The war with the Spanish

I like Provo idea (post 12). And I remember he said people thought he was a
weak player. So, Provolution I have a challenge for you, against yourself:

Make a real warplan against the spanyards (afterall they have a Religion and a
Shrine that belongs to us).

I know the current data is almost zero, but do it. Say the quality of needed
troops, so that Researchers know the path and Builders resources; and the quantity, so that Builders can know what to do, and give timings and present
ways and ask for protection.

Everybody knows that time and surprises shall make some changes but that's
the begin and the way.

If you so wish, I can help in my role of Loyal Opposition.

My best regards,
 
we should switch all of our espionage allotment to spanish, to unlock better intellegence.

the purpose of my propesed first war is to make the secpond war effective.
 
Provolution said:
I would still like to have IW, to actually do something.
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QFE. This is kinda funny, if it means what it seems to mean.

I'd also like to see that war plan. How many units, what kind, how long will they take to build? What goals for the war? What real intel do we have other than the religion indicator on the score? Are we stronger or weaker? (my bet is on weaker given difficulty level)
 
I said we need to map their lands first, I have asked for a open border agreement to scout them out and get Hinduism. Warlords will build barracks and stables, and then we may make the warplan.

We cannot make a proper warplan before we uncovered iron or not. That is a parameter that will decide on the specifics.
 
Can you give an estimated timeframe for when a war might be doable? It would help to know if we should consider acquiring some of the desired techs via trade instead of via research. ;)
 
I'd also like to see that war plan. How many units, what kind, how long will they take to build? What goals for the war? What real intel do we have other than the religion indicator on the score? Are we stronger or weaker? (my bet is on weaker given difficulty level
Click to expand...

That would be one hell of a battleplan report :crazyeye:. All of the what ifs would keep him busy for a week. There are things we can do to begin preperation but a true battleplan is a little while off still. If we research Archery and IW in the next 3-4 techs, scout Hatty , increase espionage on her and open our borders we will have done what we can do for now as far as warplanning. We already have a speculation thread here.
 
Yeah, he wishes me no good, and would just give me a lot of work he will just butcher, like the Dye Plan I came up with. I prefer to time the complete plan when the time is right.
Also, forward the argument to NZL, not me. He is our Warlord.
 
Lord Civius said:
That would be one hell of a battleplan report :crazyeye:. All of the what ifs would keep him busy for a week. There are things we can do to begin preperation but a true battleplan is a little while off still. If we research Archery and IW in the next 3-4 techs, scout Hatty , increase espionage on her and open our borders we will have done what we can do for now as far as warplanning. We already have a speculation thread here.
Click to expand...

Yup - it is a lot of work.

We've got other areas where we're making decisions expecting a successful war. No information is given about why that belief is held so strongly, nor mention of a fallback plan.

This war seems be be core to the plans of the Triad, and yet there is minimal information given. Yes, it is difficult to get full details about the matter right now. I certainly am not looking for that. There is information that can be provided, and should be provided in clear, uncertain terms.

1) What are the goals of this war? Not the vague promises and hints, but at what point is the war considered "successful". If we can go farther because the war is going well - that's great! But what is the strategic objectives of this war?

2) Best guess as to the relative strength

3) Rough estimate as to what needs to be available for us to succeed in this war

This war is a major decision that has strong implications for the entire nation. A failure here could doom our civilization, and yet we're getting vague promises and assurances. That's not enough.

-- Ravensfire
 
The point of these debates is to reveal the truth of whether the strategy's goals can be achieved, or if they are just the bait part of a bait & switch marketing method. If the goals can be achieved, then surely there can be some kind of estimate at how to achieve them.

I have already revealed that I'm not a high level player, nor an expert on warfare. I'm looking for an education here, not just a debate. Yes, I'm going to question things that are unclear, but there is nothing to fear if the plan is a solid one.
 
Before I start I would like to point out that although I am a member of the philosophers, I am merely stating my own oppinion which may differ from my factions.

As I see it

1) our primary goal is to stop hatty from expanding, worker steal, pillage, destroy settlers in the open. If we can keep her restricted to one undeveloped city the war is a success. Our secondary goal is to capture the Hindu holy city. If we manage this the war is a complete success. Whether we do it sooner rather than later is dependant on Hatty's strength when our Horse Archers turn up.

