The Young Turks--Precursor to the Arab Spring?

[Lord Baal]

I'd suggest at this point that we all just ignore this post by mghani. In fact, I'd suggest we all just completely ignore this thread, and likely any future threads.

It's obvious that he's not interested in an actual discussion, but rather in 'enlightening' (ie. forcing us to convert to his viewpoint, despite any actual evidence for his viewpoint) us, and therefore is not worth attempting discussion with. Also, his rudeness and pitiful histrionics are nothing but blatant trolling in an attempt to incense the debators, thus making them look aggressive and claiming the moral high ground for himself.

Stop feeding the troll, and eventually - hopefully very shortly - he will wither and die. And we can go back to actual discussions, rather than this crap.

Moderator Action: Infracted for trolling - do not call other people trolls, please.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[r16]

not saying anything against for this side or the other and simply keeping to examining the Middle Eastern mindset , Tevfik Fikret ends up regularly used to lambast the modernization attemps , he had a son Haluk he sent over to US to become an electrical engineer ( you know to give light/enlightenment to people , the word is the same in Turkish ) and he converted to become a priest in , ı believe , a Protestant denomination . Right wing always brings it up to mention it was in their "blood" .

 

[mghani]

Now i believe would be a good a time as ever to restate, expand where necessay, and roundup my original thesis:

Part 1

The Young Turk Revolution at the beginning of the last century bears very close parallels to the engineered Arab Spring of Today. In both cases we had a desire for democracy under despotic or semi-despotic regimes being coopted by Western Imperialist forces inorder to achieve their own grand geopolitical schemes and objectives.

In the case of the Young Turk Revolution, the western Imperialist forces were represented by the British with the French as a junior partner to their cause. The goal was to achieve a New Roman empire ruled by the British. The strength of this empire would have been based on the possession of oil resources in SouthWest Asia (aka Middle east) which would have fuelled the nascent or emerging petroleum technology which the british meant to base their legendary Navy on. The second part to this plan was the destruction of their rivals. These rivals would have been the Russians and the Germans and ofcourse the Ottoman Empire itself.

The plans of Great Britain to secure South West Asian oil resources were threatened by the Berlin Baghdad Railway being constructed during the reign of the very Pro-German and anti-British sultan Abdul-Hamid. This railway had the potential to strengthen even more the industrial and military might of Germany. Germany was a land based power, and its remarkable economic and cultural renaissance at the time was based not on sea trade to overseas territories such as the british and French had, but thorugh massive investments in real industry and technology such as steel production. The Berlin-Baghdad railway would have threatened the british supply of oil from territories such as Persia and vassal semi-autonomous states like Kuwait ( which remains a vassal to this day) while at the same time making the deployment of German or even ottoman military against british Interest in the far east, especially India much easier. In regards to India the British were especially paranoid. However they feared th Russians more than they feared the Germans in that regard.

There was one pooint in history when world war 1 seemed like something politically impossible. This was due to the diplomatic genius of the German Chancellor, Bismarck. Webster Tarpley puts it better than I ever could:

The guy who superintended the creation of united Germany was, of course, Bismarck. He’s a mixed figure: part monster, part realpolitiker. Bismarck as a realpolitiker, was a great realist. He knew that there could be no general war in Europe, as long as Germany and Russia maintained good relations. This picture you see up here is the alliance system created by Bismarck. And you can see the result of it is, that Germany has plenty of allies; France has none; France cannot start any wars–these pro-British governments in Paris–and the British are forced to stay off the continent of Europe pretty much. And in particular I would stress the good relations between Berlin and St. Petersburg, between Germany and Russia, first under the so-called alliance of the Three Emperors–Dreikaiserbund–and then the so-called Reinsurance Treaty.

