The years go by - is any idea for a community Civ3-clone utterly dead? :)

I've been a longtime lurker on the forums, and I'd love to help with a project to revive civ III for future generations. I don't think that an exact clone is the best way to go necessarily, there should probably be some fundamental game play changes (looking at you, corruption). I have pretty extensive programming experience, but only in java, so I don't know how much immediate help I could be, but if there is any concerted effort to bring back the best of civ, I'd like to join that.
 
Some more thoughts in regards to rebuilding civ:

Gameplay:
Part I, Combat/Movement

1. Hexes vs Squares vs Others
The typical reasoning for hexes is that they preserve distances the way grids do not. However, this is easily mitigated by using slightly more diverse tile movement values, 3 for diagonals, 2 for edges. This also invites us to kill the bird of combat mechanics with the same stone. In regards to other methods, they are needlessly complex and most likely not trivially codable or provided with game libraries. I’ve never had a case in playing civ III or IV of thinking “I needed the benefits (?) of hex tiles”. Hexagonal tiles have the negatives of fewer options with no creative ways of overcoming that issue.

2. 1 Unit Per tile
NO. One of the worst choices of the later civ games was the movement to a strategically restrictive (see, hexes -_-) combat system. However, there are issues with the stack of doom that ought to be mitigated. Large army concentrations always have outriders and over time, these armies spread out. (See, Napoleons march into Russia)
The solution could be through maintenance. Stacks larger than some size (not fixed, would modulate with the govt type, number of barracks, granaries, roads connecting to the army, a nation has) would suffer maintenance, which could be counteracted by spreading the stack out on some large area (the equivalent of pillaging and living off the land). Again, in historical terms, compare Sherman’s March to the sea and the Army of the Potomac, visualizing them in civ. Army of the Potomac would be one tile, eating quite a bit of maintenance, while sherman’s Army would be a 2-3 tiles spread out stack, eating less maintenance.
Maintenance considerations such as these would be extremely tricky to work out with the AI, but in pure gameplay terms it is a viable solution.

3. Unit movement
With the possibility of adding larger map sizes than previously, redesigning combat movement would be very important. I imagine this type of set up: two game settings, classical grid (1 movement for edges and verticies) and new grid (2 for edges, 3 for vertices). In the latter mode, later era units would have slowly increasing numbers of movement points, giving them advantages over predecessors. Lower damage skirmisher units would have high movement rates early on.

For example:
Spearman 2 movement, chariot 3, swordsman 3 (with some lower defense value than spearmen), horse archers 6 movement, regular cavalry 5.
I would suggest similar but more gradual movement increments in the regular version.

4. Combat itself
There are three factors to consider when discussing combat: the type of odds mechanic (ADM or strength), the type of damage mechanic (full or partial like in ciV) and the impact of modifiers.

ADM is perhaps too limiting and prevents units from fulfilling multiple roles (or makes it too easy for them to fulfill every role as in the case of medieval infantry). Strength is a better mechanic to build combat on. In terms of the amount of damage a unit suffers, I believe that units SHOULD be destroyed much more often than not, but withdraw chances should exist, including all fortified defending units.

Finally, modifiers should be very prevalent as they were in civ iv, including both the concepts of promotions and various terrain values, however they would benefit from a redesign. Instead of having units tend extremely heavily towards a specific role, promotions should allow for greater versatility. Alexander the Great's pikemen and medieval copies had the same underlying principle, yet different combat roles (front of an attacking army moving in a phalanx vs. defensive crux of an army around which more dominant troop types could organize). In game terms, a pikeman would come with an earlier tech and a moderate bonus against cavalry.

These considerations yield an approximate promotion flowchart:
upload_2018-4-11_17-10-13.png


In their most basic form, units would all have some slight inbuilt promotions or leanings towards one of the categories, but other paths could be chosen by situation.
ADM would be reflected in the basic defensive/offensive promotions which would provide greater benefits than something like combat in civ 4. The one type of promotion unaddressed is that of siege units. I propose that siege units are capturable 0 strength units with a collateral damage capability, albeit reduced from the one in civ iv, mixing the best of both worlds.

However, the ADM system might just be easier to implement, and as long as unit choices are diverse and balanced, the system will hold, so take everything I just said with a tablespoon of salt.