2) I doubt hatty is strong, although we have already seen she has archers, she has clearly also researched into religion and is unlikely to have connected up to bronze (if she has discovered it). Remember we have popped 3 techs from huts, we are likely to be tech superior. I imagine she has at most 2 archers and a warrior at the moment.

3) To achieve our primary goal we should need only 2 horse archers, possibly even just the one. Without bronze she will not be able to build anything capable of taking down a horse archer without massively superior numbers.

To achieve objective two (capture of the holy city) is more difficult, as then her archers come into there own. It all depends on how many archers, whether the city is on a hill and whether her archers are upgraded. If all these points are in our favour, i.e 2 archers in a grassland city with unupgraded archers, I think 3 horsemen should have no problem taking them down. I'd actually expect the first two to win in fact wihtout the need for the third.

If she is better defended we will need to wait for a bit until we have better units to attack with (cats, swords), but due to the strategy of expansion prevention she shouldn't be able to build anything more than archers at this point. Thus even if she is currently heavily defended an early start to the war will benefit us in the long run
 
We actualy do not know if Spain or Babylon has actualy researched archery. They start with 1-2 archers on this level (I forget which) but they do not start with the technology, so they can not make any more until they research it. This means we need to see 3 different archers to confirm archery has been learned
 
Several people are asking for more specifics for a future war with spain. It is early so anything i say here can change and I am in control of very little of what goes on here. But this discussion we are having is important as we need to be coordinated in tech, units, diplomacy and movements.

In terms of the next turnset. It will most likely be about scouting.

First the couple of things that fall in my sphere of influence (as follower of the word) that I think must be done.

1) Put all espionage into Spain. We are very close to seeing there graph and we would like to be able to see there tech path. Espionage towards babylon is not nearly as usefull right now.

2) Open boarders with both Babylon and Spain
Open with babylon to start the march to a + modifier and allow our scout to pass through there lands and scout there capitol
Open Boarders to spain (most important) to encourage religion spread and to allow our units to scout



Now for things outside my sphere of control. These are merly suggestions, i do not control these actions but I anm used to playing on these levels and above. From what i know now this is how i would apporach spain and war

1) we need to make sure our city 2 is safe and secure, this takes precidence over any military action put forward. It is no use to lose it to spain or the barbs. So if problems come up up there we need to address them. I hope nobody disagrrees with this

2) We are at 2400BC, we are still early and means that wars are not only taking cities but also about weakening an oponent so they will be less of a problem later. If we go to war relatively soon (next 10-30 turns) then we do not need to be taking cities but workers. If we go to war later, then we should be taking both workers and cities. At this early stage with low populations and few inter civ contacts, declaring war does not have the other negative conquenses it has later.

3) I do propose that we should look to declare war on spain when
A) We have two horse archers built
B) We can take at least one worker the first turn of the war
I would also like to scout spain before executing this plan.
I am not going to try to estimate how long it will take to have two horse archers ready. Other factors may come into play and i am to lasy to open the game and do the math.

The gain for this war
1 or 2 workers
A few gold from Pilaging
a drastic reduction in Spains power and ability to develope. Our gain in worker(s) is there loss. Particulaily if we can put them down to zero workers. They then fall behind and become an easier oppenent to handle later. What we add to us we subtract from them. This idea of a worker steal war was in the triad platform.

I see this as enough benifit for little effort on our part


In conducting the war I would place a horse archer of our own in the fat cross of Madrid. Once a worker (or two if they have two) is in a place they can be stolen, move the horse archer out of cultural boundaries, declare war and move in and take the work. They have a movement of two and as long as Spain does not have copper she will not be able to beat them. If she has copper, we need both horse archers on the worker, as one may die. Escourt workers back to home and have horse archers return to pillage any improvements. When possible I would settle for neutral peace.

If spain makes a mistake and leaves a city underdefended or leaves a city only guarded with warriors. We try to take it. If in our scouting we discover that Spain is guarding a city only with warriors or has a small city with 1 archer, we may need to stop and take a carefull look at it as we may want to take the city now.

I would be planning in long term to take Spain completely out, but we are not far enough along to be more specific about when. I would just venture to say i hope we could do it in the BC Era.


Again this part is not traid docturine but my opinion as a member of the traid and a war of waging war that I have found very successfull at this level. Much of this lies in the hands of others. Consider it as you wish.
 
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