The UNREAL Walkthrough

[futurehermit]

The reason is the difference between AI bonus on Emperor Vs. Immortal is HUGE. Check out the handicap in the XML file and you should know.

Stepping from say Noble to Prince is just not the same as from Emperor to Immortal.

If you think Emperor is "expert" level, what would you call Immortal or Deity?

I would never call myself "expert" nor I would call anyone "noob". There are always people who can do better than myself. That is my point and my advice to Obsolete.

I'm not saying emperor is expert, but i would hardly call it intermediate. There are what 8-9 skill levels with noble-prince being in the middle? I would say settler-warlord = beginner. Noble-monarch = intermediate. emperor-immortal = expert. deity = superstar The difference between emperor and immortal may be a lot, but is it greater than the difference between noble and monarch? The strategy at emperor+ is pretty much the same anyways: war, early and often.

I agree though that Obsolete could self-present a bit more moderately, but hey he backed up his smack with a couple of nice wins

 

[DrewBledsoe]

I'm not saying emperor is expert, but i would hardly call it intermediate. There are what 8-9 skill levels with noble-prince being in the middle? I would say settler-warlord = beginner. Noble-monarch = intermediate. emperor-immortal = expert. deity = superstar The difference between emperor and immortal may be a lot, but is it greater than the difference between noble and monarch? The strategy at emperor+ is pretty much the same anyways: war, early and often.

I agree though that Obsolete could self-present a bit more moderately, but hey he backed up his smack with a couple of nice wins

He has a trumpet, and he likes to blow it

Here's my Bugle.

Berlin I mentioned in other thread. Frederick, so not Ind, had no stone so no point in trying for Pyramids, not really much natural production. My own mod rules, so I have Monarch pens, ai has emp bonuses, PLUS all techs 50% more expensive (and lots of little and large other things). Hence correct earth history sort of timeline in the actual date. Running mostly a CE completely out teching the world thanks mainly to obscene Berlin.

Fractal/huge map.Had only one teeny war against India (rand pers, he's I think one of the Khans or Shaka), and aquired 2 cities(only iron on continent weird), don't even have a GG. Just fast expansion and Berlin. So even with a non industious leader, and no stone, its worked wonders (haha), and the philo bonus is possibly even greater than the Ind one. In this case, probably OX uni and not IW to go with NE in cap. i haven't and won't touch representation either, Uni Suff of course for CE.

Oh btw, you don't get a free tech for Lib in my game either, its too cheesy for me

 

[obsolete]

First of all, I consider Emperor as intermediate level….. You can play this map and finish it in a much better time and much more efficient fashion.

First of all, I won’t doubt that you believe so ACivFan. I also don’t doubt that you know more than the average player. In fact, is the whole doubt issue that started this whole thing in the first place. It started with doubt about it being possible at all, so I did it on Monarch to prove my point. Then it was thought to be a possible fluke, and doubted to be able to work on Emperor. So then I had to do yet another in quick order to try and still prove myself there.

All in all, even though they were just 2 games, they still took more hours than I was hoping for, hours which I really didn’t have this week, nor was I planning to spend on. Summer is short, and between work, and all my other chores on the weekends, etc, I don’t get infinite amount of time to play. Though I wish I had!

That being said, I am going to spend the next week trying to catch up in what I missed this week, and get my other priorities set like moving into another house soon and other life complications.

If I do another walkthrough sometime in the near future, I will end up doing another leader to further prove a point. Anyhow, I’m sort of veering off track here, but I will say this. Yes you can play other ways in a faster time, but so what?

I already mentioned before, I don’t care about silly brownie points. I play to win. A strategy that wins sooner is not any indication at all it is a better strategy. It is risk management that matters. If I tell you I have a strategy that wins EVERY TIME, but it always takes the full amount of turns. Would you turn that down for another strategy that works 10% of the time, because it is possible to win by 400 A.D.?

