The undead

[overlordoftime]

so who was the mage or shrman who cast the first spells that would eventually lead to the art of necromancy in fall from heaven, and how smart can the undead be and how exactly does arawn ( I think thats how you spell it.) feel about it I know he doesn't like it really.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I would assume Kylorin may have been the first, as he taught Barbatos how to use this sphere. Most necromancers' knowledge of the arcane probably traces back to Barbatos (however indirectly), who probably exceeded his master is his area of expertise.


Liches still have all the mental faculties they had in life, plus they have a lot of time to learn as they are essentially immortal. Spectres have lesser intelligence, but at least enough to have coherent memories of their past lives. Wraiths are formed from spectres who choose to completely forget who they were. Skeletons and Zombies have almost no minds and must be controlled by the mages who summoned them, but it isn't uncommon for one to display a primitive emotional attachment to certain objects.


Arawn absolutely despises necromancy. Destroying the undead is just about the only reason he would ever send an angel into creation. Arawn himself withdraw from Erebus entirely specifically so that e could cut us off from the power of Life and Death, which Patrian mages were horribly abusing (death more than life). This made necromancy impossible for a time, but then Tuoni and his brothers stole 3 Gems of Creation. Now, all death magic is channeled from the Opalus Mortis that remains embedded in his hand.

 

[Seon]

Yes, but I heard from someone else that he did not care enough about Necromancy to empower his priests to fight the undead.

 

[Verdian]

Arawn just doesn't care about creation. He is very busy, and while he despises Necromancy (it prevents souls from coming to his realm, after all), he doesn't want to get involved in creation enough to do anything about it. Arawn doesn't even have priests, if I remember correctly. He has followers (that he ignores), but no official clergy, and certainly not priests that have any powers granted by him.

Oh, that reminds me. Is it a joke that you are Arawn in the Divine Intervention game, MC?

edit: I also seem to recall that Kael said the state of the body, specifically the brain, determined the intelligence of the undead. So skeletons were just berserk and dangerous undead that were difficult to control, while zombies and fresh corpses could be trained to do simple tasks.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Arawn definitely had priests in the Age of Magic and may have a few now (probably only among the Sidar, and still not likely then as Kael has stated that even the Sidar have given up on really worshiping their neglectful god), but he has never granted them any powers. We know that those wanting to show reverence to Arawn used to throw coins into a grave in front of his temple, before Laroth came and turned the place into a shrine to Temeluchus (a god whom he had made up). Temeluchus quickly became more popular than Arawn ever was, although its evangelists were never very effective once they got out of the range of the young Laroth's instinctive use of Spirit Magic. Whenever he moed on to the next town (with all the money from his converts), the men and women who had gladly mutilated their bodies in devotion to his god usually went back to normal pretty quickly. Those who stayed close to him (like his girlfriend and their son) would however go on to kill themselves as signs of devotion, even after being told that the god was just made up for their scam.


Kael once stated that almost all of Arawn's very few actions in creation were striking out against the undead, but since then he seems to have him instead taking no action at all. I think I'll interpret this to mean that he acted out against necromancy a few times in the Age of Magic, before deciding the best way to stop this was to cut himself off completely lest he be used as a conduit for his precept. Alternately, you could say that he occasionally permits one of his angels to act out against the undead, which probably still requires significant begging to get permission but is the only action for which such permission is possible.


Being Arawn is sort of a joke, I guess. In the previous game someone asked to be Arawn, and then I pointed out that means not doing anything. This time, I decided to take the job so I could be a part of the game without actually being a part of the game, as I didn't think I'd really have the time due to school work.

 

[Tyrs]

Yes, but I heard from someone else that he did not care enough about Necromancy to empower his priests to fight the undead.

You're probably thinking of Orange's Sidar in an NES. That's not lore for the "real" Erebus, but even then its Laroth, not Arawn.

 

[Seon]

No no no... not that... from somewhere else...

 

[Duruk]

Arawn definitely had priests in the Age of Magic and may have a few now (probably only among the Sidar, and still not likely then as Kael has stated that even the Sidar have given up on really worshiping their neglectful god)

If I remember correctly, a god's ability to act on Erebus is directly proportional to their number of worshipers. So does this mean that Arawn can either no longer act in creation, or act in only slight ways?

 

[Kael]

If I remember correctly, a god's ability to act on Erebus is directly proportional to their number of worshipers. So does this mean that Arawn can either no longer act in creation, or act in only slight ways?

The compact limits a gods interaction in creation in very specific ways. Usually meaning that the God can only act based on the requests of those that are devoted and faithful to him. Its not worship (Mammon doesn't have many worshipers, but has no problem finding those he can act through) but yes Arawn would have a hard time finding those immediatly.

