The Zulu

[tothePAIN]

I'm playing a Zulu game right now. The Buffalo line feels great - its strong and makes me feel like I'm living up the Zulu fantasy of very mobile, skirmished like infantry.

 

[DaniSciB]

IMO Shaka is top tier now on human hands:

The buffalo line is good and they get their promotions 25% faster, on top of that they can create *Super Troops* very easy since Buffalo Line grant access to all T4 Promotions without any blocks.

This means, the same unit can get City Assault and March. Likewise it can get Stelwart and Overrun without needing to go through Shock and Drill line.

Combine this with the Zulu UA which makes easier to get promotions and you will have troops with Buffalo Line + City Assault + Stelwart + March + Blitz + Drill Line... By Midgame or by the time you unlock Impis, a level 7-8 (Without Drill Line yet) Zulu melee troop will be incredibly powerful and too hard to kill.

A level 11+ is just a Walking God. An Unrelenting Force. Literally, in my game, my lvl 10+ Fusiliers were able to 3 Shot a city... Alone. That means, a single fusilier was able to bring down a city in just 2 turns (Blitz). Now of course, besides the brutal Over Powerness of the promotions, there was a tech lead thanks to the early snowball.

Now, with a normal Civ, AKA "not sweden", you should be able to do something similar generally by late game (Getting Shock and Drill Lines), but the timing are not the same. Since March and Overrun are locked behind Shock line. Zulus can get all those strong promotions on lower levels and they level faster, that is a brutal combo.

They are certainly very powerful on human hands. What are your thoughts? Do you consider them top tier now?

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

Quoting my experience with the new Zulus from another thread.

Update on the game.

Well, seems like leveled up Impis are invincible, i have not lost a single one even without kill on heal from authority .... The hardest part of the Conquest was crossing that long bridge between China's OG cities and Poland's defenses.

Spoiler When you have +40 melee land units but that's the only way across. :

View attachment 567057

Won a DV, funnily enough i got the last two capitals (Morocco and Germany) in the same turn.

Spoiler T364 on Epic speed DV, not super optimized but was super fun. :

View attachment 567058

Will do ofc.
Are they fun? Absolutely.
Are they top tier warmongers like Mongolia, Songhai or even Sweeden? Nope, but they feel much better now.

I partially agree with you, they are more of mid game warmongers which is kind of weird given they need to be constantly in war to level up their melee units but they are neither particularly strong militarily in the early game nor have any bonuses towards anything other than leveling up their melee units to compensate for it.
Sure their Impis are absolutely the strongest land melee unit in the game by a far margin but surviving till renaissance with no bonuses to anything is just not particularly good in my Book compared to other strong warmongers.
on the other hand if you look at Sweden, Mongolia, Songhai, The Aztecs even Iroquois and Inca with their movement bonuses in rough terrain or Denmark with their funky pillage and runaway thing they all get direct bonuses to warfare (GG bonus, Siege weapons movement, attack bonus in case of Sweden, Steppe nomads for Mongolia, Songhai, The Inca, Iroquois movement in rough terrain and extra gold for capturing cities/barb camps for Songhai) that's available from the very beginning of the game and get their early game of snowballing going.
Don't get me wrong, i really like the current Zulus kit as it's extremely fun and satisfying to min/max but it's more difficult for the AI to use properly.

I think they are fun and the Iklwa promotion is very exploitable by human player but not so AI friendly.
The buffalo line is cool but my main issue with the Zulus is their entire kit does nothing but make them better at waging war, they get nothing for conquest ... just beefy and hard to kill melee units which is super fun but other warmongers are objectively better.
My rating for Warmongers is still Songhai, Sweden, Aztecs and Denmark as the Top tier.
The Zulus are fun but not as strong as the above mentioned civs in my games .... even the Inca, Iroquois and the Huns can do better overall despite not being super warmongers due to having bonuses elsewhere in their kits that help them even when they hit a wall with conquest.

 

[tothePAIN]

IMO Shaka is top tier now on human hands:

The buffalo line is good and they get their promotions 25% faster, on top of that they can create *Super Troops* very easy since Buffalo Line grant access to all T4 Promotions without any blocks.

This means, the same unit can get City Assault and March. Likewise it can get Stelwart and Overrun without needing to go through Shock and Drill line.

Combine this with the Zulu UA which makes easier to get promotions and you will have troops with Buffalo Line + City Assault + Stelwart + March + Blitz + Drill Line... By Midgame or by the time you unlock Impis, a level 7-8 (Without Drill Line yet) Zulu melee troop will be incredibly powerful and too hard to kill.

A level 11+ is just a Walking God. An Unrelenting Force. Literally, in my game, my lvl 10+ Fusiliers were able to 3 Shot a city... Alone. That means, a single fusilier was able to bring down a city in just 2 turns (Blitz). Now of course, besides the brutal Over Powerness of the promotions, there was a tech lead thanks to the early snowball.

Now, with a normal Civ, AKA "not sweden", you should be able to do something similar generally by late game (Getting Shock and Drill Lines), but the timing are not the same. Since March and Overrun are locked behind Shock line. Zulus can get all those strong promotions on lower levels and they level faster, that is a brutal combo.

They are certainly very powerful on human hands. What are your thoughts? Do you consider them top tier now?

They're top tier warmonger but weak early, like Korea. They either conquer at some point or are weak.

I haven't played a game yet where Zulu are one of the AI - I need to see how they do in that game.

 

[pineappledan]

I worry that putting all this power into the promotion line makes Zulu pretty 1-note. Even if they aren’t necessarily top tier, pushing the melee unit promo line even further would make them play even worse in human hands.

In addition to the promotion changes, I noticed G also increased gun unit maintenance to -50, so that’s a pretty decent economic boost right there.