I might expand on other parts of my thoughts on designing a new civ game later, but here's an outline of my considerations.
Part 2, Terrain and resources, Workers, Improvements, Settlers
1. Terrain should be diverse and pretty but not cartoonish.
2. Resources should be numerous in type, connect by roading them. Consider not increasing # of improvements as heavily as civ 4 did after 3 - no need for mines AND quarries, no need for separate wineries, no need for work boats, but keep cottages, windmills, watermills, lumbermills (improvements that introduce actual choice rather than being flavour). Yields from certain resources should change with different techs, the yield change should be randomly distributed in every game? Makes tech tree more exciting. Make forts more interesting than in previous versions.

upload_2018-4-11_17-41-49.png

Basically, there should be more choice than this picture.

3. More customizable settlers? Settler differences as tech tree progresses?
4. Keep the -1 pop worker, -2 pop settler.

Part 3, Economics
1. Limiting factor (what prevents empire bloat) - city maintenance in gold + stack cost + outlying unit cost. Only some few buildings should cost maintenance
2. Overflow should exist, that kind of micromanagement is NOT fun.
3. Roads should give +1 commerce
4. Things from later versions: specialists should be considered, but no corporations, or anything from the later versions of the game.
5. Automatic trade routes between connected cities are an interesting economic alternative that could be considered.

One of the flaws in civ 3 is the lack of economic variety and blind focus on REx, so adding civ 4 mechanics of specialist economy, trade route economy, and other ways empires can function besides building massive amounts of roads would be critical.

Part 4, Diplomacy
1. Religion should be a factor in the game, but not a simple +/-. Instead, having different religions should make contact with different civilizations more difficult to simulate cultural divide. (Number of turns would be a function of the number of cities with shared religions).
2. Keep diplomacy relatively open as in civ 3

Part 5, Espionage - Literally keep it the way it was in civ 3 in terms of capabilities and interface.

Palace - There HAS to be a palace view, it was why civ 3 was superior. Also the little warrior with the hammer and the rankings and whatnot was cool.
 
@lnexist - An interesting post, and I want to call out the stack maintenance in particular as an idea I had not seen before, but which offers an interesting solution to the conundrum of stacks of doom. I also disdain the one-unit-per-tile solution of Civ5, but can see the criticism of SODs. The traditional solution I've seen is some aspect of attrition, which does make logistical sense, but maintenance penalties for stacks over a certain size are an intriguing idea that would still incentivize spreading out a little bit, while not being so brutal as 1UPT. It's also much more configurable than 1UPT - a mod maker could easily increase or decrease the standard penalty (in maintenance, or in threshold for the maintenance penalty) as is suited for what they are modeling.

If I'm doing it my way it will be written in C#, which is about 80% Java without the rough edges. An experienced Java programmer should be able to write game logic without much trouble. I know we have a few of those around. Is anyone else interested?

Potentially. I should note that I've started another, non-Civ-related, side project that is likely to be my first priority in side projects for this year (it's already providing some practical benefits to me in the real world). And in the ideal case, I might try to parley it into something more than a side project. So I don't have the bandwidth or motivation to lead such a project. But I could see myself potentially being interested enough to contribute in things such as programming certain modules - reading in certain data, AI handling certain tasks, implementing gameplay logic such as determining if resources are connected, or combat mechanics. And as you say, it's generally pretty easy to adopt to C# from Java. To be sure, it's been over 5 years since I wrote any significant amount of C# - and perhaps notably, my Visual Studio version is 2010 - but the main problems I recall from the last time I dove into C# from Java were related to remembering what the C# terms for Java concepts were, not any fundamentally different concepts. And I'm already switching between Java, Ruby, JavaScript, and occasionally Groovy at work - what's one more language?