I play to solidify my wins. That means, I often slow down my teching late, even if I have the lead to ensure my odds of winning. I even trail behind the AI in the space race often on purpose because I want to use extra gold etc to keep my units up to date and do some other things. I want to be prepared for a last minute surprise attack, etc. Now sure, I can race and take gambles I wont be attacked, and if it all works out I can shave off many turns. But then you have to ask yourself, did I get lucky?

If I think I can get an early diplo win by vassaling one more civ, but I only have a 50% chance to win that war, but I have a 90% chance to win the space race when it comes…. Which would you choose if your REAL LIFE depended on it?


And now, to answere a few things I may have missed earlier..

I feel like workshops would help your production a lot later in the game instead of those lumber mills. Late game workshops are quite nice actually under state property. Late game you also have enough health as not to need the health from forests.

I don’t like workshops that much because of the food issue, and we know in SE hybrids that food is very important. Also removing a tree causes less health. But, even if we do have the health issue solved, I can’t count on running SP to negate the food problem. I am either using another civic because the benefits outweigh SP, or I am forced to run another civic due to UN issues, etc.

Otherwise… I’d like to have more workshops.

2 quick questions :
- You hardly talk about trade. Is it not that great, or an important part of your strategy ?
- How do you work around the happiness caps in the early game ? I would imagine the two are connected, but there is hardly any mention of these. Especially in the 'impossible' walkthrough, I was always wondering where you got the happy resources and at what price.

I don’t hardly talk much about trade because it is sort of common sense. During my walk-throughs I sort of stopped taking screen shots on trade menus because I didn’t want to crowed with 100 extra shots that really aren’t very important. Generally I like to trade and get what I can with things I don’t need, however often I will refuse items when I want to deny a civ the benefit. This is not just military resources, but sometimes useless stuff like crabs and wheat when a civ has numerous cities. I’d much rather trade to smaller cities because the smaller doesn’t benefit as much from the larger. But again, diplo has to be a concern and many other reasons, so it can get complicated.

Some of the happiness I got was from civics (Rep.), others from resources, and also for having one unit located in the city Also, in the late stage media wonders help also. Three of these give a happy resource. But also you can build items that multiply the happiness from these like radio towers. Also, if I have a religion, I’ll build temple to get an extra happy person, etc. And then we have the theatre, forges etc all that has its effects. Sometimes I’ll turn on culture slider during very long warring to prevent my cities from starving down. Actually I think a fault of mine is not cranking up the culture slider enough sometimes.

1. Usually if I build too many wonders at the start and less units, one of the AI's attacks. Especially Toguwaka as most aggressive civilizations are suspect. How is it that you managed to avoid been attacked early, was it coincidence, giving them what they want? Do you get open borders and scout their cities?

Well, Togu sure loves to attack once he gets his UU dudes all ready. Usually he’s dossile before then if you DON'T give him a reason to attack. There are some tricky situations though, if he doesn’t have space around him to settle anymore, then watch out. That’s another reason I attacked him with axes when he expanded close to me. Even if his culture is not touching yours, if expansion room is getting cramped, watch out.

I think the real early rusher to beware of is shaka. He expands very rapidly, and swarms the board with military units. And those units are his UU which start out right from the gate. Yup, no metals needed like in Togu’s case. Add up the fact that he is aggressive, too and you have a person who generally should be dealt with VERY early. Togu is a little puppy in comparison at that stage.

There is a bunch of other factors in this, but that would take pages to get into.

P.S. I also don’t sign open borders for the hell of it with people like Togu. I don’t like them mapping my territory so then they:

#1 know where to attack
#2 see the resources I have, which then give them ideas to attack to take those resources

 

[Phrederick]

#1 You do NOT need stone or marble to make this work!

#2 You do NOT need industrious.
Also you do NOT need pyramids!

This is a creative strat that I would never think of trying on my own, and it certainly did win a game on emperor, as industrious, with an insanely good capitol site, with pyramids. But it simply is not going to be at all convincing until you use this strategy to win without those benefits.