With Bismarck forced out of power, relations between Germany and the rival central powers broke down. The British use this to their advantage by creating the Triple Entente an alliance of the British, French and Russians. The germans were left alone with Austria -hungary as an ally; and with such an ally one hardly requires any enemies. But nonetheless, though the British may have been comfortable with the French, they were still afraid of the Russians. Their plan was to allow Germany and Russia to destroy eachother in a grand war. They employed spies for that purpose, the most prominent and intriguing of which was Vambrey, quite appropriately believed to be the inspiration for Bram Stoker's Van Helsing, as he was a double Agent for both the Ottomans and the British, in the same way that Van Helsing was part human part creature. This is what Wikipedia has to say about Vambery:

In 2005 the National Archives at Kew, Surrey, made files accessible to the public, and it was revealed that Vámbéry had been employed by the British Foreign Office as an agent and spy whose task it was to combat Russian attempts at gaining ground in Central Asia and threatening the British position on the Indian sub-continent.

So even with Russia as an ally the British continued to worry about that threat. Armin Vambery has been pointed out by some as the one responsible for the creation of the idea of Pan-Turkism, which meant a Turkish state encompassing all ethnic turks. This would be quite consistent with his role as a British spy against Russian interests. Vambery came up with the idea while working for the sultan Abdulhamid, the idea was taken at heart by the Young Turks after the revolution. This idea was quite dangerous to the Russians as their own empire included large populations of turks. in a matter of fact it could safely be said that a Young Turk such as Enver Pasha died effectively as a deluded Kamikaze British puppet fighting against the Russians for the possession of Russian lands occupied by Ethnic Turks. Others like Talaat Pasha, after being used so shabbily by the British were literally hounded and hunted down by that same British intelligence.

But taking a look at the Versailles peace treaty give us a better idea of British Geopolitical strategy. The treaty ended with the dismemberment of the russian empire; land that had been part of Russia became Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, East Prussia, and Poland. And ofcourse the Germans were destroyed thus:

Germany, under the Treaty of Versailles, was required to pay $32 billion of reparations. It was said that the Germans bore the war guilt; that they were responsible for World War I. Big lie! But the reason for the big lie, was that they had to pay $32 billion–it’s hard to calculate that in today’s terms. Those were gold dollars, those were real dollars, maybe $32 trillion is some idea of what that would have meant today, and because of the 5 percent interest rates, this was going to be paid over about 60-70 years. By one calculation, the Germans would have wound up their payments about 1990.

This was the ultimate goal of the British. To destroy their most dangerous rival powers--Germany and Russia. This they did more effectively with Germany, ofcourse, by eliminating the source of their strength which was their industrial economy. The Young Turk Revolution and its destabilizing strand of British engineered Pan-Turkism which led to accelerated ethnic tensions among the different nationalities which made up the empire ultimately led to world war I. I believe it was Bismarck himself who prohesied :

One day the great European War will come out of some damned foolish thing in the Balkans

The British engineered that damned foolish thing through coopting and manipulating the Young Turk Revolution. This coopting was based on the principle of divide and conquer; stirring up ethnic nationalism within rival empires to sow organized chaos and anarchy which the British position themselves to take full advantage of. The clearest example of this is the work of another British agent Lawrence of Arabia, who manipulated Arab nationalism to split S W Asia from the Ottoman Empire; the Arab nationalists ofcourse later had to be subjected to the British-French colonial yoke.

 

[mghani]

Part 2

The manipulation of the young Turks by perfidious Albion has parallels with the way in which the British dealt with their mainland European counterparts. This manipulation was personified in King Edward VII and his protege Edward Grey, the British Foreign Secretary. They were the ones who pulled off the brilliant feat of reversing everything that Bismarck had accomplished through the unlikely triple Entente of Britain, Russia and France. For instance the unstable kaiser of Germany was made to believe up to the last minute before war broke out that the British would never join on the side of the French or the Russians. Here he is sounding like a hero of Shakesperean tragedy who are so skilled in realizing their follies only when its just too late to avert disaster:

England, Russia, and France have agreed among themselves… after laying the foundation of the casus foederis for us through Austria… to take the Austro-Serbian conflict for an excuse for waging a war of extermination against us…. That is the real naked situation slowly and cleverly set going by Edward VII and… finally brought to a conclusion by George V…. So the famous encirclement of Germany has finally become a fact, despite every effort of our politicians and diplomats to prevent it. The net has been suddenly thrown over our head, and England sneeringly reaps the most brilliant success of her persistently prosecuted anti-German world policy against which we have proved ourselves helpless, while she twists the noose of our political and economic destruction out of our fidelity to Austria, as we squirm isolated in the net. A great achievement, which arouses the admiration even of him who is to be destroyed as its result! Edward VII is stronger after his death than am I who am still alive! And there have been people who believed that England could be won over or pacified, by this or that puny measure!!!”

