The worlds two largest EVER empires not in game??

[GMillie]

Shakespeare I'll give, but that's just one man.

The industrial revolution was mostly down to the steam engine, courtesy of a certain Scotsman, James Watt. This is the #1 issue I have with the English, claiming credit for stuff you didn't do.

Well, now here's the problem. Things don't happen in isolation, nor do nations become "great" or "invent" things.

Could Watt have invented the steam engine without the prerequisite financial and educational investment that came from the situation in "The West", and more specifically Britain during this period?

Could Bell have "invented" the telephone? Or Baird the television?

No. So it's as equally ridiculous to say that "Scotland is responsible for all Britian's achievements" as it is to say "England is the only reason Scotland does anything".

The industrial revolution (which never existed, by the way - just like most Whiggish interpretations of history, it's just a label attached to a number of perceived social changes) was down to a number of factors. The financial expansion of the bourgeois classes. The improved agricultural techniques. The rationalisation of engineering, agriculture, social policies, tax collection and so forth. The "discovery" of steel. The improvements to mining efficiency. The improved education of the higher classes. Social acceptance of new ideas based on "science".

All of these things allowed someone who happened to be from Scotland to invent the steam engine for the purposes of industry (he wasn't the first to work out that steam pressure could make things move).

No nation and no man is an island.

 

[Jimbo30]

In 1603, King James VI of Scotland ascended to the English throne and in 1604 negotiated the Treaty of London, ending hostilities with Spain.

You do realise this meant that the Scottish King took over the English crown, right? So in contrast to an earlier claim that Scots never made any foreign policy, straight away we can see that the Scottish King absorbed the English crown and immediately started creating foreign policy.

 

[Babydavy]

Wow, there's a lot of differing opinions in this thread.

I can't say that I'm sorry that the British empire is not in the game, I would prefer to play as Celtic (or English) rather than British TBH. It's fair enough that the English are in the game, they have been more influential in world history than the other British countries.

As for the Mongols, I'm sure they also will be in the game at a later point.

For the record, I'm Scottish, and have no axe to grind. But I do think I'm from a different Civilsation (spelling looks weird huh?) to my English cousins

 

[Jimbo30]

Well, now here's the problem. Things don't happen in isolation, nor do nations become "great" or "invent" things.

Could Watt have invented the steam engine without the prerequisite financial and educational investment that came from the situation in "The West", and more specifically Britain during this period?

Could Bell have "invented" the telephone? Or Baird the television?

No. So it's as equally ridiculous to say that "Scotland is responsible for all Britian's achievements" as it is to say "England is the only reason Scotland does anything".

The industrial revolution (which never existed, by the way - just like most Whiggish interpretations of history, it's just a label attached to a number of perceived social changes) was down to a number of factors. The financial expansion of the bourgeois classes. The improved agricultural techniques. The rationalisation of engineering, agriculture, social policies, tax collection and so forth. The "discovery" of steel. The improvements to mining efficiency. The improved education of the higher classes. Social acceptance of new ideas based on "science".

All of these things allowed someone who happened to be from Scotland to invent the steam engine for the purposes of industry (he wasn't the first to work out that steam pressure could make things move).

No nation and no man is an island.

I'm not disagreeing with you. What I'm disagreeing with is the notion that England created the industrial revolution, and how easily the English make these kind of claims.

 

[GMillie]

I'm not disagreeing with you. What I'm disagreeing with is the notion that England created the industrial revolution, and how easily the English make these kind of claims.

I wouldn't dream of making those claims. I guess I need to revoke my membership of "The English".

 

[NecroAngel]

I agree that it should be called the British Empire (though many Scots are quick to say they had no part in it and cry about how evil the English were and are). However, at least it being called the English Empire has the benefit of annoying silly nationalists with a chip on their shoulder, obsessed with putting down other people and countries to make themselves feel better. Personally I'm proud of being British and being united with Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland.. I don't know why I encounter so many bitter Scots, it really is a shame how common these types are and they give Scottish people a bad name. I've heard plenty of stories about English people being refused service in pubs in Scotland and being beaten up simply because they're English, and people like Jimbo are the reason why that happens.

Jimbo, you're clearly extremely anti-English, insulting them and desperately downplaying their accomplishments at every turn for no reason, even admitting to being against the English because 'they' take credit for things they didn't create, basically sweeping 50 million people with the same brush. I often see Scottish people claiming to have invented things they didn't or had little role in, but I don't hold it against the millions of Scottish people as a whole as I'm not stupid.

Not sure why you keep going on about languages etc. Yes, English is a Germanic language (like many others, including Scots), and Scottish Gaelic is a Celtic language. So? It's irrelevant. English cuisine is in no way non-existent any more than Scottish cuisine is just because they also love curry (enough for dishes like tikka masala to be invented there), but again you're displaying cognitive dissonance because your xenophobia is blinding you, leaving you desperate to make a jab at those 'evil Englishmen.' But yeah, it is pretty awesome how much of a melting pot England is. I hope you can grow up and get over your pathetic xenophobia and be proud of your country without feeling the need to put others down some day.