My challenge: Play a game with:

• A non-industrious civ
• No floodplains in the capitol BFC
• No more than 8 forests in the capitol BFC
• No built cottages or lighbulbing techs

If you do that, I'll be very impressed.

If you want to convince people that this strategy is a viable alternative, that "the claims you need to be building [cottages] all over the place to win on these levels is a myth" and "winning without lightbulbing can be done[on these levels]" then you need to play a game where your starting position isn't so generous. It looks like it's been altered in the game editor, or that you regenerated the map 100 times until it came out that good. In fact the more I look at it, the more likely I think it is that you did one or the other. Monarch game: four floodplains, wheat sheep and corn, four plains hills and a grasslands hill, four forested grasslands and two forested plains. Emperor game: four floodplains, cows copper and ivory, a plains hill and a grasslands hill, six forested grasslands and four forested plains. Not a single tile without some sort of bonus? Not a SINGLE tile that only gives two food + hammers out of the gate? I get a game like that one out of one hundred starts, maybe. The way to show off an original and interesting strategy is with a challenging start. Not a cakewalk.

I know it takes a lot of time to post a walkthrough like this, and I really do appreciate it. I just wish you would have made it a little more challenging with more realistic starting location.

 

[JujuLautre]

I already mentioned before, I don’t care about silly brownie points. I play to win. A strategy that wins sooner is not any indication at all it is a better strategy. It is risk management that matters. If I tell you I have a strategy that wins EVERY TIME, but it always takes the full amount of turns. Would you turn that down for another strategy that works 10% of the time, because it is possible to win by 400 A.D.?

Playing Civ, if the 10% strategy gives me more fun and enjoyement, I'll play it happily and discard the 100% strategy most of the time.

 

[Quornix]

This is a creative strat that I would never think of trying on my own, and it certainly did win a game on emperor, as industrious, with an insanely good capitol site, with pyramids. But it simply is not going to be at all convincing until you use this strategy to win without those benefits.

My challenge: Play a game with:

• A non-industrious civ
• No floodplains in the capitol BFC
• No more than 8 forests in the capitol BFC
• No built cottages or lighbulbing techs

If you do that, I'll be very impressed.

If you want to convince people that this strategy is a viable alternative, that "the claims you need to be building [cottages] all over the place to win on these levels is a myth" and "winning without lightbulbing can be done[on these levels]" then you need to play a game where your starting position isn't so generous. It looks like it's been altered in the game editor, or that you regenerated the map 100 times until it came out that good. In fact the more I look at it, the more likely I think it is that you did one or the other. Monarch game: four floodplains, wheat sheep and corn, four plains hills and a grasslands hill, four forested grasslands and two forested plains. Emperor game: four floodplains, cows copper and ivory, a plains hill and a grasslands hill, six forested grasslands and four forested plains. Not a single tile without some sort of bonus? Not a SINGLE tile that only gives two food + hammers out of the gate? I get a game like that one out of one hundred starts, maybe. The way to show off an original and interesting strategy is with a challenging start. Not a cakewalk.

I know it takes a lot of time to post a walkthrough like this, and I really do appreciate it. I just wish you would have made it a little more challenging with more realistic starting location.

I'm not sure why his starting position is such a big deal on this. The floodplains give a grand total of +4 food vs. open grassland, with four population working them. Replace all four with four open grasslands, one with corn, and he's in a better spot -- no health problems. He chopped all of three forests (comparing the original map to the city shot while he was working on Constitution), and I'm sure he wasn't working them all when having three total + was a big deal (about the first 20 turns).

This isn't an insane starting position. It's not crap, but he didn't have three plains/hills/gold tiles or grassland/hills/river/gems to boost his research. I've gotten both.

The first game had, what, two floodplains? Floodplains are great for cottages, because you can put a cottage on them, and grow your population while you grow the cottages. If you're looking for specialists, though, you want fewer, high-density food sources so you can run more specialists at a given food level. Well, I guess you always want more high-density food sources, but floodplains are only moderate for that purpose.