This from a man who ousted the great diplomatic genius, Bismarck for reasons of petty jealousy. He was not the only German though who felt manipulated by British Geopolitical genius. Here is Leipziger Neuste Nachrichten, after the death of Edward VII, May 1910:

For long years, King Edward wove, with masterly skill, the Nessus robe that was to destroy the German Hercules.

And it was not just the Germans who suffered as pointed out before. The French and the Russians suppossed allies of the British also had their economies devastated and were in a much weaker position than Great Britain after the Versailles Treaty.

Today this British Imperialist dominance has metaphorsed into an Anglo-american alliance, with the British playing a somewhat junior role to American domintion in a way similar to France during the years prior to world war I. This Anglo-American dominance cannot hope to be based on economic might. The Chinese and the indians are right now graduating more young people out of universities both in terms of percentage and actual numbers than the Americans are. Also in regards to China, it is only a matter of time their economy surpasses that of the US. The American economy is a hollowed out econmy which manufactures almost nothing, with all its industry outsourced to China and Mexico and other Asian countries. The only thing that America and the UK is left with is the wizardry of their financial markets in London and NewYork. A system of finance based on usury and debt and speculation and toxic derivatives. These Financial markets are on the verge of collapse.

So just like Britain faced with the German industrial and military threat at the beginning of the last century, the Anglo-Americans have resorted to divide and conquer, a kind of organised chaos and anarchy, more commmonly referred to as creative destruction. This creative destruction has taken the form of reliance on superior miltary capabilities, an echo of Britain's Naval dominance of before. ( in the case of Britain it was called Gun-Boat diplomacy, in the case of the US it is more appropriately called missile diplomacy). An ally of this military dominace is Islamic radicalism, often portrayed by the corporate media as the greatest threat to Western Civilization. this characterization is ofcourse a farce.

One of the earliest example we have of American and British intelligence using Islamic radicalism as a tool is with their oppossition to the Nationalist regime of the Egyptian Leader Nasser:

In 1954, Egyptian President Gamal Abddul Nasser’s nationalist policies in Egypt come to be viewed as completely unacceptable by Britain and the US. MI6 and the CIA jointly hatch plans for his assassination. According to Miles Copeland, a CIA operative based in Egypt, the opposition to Nasser is driven by the commercial community—the oil companies and the banks. At the same time, the Muslim Brotherhood’s resentment of Nasser’s secular government also comes to a head. In one incident, Islamist militants attack pro-Nasser students at Cairo University. Following an attempt on his own life by the Brotherhood, Nasser responds immediately by outlawing the group, which he denounces as a tool of Britain. The following years see a long and complex struggle pitting Nasser against the Muslim Brotherhood, the US, and Britain. The CIA funnels support to the Muslim Brotherhood because of “the Brotherhood’s commendable capability to overthrow Nasser.” [Baer, 2003, pp. 99; Dreyfuss, 2005, pp. 101-108] The Islamist regime in Saudi Arabia becomes an ally of the United States in the conflict with Nasser. They offer financial backing and sanctuary to Muslim Brotherhood militants during Nasser’s crackdown. Nasser dies of natural causes in 1970. [Dreyfuss, 2005, pp. 90-91, 126-131, 150]

Islamic Britherhood and the CIA

The extract above I suppose can be interpreted as a less successful model of what the M16 and CIA carried out against Qadaffi in Libya. In the case of Libya it was Alqaeda personified by Abdel Hakim Belhaj, who is now military governor of Tripoli. It was Nato who provided him with his own personal airforce to achieve such a goal. It was M16 and the CIA, which provided him with all the logistics necessary to achive such a feat. the only difference in Egypt under nasser was the desperation. In the case of Libya an all out barabaric war was levelled against Libya; but with Nasser he was lucky enough to have the backing of rival world powers such as Soviet Russia, which was able to tone down the western response.