(For anyone who uses my editor - yes, the new side project is distracting me from that. All the same, I don't intend for a (functional) Windows 95 version for April Fool's Day to be my last update to it. But posts describing how you'd make use of potential enhancements would serve a good motivational purpose in encouraging me to spare some time from my new project to further enhance the editor)
 
Some more thoughts in regards to rebuilding civ:

Gameplay:
Part I, Combat/Movement

1. Hexes vs Squares vs Others
The typical reasoning for hexes is that they preserve distances the way grids do not. However, this is easily mitigated by using slightly more diverse tile movement values, 3 for diagonals, 2 for edges. This also invites us to kill the bird of combat mechanics with the same stone. In regards to other methods, they are needlessly complex and most likely not trivially codable or provided with game libraries. I’ve never had a case in playing civ III or IV of thinking “I needed the benefits (?) of hex tiles”. Hexagonal tiles have the negatives of fewer options with no creative ways of overcoming that issue.

2. 1 Unit Per tile
NO. One of the worst choices of the later civ games was the movement to a strategically restrictive (see, hexes -_-) combat system. However, there are issues with the stack of doom that ought to be mitigated. Large army concentrations always have outriders and over time, these armies spread out. (See, Napoleons march into Russia)
The solution could be through maintenance. Stacks larger than some size (not fixed, would modulate with the govt type, number of barracks, granaries, roads connecting to the army, a nation has) would suffer maintenance, which could be counteracted by spreading the stack out on some large area (the equivalent of pillaging and living off the land). Again, in historical terms, compare Sherman’s March to the sea and the Army of the Potomac, visualizing them in civ. Army of the Potomac would be one tile, eating quite a bit of maintenance, while sherman’s Army would be a 2-3 tiles spread out stack, eating less maintenance.
Maintenance considerations such as these would be extremely tricky to work out with the AI, but in pure gameplay terms it is a viable solution.

3. Unit movement
With the possibility of adding larger map sizes than previously, redesigning combat movement would be very important. I imagine this type of set up: two game settings, classical grid (1 movement for edges and verticies) and new grid (2 for edges, 3 for vertices). In the latter mode, later era units would have slowly increasing numbers of movement points, giving them advantages over predecessors. Lower damage skirmisher units would have high movement rates early on.

For example:
Spearman 2 movement, chariot 3, swordsman 3 (with some lower defense value than spearmen), horse archers 6 movement, regular cavalry 5.
I would suggest similar but more gradual movement increments in the regular version.

4. Combat itself
There are three factors to consider when discussing combat: the type of odds mechanic (ADM or strength), the type of damage mechanic (full or partial like in ciV) and the impact of modifiers.

ADM is perhaps too limiting and prevents units from fulfilling multiple roles (or makes it too easy for them to fulfill every role as in the case of medieval infantry). Strength is a better mechanic to build combat on. In terms of the amount of damage a unit suffers, I believe that units SHOULD be destroyed much more often than not, but withdraw chances should exist, including all fortified defending units.

Finally, modifiers should be very prevalent as they were in civ iv, including both the concepts of promotions and various terrain values, however they would benefit from a redesign. Instead of having units tend extremely heavily towards a specific role, promotions should allow for greater versatility. Alexander the Great's pikemen and medieval copies had the same underlying principle, yet different combat roles (front of an attacking army moving in a phalanx vs. defensive crux of an army around which more dominant troop types could organize). In game terms, a pikeman would come with an earlier tech and a moderate bonus against cavalry.

These considerations yield an approximate promotion flowchart:
View attachment 493212

In their most basic form, units would all have some slight inbuilt promotions or leanings towards one of the categories, but other paths could be chosen by situation.
ADM would be reflected in the basic defensive/offensive promotions which would provide greater benefits than something like combat in civ 4. The one type of promotion unaddressed is that of siege units. I propose that siege units are capturable 0 strength units with a collateral damage capability, albeit reduced from the one in civ iv, mixing the best of both worlds.

However, the ADM system might just be easier to implement, and as long as unit choices are diverse and balanced, the system will hold, so take everything I just said with a tablespoon of salt.

I might expand on other parts of my thoughts on designing a new civ game later, but here's an outline of my considerations.
Part 2, Terrain and resources, Workers, Improvements, Settlers
1. Terrain should be diverse and pretty but not cartoonish.
2. Resources should be numerous in type, connect by roading them. Consider not increasing # of improvements as heavily as civ 4 did after 3 - no need for mines AND quarries, no need for separate wineries, no need for work boats, but keep cottages, windmills, watermills, lumbermills (improvements that introduce actual choice rather than being flavour). Yields from certain resources should change with different techs, the yield change should be randomly distributed in every game? Makes tech tree more exciting. Make forts more interesting than in previous versions.