Capitals tend to be pretty good -- if they aren't, they get clams or something thrown on top. And you can only work so many tiles at once early on. While you may not often have all 20 squares as 3 raw + , you rarely have less than 6-8.

I have much more of an issue with his leader choice -- Industrial, plus Ag as a starting tech, and Obelisks as a very early GPP booster really will help him take off on this strat.

 

[futurehermit]

The thing that makes the starting location so great is NOT the floodplains. I repeat NOT the floodplains.

What makes the starting location so great is the PRODUCTION. Copper, cows, elephants, city on plains hill, another plains hill, and a grassland hill. That's a lot of production for this strat.

Try this strategy on a coastal capital. Try this strategy where you get mostly floodplains/grassland/plains. Even covered with a number of forests, your production is going to be significantly less. Even with an industrious leader, if you have a low-production capital, you can kiss this strategy goodbye.

 

[madscientist]

I must admit I am trying this approach with my current game. It's a technique I have never tried so I can see myself using a modified approach to it. This method involves a few things I have figured out 1) all GP get settles in the capital, 2) build farms and production, forget commerce from tiles unless it's there (spices/sugar/gold/gems etc...), 3) expand slowly, 4) wait to go to war if you can. At least that is what I get out of it.

I am playing on monarch, random huge map (I do not play only a continant map), marathon speed. My guess is this technique may not be so good for marathon speed or huge maps but we'll see. On the other hand starting 2 cities for a long time on huge will keep your enemies away longer and still leave area to expand.

My rules to use this, no cottages in first two cities, after that I am free to build them prudently (I will not spam on grasslands though). I will settle all great people in my gapital with the following exceptions A) Great artists are reserved for I usually do with them since I think I utilize them well and they offer NO production bonus, B) I will use one Great Scientists (if I get one) to lightbulb Philosophy if I can get Taoism first (this is a big advantage I think and would always do this). If I do not get a GS in time, so be it. I will not bulb paper or education though, no bulbibg theology (GP), metal working (GM), or Machinery (GE). Here we go.

So I have tried this approach with a random leader, got Hatsheput. Capital had limited production, built warrior settler (got nice horse city as sister city) went for GW first, chopped alot, got 3/2 of the way before rouge archers came and took Thebes. Game over. To be fair this is only my second monarch game and I noted that barbs come a little earlier so my timing was off, this game was my misplay.

Second game, randomly got Tokugawa on a southern iceberg, on coast, miles from grasslands. Well not the setting I want to learnt his with, I quit this game.

Third, selected Ramses II. Now I know the examples games were won with this leader but he is my second favorite (after Washington), plus industrious will help in getting a big production capital. Start on coast, little production, not what I looking for. I quit this game. Now I do want a fair chance to test this system out, so I want a city with at least some production.

Try Ramses again. Started on an obvious archeopolego map, no neighbors. Got a great starting location, 5 hills, forrests, corn, a seafood, only 4 coast tiles (including seafood so only 3 2 food tiles). Second city pretty good, all hills (settled on one), one seafood, pigs on a hill, but quite a few 2 food sea tiles. I have built stonehenge/great wall currently building pyramids (my they do go fast with so much prodcution). I plan to run 2 priests per city once pyramids are built, then beeline for the oracle with which ever city will get it first (for this wonder I do not care if the GP points are spread out) I really want early metal working, early forges, early colossus (if I had to start this game on a coast tile I want to get to financial status fast).

I will keep all posted how I do. Now I am not the best player here (my god, look at the clash of the war-monger epic, I lost that game very early), so if I can get this strat to work maybe it can be a useful strategy.

 

[Snaaty]

...wanted to try this strat in the "emperor comparison game" mrchadt has currently running, just to understand obsolete´s fierce arguing in favour to this strategy better:http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=231314

...only to find out that the starting site there has nada producition (zero, null, niente...), so went back to the good old hybrid approach...