The Ultimate goal of the Anglo-American geopolitical strategy is the elimination or rival powers. With the rise of China and Russia they have become even more paranoid. Libya which was so effectively brutalized was leaning closer and closer to the Chinese and Russians. Syria which is now the current target of these demoniacal schemes is home to a Russian Naval base. It can be fairly said that Russia and China are the ones standing between Assad and the slavering Anglo-American warmongers who yearn for his flesh. And just as in the case of Naser's Egypt or Gadaffi's Libya, the usual suspects come into play. Islamic nuts hired and contracted by western intelligence or the puppets of Western intelligence such as Mossad of israel and Saudi or Turkish intelligence being used to unleash a reign of terror on a civilian poulation. Death Squads engaged in acts of blind terrorism assasinating just about anyone, with the Western media quick to blame it on Assad, and using this as pretext for humanitarian intervention.


Michel Chossudovsky puts it quite well:

NATO and the Turkish High command, also contemplate the development of a jihad involving the recruitment of thousands of "freedom fighters", reminiscent of the enlistment of Mujahideen to wage the CIA's jihad (holy war) in the heyday of the Soviet-Afghan war:

Also discussed in Brussels and Ankara, our sources report, is a campaign to enlist thousands of Muslim volunteers in Middle East countries and the Muslim world to fight alongside the Syrian rebels. The Turkish army would house these volunteers, train them and secure their passage into Syria. (Ibid, emphasis added)

This recruitment of Mujahideen to fight NATO's humanitarian wars (including Libay and Syria) is well underway. Some 1500 jihadists from Afghanistan trained by the CIA were dispatched to fight with the "pro-democracy" rebels under the helm of "former" Libya Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG) Commander Abdel Hakim Belhadj:

“Most of the men have been recruited from Afghanistan. They are Uzbeks, Persians and Hazaras. According to the footage, these men attired in the Uzbek-style of shalwar and Hazara-Uzbek Kurta were found fighting in Libyan cities.” (The Nation, Pakistan,

The Libyan model of rebel forces integrated by the Islamic brigades together with NATO special forces is slated to be applied in Syria, where Islamist fighters supported by Western and Israeli intelligence have already been deployed.

Michel Chussodovsky

And also as with the Young Turk revolution we have this cynical and barbaric attempt to play the card of ethnic nationalism. In the the case of the young Turks this led to the Armenian genocide; in the case of Libya it led to the ethnic cleansing of blacks, especially in the by now famous or rather notorious town of Tawerga. The same is being done in Syria, a secular regime dominated by the Alawite minority sect, who for the sake of their own survival were prudent enough to promote ethnic and religious tolerance making it a society far more enlightend than backward countries such as Saudi Arabia , where women are not allowed to drive and moslems are not allowed to convert to other religions. The non-sunni minorities in this Sunni majority society, especially christians are horrified at what the Western interventionists and their minions have in store for them: Michel Chussodovsky again:

Syria is a secular state where Muslims and Christian have shared a common heritage from the early Christian period and have lived together for centuries.

Covert support is channelled to the jihadist fighters, who in turn are responsible for acts of sectarian violence directed against Alawite, Christians and Druze. In early May, as part of the anti-government "protest movement", armed gunmen were reported to have attacked Christian homes in Daraa in Southern Syria:

In a Christian village outside of Dara’a, in southern Syria, eye witnesses reported that twenty masked men on motorcycles opened fire on a Christian home while shouting malicious remarks against Christians in the street. According to another ICC source in Syria, churches received threatening letters during the Easter holidays telling them to join Salafi protestors or leave.

Last week in Duma, a suburb of Damascus, Salafis chanted, “Alawites to the grave and Christians to Beirut!” according to an ICC source and Tayyar.org, a Lebanese news agency. Christians in Syria are concerned that the agenda of many hard-line Islamists in Syria, including the Salafis, is to take over the government and kick Christians out of the country. “If Muslim Salafis gain political influence, they will make sure that there will be no trace of Christianity in Syria,” a Syrian Christian leader told ICC.