View attachment 493213
Basically, there should be more choice than this picture.

3. More customizable settlers? Settler differences as tech tree progresses?
4. Keep the -1 pop worker, -2 pop settler.

Part 3, Economics
1. Limiting factor (what prevents empire bloat) - city maintenance in gold + stack cost + outlying unit cost. Only some few buildings should cost maintenance
2. Overflow should exist, that kind of micromanagement is NOT fun.
3. Roads should give +1 commerce
4. Things from later versions: specialists should be considered, but no corporations, or anything from the later versions of the game.
5. Automatic trade routes between connected cities are an interesting economic alternative that could be considered.

One of the flaws in civ 3 is the lack of economic variety and blind focus on REx, so adding civ 4 mechanics of specialist economy, trade route economy, and other ways empires can function besides building massive amounts of roads would be critical.

Part 4, Diplomacy
1. Religion should be a factor in the game, but not a simple +/-. Instead, having different religions should make contact with different civilizations more difficult to simulate cultural divide. (Number of turns would be a function of the number of cities with shared religions).
2. Keep diplomacy relatively open as in civ 3

Part 5, Espionage - Literally keep it the way it was in civ 3 in terms of capabilities and interface.

Palace - There HAS to be a palace view, it was why civ 3 was superior. Also the little warrior with the hammer and the rankings and whatnot was cool.

I quite like your thoughts, though the strength system is not one ive delved into deeply, because I held back from playing IV and V and played little. I see the limitations with ADM, but I like it. Would it not be good just to add some bonuses vs certain unit types, but keep ADM?

I think it would be good to have some more variety in the expansion vs economy. That is one thing that I like and do not like in civ3. There just has to be a choice involved, and not have it heavily forced upon you to limit expansion. So some weighing up of pros and cons is needed.

Perhaps certain parts of diplomacy could be locked out due to different religion?

I disagree with Espionage somewhat, though you may not mean keep it entirely the same. I almost never use Espionage for what it is intended for, and that should change to be more useful. The interface, sure why not. I like the interface of civ3 for the most part.
 
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I quite like your thoughts, though the strength system is not one ive delved into deeply, because I held back from playing IV and V and played little. I see the limitations with ADM, but I like it. Would it not be good just to add some bonuses vs certain unit types, but keep ADM?

I think it would be good to have some more variety in the expansion vs economy. That is one thing that I like and do not like in civ3. There just has to be a choice involved, and not have it heavily forced upon you to limit expansion. So some weighing up of pros and cons is needed.

Perhaps certain parts of diplomacy could be locked out due to different religion?

I disagree with Espionage somewhat, though you may not mean keep it entirely the same. I almost never use Espionage for what it is intended for, and that should change to be more useful. The interface, sure why not. I like the interface of civ3 for the most part.

Yes, for espionage not entirely same but keep the basic mechanic of planting a spy and buying actions for gold. The actions themselves are up for determination.

In terms of combat with ADM vs Strength I’m really conflicted. There’s also the matter of hitpoints and whether to use them or integrate into strength. I think the best question for thought is - how to prevent spearmen from defeating damaged tanks, yet keeping the ability for very unexpected results to occur? I think for sure there should be greater terrain differentials.
 
/subscribe

I can't believe I've missed out on this thread for… almost four months.
I take it you're using Windows to work on this, so it might be worth trying out on WINE… I might be jumping ahead by a fair distance, but you could make it be one single cross-platform installation as many games hosted at itch.io are. One single folder structure that works for Windows, Mac and Linux, comes with a separate launcher file for each and the rest remains the same.
 
The people over at the Civ2 forum (Scenario league, here in CFC) devised a way to use Lua so as to allow for multiple-choice events in Civ2.


Meanwhile... CivIII doesn't even have an event file :shake: ;)

Although immensely impressive, I still think that a new engine and civ built from scratch is the way to go simply due to the amount of design shifts that ought to be made, the need for decent 2.5D graphics (something at minimum along the lines of high-end civ iii terrain packs), as well as the ever-diminishing playerbase of the old games, and the amount of work that needs to be done with decades of fiddling in order to implement new features.