...and guess what, miltrad hits home around 600 AD and the cavalry rush will start around 800 AD (mrchadt will post my saves soon) and there is NO way ANY of the neighbours will survive a cavalry invasion BEFORE 1000 AD on emperor...

...

What I want to say is only, that this approach here is certainly quite strong on some (quite rare) circumstances, but other approaches also win the game (maybe even easier/faster)

 

[Lidjis]

The thing that makes the starting location so great is NOT the floodplains. I repeat NOT the floodplains.

What makes the starting location so great is the PRODUCTION. Copper, cows, elephants, city on plains hill, another plains hill, and a grassland hill. That's a lot of production for this strat.

Try this strategy on a coastal capital. Try this strategy where you get mostly floodplains/grassland/plains. Even covered with a number of forests, your production is going to be significantly less. Even with an industrious leader, if you have a low-production capital, you can kiss this strategy goodbye.

I don't think he should be that strongly blamed for using a start where his strategy works. I have a lot less trouble with "hey I have this new strategy which revolves around building wonders and settled specialists, so I am going to use a start with good production to demonstrate it" than if he had used some crazy start with 3 gem mines. Not all strats work on all starting positions, that is a fact. For example, I recently had a start with 6 plains, 2 forested plains, and about 15 floodplains. Luckily I was expansive! My point is that trying to build wonders in that city would be foolish and futile. I don't think obselete's strategy is useable everytime, but he has demonstrated that it works in some situations. Every start demands a different strategy, and I appreciate that obselete has given me another option to consider in certain kinds of starts.

 

[frob2900]

Every start demands a different strategy, and I appreciate that obselete has given me another option to consider in certain kinds of starts.

And that option is, only have a one or two cities and build every wonder you can and settle the Great People? I mean, doesn't everyone do this when they first start playing Civ IV?

Like I said earlier, the trick to this strategy is the micromanagement/Cavalry spam, and they are important with any strategy, so I fail to feel the "waves of newness" wash over me, like many people here.

 

[futurehermit]

I don't think he should be that strongly blamed for using a start where his strategy works. I have a lot less trouble with "hey I have this new strategy which revolves around building wonders and settled specialists, so I am going to use a start with good production to demonstrate it" than if he had used some crazy start with 3 gem mines. Not all strats work on all starting positions, that is a fact. For example, I recently had a start with 6 plains, 2 forested plains, and about 15 floodplains. Luckily I was expansive! My point is that trying to build wonders in that city would be foolish and futile. I don't think obselete's strategy is useable everytime, but he has demonstrated that it works in some situations. Every start demands a different strategy, and I appreciate that obselete has given me another option to consider in certain kinds of starts.

I'm the one DEFENDING him I'm not criticizing him for using a situation-specific strategies: THEY ALL ARE (except maybe cav beeline as snaaty points out but that is getting nerfed in bts!)

And that option is, only have a one or two cities and build every wonder you can and settle the Great People? I mean, doesn't everyone do this when they first start playing Civ IV?

New players don't win on emperor. Plain and simple.

 

[frob2900]

New players don't win on emperor. Plain and simple.

Yes, exactly, which is what I meant with the next paragraph:

Like I said earlier, the trick to this strategy is the micromanagement/Cavalry spam

[EDIT]
The point is that this may look like an attractive, "Hey, yeah, wonders! I like those too!"-strategy for newer players, but it is being used in the hands of a skilled player (and somewhat special start settings), so there is much more too it than some people keep commenting on.

In fact I'm very certain that you could do every "no, no" in the book such as early religion etc. if you backed them up with proper micromanagement/key military beeline play.

 

[Joxer]

I must voice my skepticism, but the starts seem "staged." In both games you were able to start off with flood plains, and exactly 4 flood plains, no other industrious civs, and the same leader. Too many coincidences if you are trying to prove that this strat can be effective on any given game.

You chide others for using crutches, can you let go of yours and play another game with a leader who is not industrious and against Rameses or other civs who are?