But if he wanted to act in creation he would simply pick a few people to do his will and have his angels speak to them (or speak to them directly) and start building from there. So it wouldn't be to hard if he was interested, which he isnt.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

It isn't so much that a god's power is proportional to the number of worshipers as that, for the most part, gods must act through and/or for their followers, and the follower's ability to perform miracles in the gods name depends on the strength of their faith in the god. The compact places almost no limits on what a god can do to those completely loyal to him, but doesn't allow them to do much of anything to those devoted to another without first getting permission from said other god. That applies equally for helping or hurting. That is why Agares cannot just send an army of Balors into Cahir Abby to kill Einion Logos, but can send them to Shard to collect the soul of Hairen Carashnel (the author of the Infernal Grimorie). I suspect that this protection is greatest for the Luonnatar, as it is impossible to even try to get permission from The One. (Of course, this requires true devotion so merely saying you follow The One wouldn't protect you from anything. Likewise, a vampire using symbols of Sirona or Lugus to ward off demons would be met only with laughter before being tortured to death.)


Now that I think of it, it might be possible for devotion to another mortal to count just as well as devotion to a god. As such, those completely loyal to Auric would be as protected as those who were loyal to Mulcarn in the previous age, even before Auric really starts his assent into godhood. Of course, it is likely a lot easier for a god to get permission from a mortal to act on his followers than from a fellow god, and this permission likely doesn't have to given consciously or without coercion. The mortal to whom others are devoted would have to have some level of devotion to someone or something else. If the god-king's loyalty was entirely to himself, then that would actually mean his soul belongs to Mammon so the evil gods could do whatever they like to him to extort the right to do whatever they want to his followers. Theoretically a whole nation could be protected through devotion to a righteous god-king, but a righteous king would not accept being treated as a god.


The Sidar still revere Arawn greatly, so if he wanted to he could easily form a new priesthood and begin taking action through them. Their reverence may have been discouraged enough to no longer be true worship, but many among them are still eager to do his will (so eager they'll fall for Laroth's tricks).

 

[Darksaber1]

Now that I think of it, it might be possible for devotion to another mortal to count just as well as devotion to a god. As such, those completely loyal to Auric would be as protected as those who were loyal to Mulcarn in the previous age, even before Auric really starts his assent into godhood. Of course, it is likely a lot easier for a god to get permission from a mortal to act on his followers than from a fellow god, and this permission likely doesn't have to given consciously or without coercion. The mortal to whom others are devoted would have to have some level of devotion to someone or something else. If the god-king's loyalty was entirely to himself, then that would actually mean his soul belongs to Mammon so the evil gods could do whatever they like to him to extort the right to do whatever they want to his followers. Theoretically a whole nation could be protected through devotion to a righteous god-king, but a righteous king would not accept being treated as a god.

Owww, MY BRAIN HURTS

 

[Tasunke]

Not as painful as thinking about the spiral effect of time travel though

Which is perhaps why I am interested in that new temporal based RTS

 

[Tyrs]

And also why I am glad Kael nixed the whole time travel thing for Erebus.

 

[cyther]

There is time travel but only The One can do it using temporance.

 

[Seon]

You know, wouldn't that mean that the One can correct his mistake? Jump back in time over and over again until he suceeds?

Or is that a paradox?

 

[Guale]

But if the one is perfect he would have no need to fix his mistakes and if he is truly omnipotent then he would know the outcome of a decision before making it and therefore not need to travel back to correct it.

 

[Tasunke]

Theoretically you would think Time Travel would be possible with Dimensional magic and Ceridwen. Well, probably only travelling FORWARD in time anyways. After all, the only way someone using only 3 dimenions can alter the 4th dimension is by changing the forward momentum perception anyways. ie most likely the only possible time travel is suspended animation or travelling to the future. (relative suspended animation of course ... using excessive speeds)

 

[Seon]

I don't think Ceridwan have complete dominion over 3 dimensional forces, she just knows a lot about planes of existence and knows a couple of back doors to every single one of them.

 

[Kyzarc Fotjage]

Likewise, a vampire using symbols of Sirona or Lugus to ward off demons would be met only with laughter before being tortured to death.)

Salem's Lot anyone?

Now that I think of it, it might be possible for devotion to another mortal to count just as well as devotion to a god. As such, those completely loyal to Auric would be as protected as those who were loyal to Mulcarn in the previous age, even before Auric really starts his assent into godhood. Of course, it is likely a lot easier for a god to get permission from a mortal to act on his followers than from a fellow god, and this permission likely doesn't have to given consciously or without coercion. The mortal to whom others are devoted would have to have some level of devotion to someone or something else. If the god-king's loyalty was entirely to himself, then that would actually mean his soul belongs to Mammon so the evil gods could do whatever they like to him to extort the right to do whatever they want to his followers. Theoretically a whole nation could be protected through devotion to a righteous god-king, but a righteous king would not accept being treated as a god.

What about Cardith Lorda? Would he count as a righteous God-king? (Or Mua'dib? or Paul II, the God-Emperor?)

 

[Seon]

Good point, but he doesn't count himself as a god... so... umm.... wait a second, what does protection mean in general?

Soo... umm... I don't know, the Kuriotates does seem to have some kind of special Aura of mystery around them, I always assumed that it was dragon Pheromone that Cardith was excreting. I didn't think of that though...