 

[Watiggi]

The mongols were a raging horde of bandits and marauders. They definitely had a huge impact on world history, but their cultural and scientific impact was almost zero.

It is said that 1 in 200 men are directly descended from Genghis Khan http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gn...-genghis-khan/ because not only were the Mongols murderers and thieves, they were also notorious rapists.

Genghis Khan made Hitler look like Mickey Mouse. The guy was pure evil, as evil as they come.

I know.

It still does not mean they are civilized. They are a nomadic culture like the turks, the huns, and numerous other cultures. They are not really famous for extensive city building. That's just not their lifestyle.

Being a citizen myself i still don't consider them inferior to civilized lifestyle as i told earlier though. Just different.

First, there is more to the mongols than just the conquests. After the conquests came the ruling. Kublai Khan ruled a civilized empire for instance. Second, the Mongolian civilization still exists. In fact, they celebrated their 800th year a few years ago I believe.

If you think the Mongols are all about raping and murdering people then I think the Mongolian people currently alive might find that rather offensive, dont you?

It was apart of their past? Yes. But they are civilized now and their past had an undeniably massive impact on the world at one point that cannot be ignored.

 

[Trackman20]

Usa! Usa! Usa!

 

[AljayBoy]

Oh come on NecroAngel, don't you think you're laying it on a bit hard yourself there?

I mean, you've got your stories about people you've 'heard of' being refused to be served in a pub. I myself in my frequent trips down south mainly to London (but also visited Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle and Cardiff) stuggle to get served anywhere if I have the audacity to use scottish bank notes.

Lets not forget that the English can be as bigoted and Anti-Scottish as it can be in reverse.

With the difference in that its socially acceptable in the English media to bash the Scots i.e. former Sun newspaper editor Kelvin MacKenzie's numerous Anti Scottish comments or take Jeremy Paxman and his 'Scottish Raj' comments - both of which freely spouting there nasty views to the media at large. Feel free to google it and take a look for yourself.

But don't make the mistake I'm apologising for any Scottish bigotry, thats equally, in fact more embarrassing for myself, being a Scot.

/Sorry for the slight thread derail.

 

[Xyan]

I really wonder why Europe was never unified, despite having the Greeks, Romans, and 'English' dominating much of the world at different points in history.

I read somewhere that one reason why China was united at times im history but not Europe is because of terrain. Rivers and plains made transport and interactions between states more common in the east.

But I am of the opinion that the differences between the cultures of 2 nations in Europe is comparable to difference states in a large country like china or even the Indian subcontinent..

 

[viz]

You do realise this meant that the Scottish King took over the English crown, right? So in contrast to an earlier claim that Scots never made any foreign policy, straight away we can see that the Scottish King absorbed the English crown and immediately started creating foreign policy.

Lol, are you for real Jimbo? He was 1/2 Scottish, his dad was English and a great number of his relatives were not Scottish either.

May I suggest you read up about James I of England before you go blowing your nationalistic trumpet.

 

[Pangaea]

The British empire is the largest ever empire the world has seen and not in game( and I don't think including the English empire will keep all Scots happy). Secondly the Mongol empire was the largest land based empire ever and not included. But the real kill is that America is in ther correct me if I'm wrong but what empire has America ever had? Does Hawaii and Alaska count as an empire?

I'd say America is the biggest empire the world has ever seen. Not directly controlled as the British largely did, but arguably more powerful and wide-stretching than the Brits.

To not include England is odd though. But suppose it will come in an expansion at some point.

 

[Jimbo30]

I agree that it should be called the British Empire (though many Scots are quick to say they had no part in it and cry about how evil the English were and are). However, at least it being called the English Empire has the benefit of annoying silly nationalists with a chip on their shoulder, obsessed with putting down other people and countries to make themselves feel better. Personally I'm proud of being British and being united with Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland.. I don't know why I encounter so many bitter Scots, it really is a shame how common these types are and they give Scottish people a bad name. I've heard plenty of stories about English people being refused service in pubs in Scotland and being beaten up simply because they're English, and people like Jimbo are the reason why that happens.

Jimbo, you're clearly extremely anti-English, insulting them and desperately downplaying their accomplishments at every turn for no reason, even admitting to being against the English because 'they' take credit for things they didn't create, basically sweeping 50 million people with the same brush. I often see Scottish people claiming to have invented things they didn't or had little role in, but I don't hold it against the millions of Scottish people as a whole as I'm not stupid.