I will concede the different approach to the settled GP of the SE economy as a new twist. It will be especially tough to not use the prophet on a shrine. With modifiers, those 2 little hammers become huge. Even buy rushing a building would not compare once the modifiers are applied to the priest.

 

[UncleJJ]

@frob2900 ... I don't think this is the result of any micromanagement. Just take a look at his Liberty save.

BTW, I have included another save here, for just 1 turn before the statue is completed.

Liberty

You'll see a very underdeveloped and non micromanaged game. His second city is working 3 unimproved grassland tiles and forests in 1505AD He has two workers both automated He had only played for 1 hour 16 mins at that stage. I have never seen such a neglected game on Emperor. He must have just been pressing end of turn

The serious point here is; this could have been done so much better and I expect with an improved result.

 

[futurehermit]

He was also rushing through the game to post it for our benefit. Playing and posting a game is quite time consuming, having done it myself on occasion.

I agree though that I would like to see if this strat can be done with a non-industrious leader versus one or more industrious leaders present in the world.

With a high-production capital, it could produce interesting results (I would gather that it could still be possible, although you might miss an early wonder or two, notably the oracle). If you had stone and/or marble, obviously that would help a lot.

Having to build 3 walls in order to build the GW in the xpac will cramp this strat a lot though imho!!!

 

[frob2900]

You'll see a very underdeveloped and non micromanaged game. His second city is working 3 unimproved grassland tiles and forests in 1505AD He has two workers both automated He had only played for 1 hour 16 mins at that stage. I have never seen such a neglected game on Emperor. He must have just been pressing end of turn

So if it's neglected and underdeveloped: whats the catch??

Is wonder spamming + specialist settling the sure fire way to win emperor, regardless of how badly you play?

I think not.

Is it the Cavalry spam?

He says it isnt.

Quite the conundrum

[EDIT]
To clarify, I'm not criticizing obsoletes strategy as such (I haven't really formed an opinion on it except doubt) but more the reactions such as:

"Wow, this strategy is really good, and it doesn't require micromanaging and it should probably work without industrious/stone etc."

When it would be so easy to just roll up a start without floodplains/plains hills/stone, mismanage the game and subsequently lose like you've never lost before. Then come to the conclusion that there must be something more to it.

 

[Maydrock]

WOTM 11 lends itself well to this strategy and would be a good basis for everyone to compare results. Only problem some may have is it is at warlord/noble difficulty, but definantly a fun game to play for one last cav rush before BtS.

 

[Roxlimn]

Personally, I don't see what all the excitement about obsolete is. The strategy obviously works. The starts are good, but not improbably so, and you can't cheat the saves.

What's more important is discussing why it works. Aside from the snowballing Wonders effect, which anyone who's played Industrious hopefully is aware of (because of the infamous GP farm), I believe that a major component of the early ramp up is lack of small early cities.

Cities below the size of 3 generally cost more than they're worth, especially early on, what with the unit defense and what-not, and if they're significantly far from the capital, they could easily cost much more, breaking even only at size 5 or so.

If you don't have such cities to maintain and defend, you could focus solely on production boosting and building as well as science, without spending on cities that are only costing you without benefiting you.

If you take cities instead through war, and especially if you take them later on once you have CoL to help keep empire costs down, you can acquire cities that pay for themselves almost from the get-go, without the awkward growing-up stage.

I don't think for a second that obsolete can or will employ a wonder-building strategy if he's forced to play as Genghis Khan and neither stone or marble, for instance. Genghis Khan's strengths do not play to such a technique, and it IS so much easier to take wonders that are already built than to build them yourself if you're not Industrious.

A great Production City that doesn't house wonders won't play so much to the wonder-building super-city approach, but settling Priests and MIs and MAs in the IW city will do much the same for producing units.

 

[Joxer]

Personally, I don't see what all the excitement about obsolete is.

My interest is his claim that it can be replicated without the Industrious trait. He claims to play safely and take his time, but the whole strat seems like a much bigger gamble.

Bold claims, and ones many people would like to see truly tested.