“We want to improve life and rights in Syria under this president, but we do not want terrorism. Christians will be first to pay the price of terrorism. ... What Christians are asking for is the realization that when changes are happening, it should happen not under certain agendas or for certain people, but for the people of Syria in a peaceful way under the current government.” Aidan Clay, ICC Regional Manager for the Middle East, said, “Unlike in Egypt, where Christians predominantly supported the revolution that removed President Hosni Mubarak from power, Syrian Christians have desired peace while demanding greater freedoms under the current government. Christians anticipate that only chaos and bloodshed will follow if Salafi demands are met. We urge the U.S. government to act wisely and carefully when developing policies that have deep political ramifications for Syria’s minorities by not indirectly supporting a foothold to be used by Salafis to carry out their radical agenda.”

(Syrian Christians Threatened by Salafi Protestors, Persecution News, International Christian Concern (ICC), May 4, 2011)

The attacks on Christians in Syria are reminiscent of the death squadron killings directed against Chaldean Christians in Iraq

The ironic thing about this is that modern day Turkey which is the child of the Young Turk Revolution is behind alot of this. One wonders if Turkish intervention leads to another Christian genocde in Syria, will the Turks take offence at being accused of carrying out genocide against christians. And by the way I believe many of the christians in Syria are descendent from the christians who survived Young Turk Genocide.

 

[r16]

spoilered with no alteration of text

Spoiler :

leads to wonder whether this is some kind of reverse psychology thing . First of all

will the Turks take offence at being accused of carrying out genocide

those here in CFC certainly do not need any reminders that ı know nothing of the sort , nor will ı ever accept and the undeniable fact is you would have to make us , the perceptionless , see . And why keep it limited to Armenians and ... how do you say Süryani in English and maybe Greeks after 1920 ? Afterall , Armenians have always told us the Holocaust was modeled on their own "experience" . No doubt in the after-effects as the French are about to reintroduce laws that ban being critical of the Armenian thesis . Now that ı wasn't planning to see Paris from the ground , no problem at all .

coincidentally , political squabling in country just led the PM announcing the main opposition party was in charge in late 1930s when some 10 thousand people were killed in one province . There have been even better things ; the first female combat pilot of the world , Sabiha Gökçen was involved in those operations and the second airport of Istanbul carries her name and a former seperatist/now loyalist says that name should be changed . Does it stop at that ? Of course not . One other guy said the single party state was responsible for the death of those 13 800 people , that state was established by Kuvay-ı Milliye ( the National Forces , irregulars of the War of Liberation of ours ) , hence Ittihad ve Terakki , hence Ergenekon ( remnants of NATO's stay behind forces turned into criminals aka Gladio ) . We just learned our War of Liberation is an American , European and inevitably Israeli construct . Germany is angry with us ... Well , wait until you get this armoured sea . There is division of labour in the world , you see , and just like invading Syria falls to Turkey , it has been German duty to put this intra-Turkish sectarian difference into limelight . We would have been shown the light long ago , alas the then German president fell across a glass table . Am just a parrot , ı repeat myself continiously .

nonetheless "our" lust for Syria is an embrassment . But "good" things also happen , the all conquering Saudis have gone into trouble with their Shia minority , so Al Jazeera forgot Syria , so even more democracy is coming to Eygpt . It is really tough to be a full friend of the West .

demands are so inscrutible , we hear we have too many soldiers and shed some and more and we hear we must invade Syria and we hear it is not numbers that make the power of a country and yet the mighty West does not have enough numbers of its own to , you know , bury us .

the newly elites smirk at old conceptions of power and remind us it is alliance making that counts , not one's own capabilities . Sure , alliances like the one we were having one with Syria last year so that we were to be united in the EU sense, next year we are to roll in and nobody hears Amerika first .

at this point it is appropriate to make note that "you" does not necessarily denote any single individual , throughout the entire post .

as it is fully possible to be distraught by the events in Libya . Though by now the Kaddafi sons are also instruments of the West : as soon as Seyfülislam gets caught and is "in great pain" , Hamis makes yeeet another comeback from the grave . What is it , does the NTC keep them in the fridge ? It is not necessarily awkward to get a shoot on sight thing against the Kaddafi sons in Libya . Neverminding the second sentence of this paragraph that has an unnecessary word of three letters .