Sadly, someone would need to take charge of such a project and pretty much no one has both the skill and the ability to commit. However, in terms of designing the game, interface, etc. I would probably be able to come up with an extremely detailed plan (layouts of every screen, description of features, units, calculations, etc.) in a months time or so.
 
Inexist, what would the difference between 2D graphics and 2.5D graphics be?
 
btw if you want a new engine… I suggest taking a look at the Battle for Wesnoth engine. It's a turn-based tactics rather than turn-based strategy but it might be worth taking a look at. And it's free software even if it's about to go on Steam so you can poke around and even develop a fork (you probably won't because it has no city screens and very little in the way of resources/production, but still).
 
I take it you're using Windows to work on this, so it might be worth trying out on WINE… I might be jumping ahead by a fair distance, but you could make it be one single cross-platform installation as many games hosted at itch.io are. One single folder structure that works for Windows, Mac and Linux, comes with a separate launcher file for each and the rest remains the same.

If multi-platform capability is important you might think about the App Game Kit too.
 
I think you're all trying to design a toaster from the point of view of the toast. What you need first is to host a website that would allow Civ III gamers to play scenarios and mods in multiplayer mode. The capability to do that is already built into the game, you'd just have to access it, and find a way to interface with it. Hell, if you could get that far, Thunderfall might be persuaded to host it here. Players would have to already have the compatible Civ III files installed on their own computers, but I see no reason why new scenarios couldn't be stored on the website, accessible through the interface (and all without stepping on Fireaxis' copyright).

Then you could, using biq editing capabilty we already have, build into the website the capability to switch out graphics, etc for each individual game. Modders could submit new graphics, units, tech configurations, etc., which would become available as 'options' on a menu screen that could allow for 'default' or 'custom' stats. There's no reason that it couldn't be configured to edit custom text files automatically.

Then work on a method to iron out gameplay bugs, or add gamplay capabilities not available by other means. If that means building a new game engine, so be it, but you'd at least have a web platform ready made to test and distribute it.
 
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Can't both be done concurrently, Balthasar?
 
Hm, i don't think Balt is right there. Besides, there is no money in that :D

(last part is a joke; there isn't any money in this either, more than likely. But it makes no sense to script for a server instead of scripting for your own game. Also, it is very unlikely to get people interested if you have to use a web server to play even when alone. Last but not least, most people who offered scripting don't seem to be into server scripting).

Maybe concurrently with other stuff, @Quintillus could have a look at the Lua use by the Civ2 people in CFC? :) (see post #90 in this thread)
 
Just a quick note on the stacks of doom problem. In Freeciv, the default rules are set so that if a SOD is attacked and the defending unit dies then the entire stack is destroyed. Forts and cities protect stacks from being destroyed however and only the defending units dies as per normal civ rules. I kind of like this but it makes attacking cities very difficult. It doesn't feel very realistic though when a huge SOD is destroyed by a single unit.
 
Just a quick note on the stacks of doom problem. In Freeciv, the default rules are set so that if a SOD is attacked and the defending unit dies then the entire stack is destroyed. Forts and cities protect stacks from being destroyed however and only the defending units dies as per normal civ rules. I kind of like this but it makes attacking cities very difficult. It doesn't feel very realistic though when a huge SOD is destroyed by a single unit.

That's a terribly unrealistic, poorly designed element of gameplay...
 
Isn't that how Civ2 worked? Freeciv is basically a Civ2 clone.

Now it's still not clear to me what has happened with Civ2 and Lua scripting. Where did this Lua API come from? Did someone actually hack the game to inject Lua execution and exploit that for modding? Or was the language support always there and it's just now been exposed? Or... ?

@Takhisis Unity's big selling point is that you can develop once and deploy natively to almost any platform. I'm working in Linux, but I can make a Windows exe or WebGL app with a few clicks.

@Balthasar That's a really interesting concept, but if I understand you correctly it seems that would mean just as much effort in the long run if not more than making a new game. Are you suggesting that the hosting website would become the medium by which people play, as their local files are loaded into the web application and processed server-side? So at some point the game mechanics would be reimplemented on the web platform instead of running on their local copy of the game?
 
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