea, depending on the circumstances.

For example, I'd have little qualm about trading iron to Gandhi (unless I was planning to conquer him any time soon!), but I'd think twice before trading it to Caesar, and I'd never trade it to Shaka.

All in all, I haven't found the freeing-up of iron to be a significant advantage of war elephants. It requires an unusual set of conditions to work (2+ sources of iron AND a nearby civ lacks iron AND you're not planning to conquer that civ any time soon AND it's safe to give that civ iron).

 

[Suave]

Fair, but my counter, counter point is that I don't think I need any iron between the time of Chivalry and Steam Power if I am the Indians, I don't need anything other than the Elephants for military, and I can't build RR or factory's yet. So its not that I don't need excess, I don't need any. So the only conditions that apply are, that you have a non-enemy anywhere (within trade reach)that needs iron or horses (on the latter I have no use for them between the mid-ancient until military tradition). Remember Chivalry is after map-making.

Also, on the other point related to Berserks, I am almost convinced now that it is not a bug, I don't believe Berserks can actually take a city from a boat, re-reading their description seems to imply that they have only partial amphibious qualities, which is in line with my simult play experience. Can anyone confirm this or whether an archer can upgrade to a Berserk?

 

[SanPellegrino]

yes, archers upgrade to berserks and can take cities from the sea.

 

[Mîtiu Ioan]

Great analysis - Grendel !!

The only personal comments is that I will put a C+ or a B- for Panzer. Usually - if play a huge map on Deity level I find necesarry to "eliminate" 2-3 civs in Modern Era during one or two "World War" !!

And Panzer ability to move on enemy land faster is absolutely excelent ...

Regards and tanks again for the excellent work.

 

[troytheface]

Suave's comment , ".....proves the game is even more balanced than at first glance...." is an intriguing one. Grendels' Ranking and comment kind of set the stage. like a reference point.
At a certain level , one might be able to accurately rank the Unique Units according to position and game conditions.
(Not just map size or level- also oppossing civs, terrain, ur mood)
That being the case , and -with a tip of the hat to Grendel's reference point and grouping- ie (the A's, the B's etc.) Here are some comments about UU's.
Conditions-MP 2-3 hr (Elim or not) Tiny Pangea (or not)
Defense-Jungle, mountains +
Numidean/Hoplite : excellent, build walls and u won't die, but will u win? Numideans do alot. If they are allowed to build. Kill them quickly if u are given the chance or at least get in thier face.
Attack- Plains, desert +
War Chariot, Immortal, , Mounted Warrior, Impi, Jaguar,
Some u wait on some u don't , but the key is when to start pumping them out, noticed Aztec can go broke quickly so wait, take it easy, even with the immortals-but once given the go, produce them like hornets out of the nest. To fight these, get defensive units in their face, or on ur mines.
Bowmen , Legion*-played them only sp, Others That Come in Med.
Waiting is always what these civs tend to do, watching others war and building up, which makes sense. I like bowmen yet at times they can be really weak, failing against warriors. To fight them i suggest u pillage. If u are them u have the option of attacking or defending. Make up ur mind and do the best u can at either. Don't do both, u'll lose. I asked over the chat which people preferred , Celt or Legion and Legion won because of cost.
I like the Celt tho- scout, attacker, counter-attacker, run awayer,
but i suspect there are legion players that can dominate given the chance, and too, i will add this, played SP -Rome on Emperor and quit because i had dominated so early....

 

[troytheface]

Celt, would go with Immortals, Impi, etc. an ommission.

 

[troytheface]

Some other mistakes-
Immortals -will be favored by Mountains /jungle-not plains

Resources-Really didn't say anything other than the obvious, some UU's need them and if u don't get them ur in trouble. The exceptions being Impi's, Jags, Bowmen, Hoplites, Numideans.
If ur worried about resources choose one of them. It is a gamble to select another civ, no doubt. I had the Iroquois once and raced towards a Horse resource, far away, built a city and -Immortals came down from the south., one tile....wasn't elim, but it might as well have been.

Also "Timing"
Really common sense but for the sake of clarity-
Bowmen/Impi/Jaguar/War Chariot/Hoplite-attack early (if u are going to attack at all)
Celt/Legion/Immortal/Mounted Warrior/Numidean-attack or counter-attack later
Also if Immortals or Mounted Warriors are at ur door skip protecting ur mines and batten down ur cities-and build offensive counter-attack units. The Impis and Jags u can fend off with a simple unit, so why not protect ur roads ect.

Navy
Build one

 

[Suave]

SanPelligrino have you tested this? I just read cracker's new PTW technical review and he states that archers cannot be upgraded to Berserks. I also tested again if I could take a city directly from a boat with a Berserk and I can't, it says only marines can, the Berserk can kill every unit in the city, it can't take it. Maybe its just a bug on my installation, I don't know.

 

[anarres]

Suave, are you on patch version 1.14f?

 

[Suave]

yes, 1.14

 

[patmcq]

How about this for a historically accurate American UU: Navy Seals (10.6.1, replaces marines) That way, Amphibious warfare might actually be useful, and you could give infantry a run for their money.

I whole-heartedly agree that Berserks are by far the best UU. On Emperor/Deity, where war is the name of the game, having a huge attack advantage on land and sea makes it much easier to take a lead in the mideval ages.

 

[Tweedledum]

Strictly speaking this may be "outside the scope of this discussion", but there is another factor - as yet unmentioned - which has some bearing, and that is the tech which enables the UU.

For instance: the Knight-replacement UUs require Chivalry, which a non era-advancement tech. In other words, to get the unit you have to - in effect - lengthen the tech tree by researching (or otherwise acquiring) a tech which could otherwise be bypassed (certainly when playing the Ottomans/Russians I will tend to head straight for Military Tradition and upgrade from Horsemen). This bypass is more attractive since the advent of PtW and Med.Inf. as a A=4 unit (admittedly a slow one...).

Edit: OK, OK. Before anyone else points it out, I'd forgotten that
Military Tradition is non-era advancement as well. I've got so used to bashing people with Cavalry that I'd come to view it as essential... This might rather lessen the value of what I said before , although I don't think it entirely destroys it...

The Conquistador particularly suffers from this factor - even when playing Spain I don't bother with Navigation anymore and try (hope?) to GA some other way...

 

[Greyhawk1]

I was baffled why the Vikings weren't given 'Longships' as unique units. An upgraded Galley that can travel over sea squares without the relevant wonder and maybe 1 extra movement or something.

Surely the Viking Longships are the things that stand out from their culture regarding units plus they founded many ancient colonies (Greenland, Iceland possibly Newfoundland) before anyone else even thought these places existed.

The Berzerk? Who ever heard of a Viking Berzerk?? In fact its the Celts I would associate with Berserkers with their Warped Warriors who were imbued with the power of the Earth Goddess Danu (scientists think they were epileptics) and literally were supposed to turn around in their skin before attacking with godlike fury.

Vikings carrying huge axes with great big beards is an old old cliche.

 

[anarres]

Originally posted by Greyhawk1
I was baffled why the Vikings weren't given 'Longships' as unique units. An upgraded Galley that can travel over sea squares without the relevant wonder and maybe 1 extra movement or something.

Inspired.