returning to this thread it surely works against the basic premise, won't you think ? Albion is perfidious as a phrase already , Great Britain is as responsible as anyone for the First World War in the same exact economic long-term trends is a thesis ı have been long espousing though not in such clarity , Daddy Sarkozy ı don't like , Uncle Sam , err , yet all those reminders of the dastardly acts of the West , which all succeeded , kinda point out it is futile to resist . Indeed , Ottomans aka Turks are already shown to be such fools that we learn we took anything from what British agents gave us . Indeed , all those talking of the secret societies , people who talk in smoke filled rooms could surely lead to despair , had one felt that the weight was unbearable . Let me add to that narrative , before the Arabian Spring exploded a couple of guys here discovered a so far secret notebook from Talat , the great man of Ittihad , which "proves" that this number of Armenians were removed from country ; it is so kinda "new" if you know what ı mean , yet their work went to nowhere for the duration . Never been averse to conspiracy , or rather its pointless theorizing .

if the debate ever involves the CFR , there is this fundamentalist Christian author ( whose books turned up here in 2005 or so ) and Marr the priest proves their evilness by Islamic tradition (with some trepidition in crediting anything to this religion of savages ) that says the antichrist will carry those initials on his forehead , millenia old traditions that didn't exist before 1970s . West knows best . As said never been averse to conspiracy , or rather its pointless theorizing .

yes , we couldn't avoid WW1 , yes the Ottomans went under , yes this , yes that , yes we have regarded the first statement from CERN on those faster than light neutrinos with yeah right , ditto for the second , will be ditto for the third and yes , we are preparing for WW4 since we were good in archery .

 

[r16]

well , this Libyan armed himself and charged the Topkapı Palace . The neo-Ottomanism means nothing , except to those ten thousand jerks who now rule . Not that we will ever manage to tell people . Of course the now Libyan "authorities" know nothing about the guy who wounded 3 guards until reportedly killed . Reportedly because you know the NTC fridges are mighty inventions .

Spoiler :

quickly superseded by other developments . Joe Biden is around and his words reached the country before his body . Said he : We need you and you need us . Yeah right , said darth sixteenous . News bulletins are full , just like specialist sites . To prevent any more accidents it is floated that Iran has two working nuclear missile warheads bought from Kazahkistan , 4 artillery shells stolen by rogue Red Army officers at the meltdown of the Soviet Union to trigger the 6 bombs' worth of fissile material in a counter value setting added to a doctrine to use them . And Ukrainians have managed to lose 250 warheads for a full exchange if that comes to that . Of course the Saudi possession is also delicately claimed , proven by the Eygptian refusal to buy some at the time .

now that all the elements [that rather prefer the neo-Ottomans] are armed , hence the sticks are there , the carrots follow . Say by the declaration that US has turned over 10 to 20 bombs to Turkish Air Force , to be used by the 142 Squadron in the Mürted base . Yeah , a good reason to disband that unit . Americans are super , you tell them get their nukes outta here , they disperse them around even more . America giving us nukes . Hmpfft . Even better follows , drone strikes have killed 18 Turkish citizens in Afghanistan , every single member of the Turkish team of the Taliban . As there is no more "need" America is pardoning us . Over our sins of supporting Islamic extremism since we were racist Commie haters of America and would do anything to hurt 'em . Illogical ? Of course not , back in 2001 they were so into invading Iraq , they needed to justify their new allies and our abandonment . Anything happened in Turkey since then is strictly related to the American set-up in Tora Bora where they "discovered" NATO grade material abandoned by El Kaide . Not to worry says Biden , all is forgotten . Oh , really ?

many things have been said about the AI in various Civ games , and ı play 3 . And ı can confirm it is fully against the real life . With 20 gpt the game lets you live and if you stop the payments it is probably war . Real life peace comes with no money . We have been so insignificant that we had to pay our enemies so that they could deign to honour us by plotting our downfall . No funding whatsoever .

Spoiler :

cooperation ? Like the times Americans filmed Turkish soldiers getting killed and leaking it at the right moment ? There will be extreme full cooperation when Uncle Sam goes to hell .

biden says the mis/distrust between the two countries should end . Amerika first . Yeah , ı know it looses so much in translation .