Not sure why you keep going on about languages etc. Yes, English is a Germanic language (like many others, including Scots), and Scottish Gaelic is a Celtic language. So? It's irrelevant. English cuisine is in no way non-existent any more than Scottish cuisine is just because they also love curry (enough for dishes like tikka masala to be invented there), but again you're displaying cognitive dissonance because your xenophobia is blinding you, leaving you desperate to make a jab at those 'evil Englishmen.' But yeah, it is pretty awesome how much of a melting pot England is. I hope you can grow up and get over your pathetic xenophobia and be proud of your country without feeling the need to put others down some day.

Like most of the rest of the English in this thread, you failed completely to get any point.

I'll give you a small hint, just go back to page 1 and see how many English idiots were queuing up to have a go at the OP.

Examples include

post 3

british empire = England

post 6

England is already in the game

WAY TO MISS THE POINT

post 20

Everybody knows that England, United Kingdom, Great Britain, British Empire whatever you want to call them are all the same in the sense that their capital is London and their motherland is England.

Now, you show me where I had a go at England before any of that otherwise you'll just be thrown in with the rest English talking garbage in this thread.

 

[craig123]

The level of in this thread is unreal. People claiming England and Britain are the same thing; people claiming England rules Scotland; people claiming England had no impact on the world. Even people saying Edinburgh is an English city in civ5! WTH? Some posts are clearly trolling to try and get a reaction ("Hey, England. Scotland hates you" or "Hey, Scotland. How does it feel to be ruled by England"). Don't let reality get in the way of your arguments...

 

[mv10]

Feel free to tell us differently. I don't see any great English culture anywhere, show me what I'm missing?

Erm, lets see: Shakespeare for starters along with English literature on the whole; Football, Cricket, Rugby (most of the world plays some sort of english sport); the english language (probably the most important language to know today); music in recent times (such as beatles, rolling stones, the spice girls and alot of predominantly english electronic music like Jungle); the world's time zones revolve around Greenwich Mean Time; arguably North American and Australian culture is based on English culture; our legal system is the basis for many commonwealth countries and old colonies; the Anglican church; as well as numerous advances in science, economics and philosophy.

Thats just off the top of my head.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

Shakespeare I'll give, but that's just one man.

The industrial revolution was mostly down to the steam engine, courtesy of a certain Scotsman, James Watt. This is the #1 issue I have with the English, claiming credit for stuff you didn't do.

Industrial revolution is not just about the steam engine. If you want to go into scientific history, there are tonnes of English scientists whose works are pivotal to the development of modern science. To name a few: Newton, Alan Turing, Rosy Franklin, John Randall, Linus Pauling...

Similarly, the Shakespearean era's not just about Shakespeare. It's a golden era of literature resulted from the works of many with Shakespeare being the chief amongst them.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

Erm, lets see: Shakespeare for starters along with English literature on the whole; Football, Cricket, Rugby (most of the world plays some sort of english sport); the english language (probably the most important language to know today); music in recent times (such as beatles, rolling stones, the spice girls and alot of predominantly english electronic music like Jungle); the world's time zones revolve around Greenwich Mean Time; arguably North American and Australian culture is based on English culture; our legal system is the basis for many commonwealth countries and old colonies; the Anglican church; as well as numerous advances in science, economics and philosophy.

Thats just off the top of my head.

For many of us, the English culture is like the air around us - It exists, but we can be so used to it that we don't give it a second thought. Hence, the misguided rantings of our poor Scottish friend here.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

I read somewhere that one reason why China was united at times im history but not Europe is because of terrain. Rivers and plains made transport and interactions between states more common in the east.

But I am of the opinion that the differences between the cultures of 2 nations in Europe is comparable to difference states in a large country like china or even the Indian subcontinent..

I agreed. The Chinese had established a very strong racial/cultural connections with each other since the early times of recorded history. As a result, even when fragmented during civil war, there's a strong motive to achieve manifest destiny over China.

 

[juxtapose519]

Haha, I think it's amazing that this topic has gone on for so long.

I understand what all the fuss is about: England != Britan. Who cares? Pretty much every empire on the list has gone through some kind of change that would warrant separating them into two or more different civilizations if we were truly being historically accurate.

The "Arab" and "Chinese" empires alone could easily be split into DOZENS of different lineages and time periods, and none of them would be truly related beyond vague cultural and ethnic origins. For the sake of simplicity and diversity in the game, it's much easier to just lump them all together and slap a single title on them.

I think it's implied that although it's explicitly named the "English" empire, that the "British" empire is a natural progression and evolution of that same entity.

Therefore: Get over it.

 

[gingerbill]

british empire = England

its like they would call Persia for Iran nobody would care its the same !

Moderator Action: Inappropriate Language
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

some people are so uneducated its scary. I think its stupid calling the british empire 'england' . And pretty insulting . Why not just pick silly names out a hat if you aint going to use the correct one's? No idea why they decided this.