One other possibility is adding some extra effect to the tribute bonus. Right now, Zulu’s bonus is in many respects a direct downgrade from Mongolia’s. Mongols can ignore aspects of CS tribute defense and have a straight 2x multiplier on all bullying effects. Meanwhile, Zulu only have a +50% to Army strength when bullying. The end result is both lower the threshold for tributing and increase yields on tribute, but Mongolia increases it more. I think Zulu would benefit from some other bonus for tributing.

some ideas:

• Tributing reduces influence for all civilizations by 50% of the influence lost by the Zulu.
• Tributing Steals Gold from the City-State's Ally equivalent to 50% of the tributed yields.
• All cities gain Points towards Border Growth equivalent to 50% of the tributed yields.

 

[DaniSciB]

AI Zulu probably will struggle since as ToThePain said, Shaka does not have early boosts to conquest capabilities. In fact. Shaka benefits for using mainly Melee Troops. not ranged (Only for city defense and maybe Medics), horses are not needed to be honest.

In my game there was no point to use them. Impis where just far better than well promoted Lancers and Cuirassiers. Impis where just as efficient to take cities as Field Guns.

Zulus great mobility and flanking bonuses combined with that Shaka can create "inmortal" troops easy and early makes Melee troops good for Guerrilla and surviving.

If a level 7 Impi is a killing machine that can Solo Cities, one shot almost any enemy troop, has a massive defense, good mobility and a special ranged attack... Then Horses and Siege machines become "obsolete" by the time the Impis are *decently* promoted, which is very early (2xp per turn + 25% less exp needed + OP promotions available earlier).

A Impi has double attack, more defense benefits, is an Anti Mounted Unit and also a Siege Machine.

Zulus might not be that great on AI hands.

But:

1) OP promos are available earlier and you can level up your troops considerably faster.

2) Your melee troops have 25+ HP and 1 extra movement.

3) Your UU is stronger (CS) and has a special attack.

Yeah... On human hands, they are indeed very fun, and very strong too haha.

 

[Zanteogo]

Doing a Zulu game now, and have to say they are probably a tad too powerful now. Find myself hanging out in a crushed enemy civ pillaging and killing any units that pop up.

Quickly getting level 10+ units that just start snowballing. Because my units are surviving due to their level and such I'm not needing to replace them and my cities are focusing on infrastructure.

The experience per turn should probably be removed.

 

[tothePAIN]

For those people posting about their experiences with Zulu, can you post a bit more about the game? Settings, runaways, particularly difficulty?

My theory is that Zulu are a bit like Korea, in that they can snowball really hard now,just as a warmonger, not a science civ. On Higher difficulties, even super infantry can be stopped, due to the high anti-warmonger penalty, so Zulu is still vulnerable to a tradition snowballer, but on lower difficulties, it's very strong.

If we were to nerf Zulu, I'd nerf the xp to 1 per turn on enemy territory. But I'd hold off for more experience and more input from other players first.

 

[pineappledan]

Can confirm. playing vs AI zulu is excruciating. Impi absorb an incredible amount of punishment.

It is thoroughly unpleasant to have to fight Shaka. It is a grind, especially in Renaissance. I lose 1.5 units for every unit he loses

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

For those people posting about their experiences with Zulu, can you post a bit more about the game? Settings, runaways, particularly difficulty?

My theory is that Zulu are a bit like Korea, in that they can snowball really hard now,just as a warmonger, not a science civ. On Higher difficulties, even super infantry can be stopped, due to the high anti-warmonger penalty, so Zulu is still vulnerable to a tradition snowballer, but on lower difficulties, it's very strong.

If we were to nerf Zulu, I'd nerf the xp to 1 per turn on enemy territory. But I'd hold off for more experience and more input from other players first.

I don't really think Zulus are that strong to warrant a nerf ... The Iklwa promotion is just expolitable by humans like a lot of things in the game.

 

[ElliotS]

I'll suggest that the 2 XP / Turn could be changed for something more AI friendly, even if an economic bonus is off the table. If we must keep it similar: Why not +1 XP per turn in friendly territory?

 

[ICanHasName?]

Why not just more xp bonus from the normal sources. The AI understands how to attack stuff, better to reward that then perpetual fake war with a city state or something.

 

[CrazyG]

I'd say the 2 XP in enemy territory is super exploitable for humans and the best thing to change.

 

[chicorbeef]

I think it could just be dropped. If I remember right, Impi get extra XP on Spear Throws from the ranged attack, which stacks up very well with the -25% promotion cost. I don't think they need even more XP. The existing 10% attack bonus from Iklwa on top of the buffalo tree sounds solid enough.

 

[pineappledan]

I don't like the XP because it's abusable. We got rid of XP in foreign territory before, yet it is back for some reason.

I don't like bonus to attack because that's identical to Sweden.

 

[Zanteogo]

I don't like the XP because it's abusable. We got rid of XP in foreign territory before, yet it is back for some reason.

I don't like bonus to attack because that's identical to Sweden.

The experience in foreign territory is just over kill. The Zulu already level up their units super fast as it is.

When playing with them parking your army in a defeated civ for several turns definitely helps create super units.

 

[Stalker0]

I think it could just be dropped. If I remember right, Impi get extra XP on Spear Throws from the ranged attack, which stacks up very well with the -25% promotion cost. I don't think they need even more XP. A 10% attack bonus as a free promo on top of the buffalo tree sounds solid enough.

Do they even need that consider all the other buffs Zulu just got? Maybe we could simply remove the free XP and call it a day.

 

[Zanteogo]

Do they even need that consider all the other buffs Zulu just got? Maybe we could simply remove the free XP and call it a day.

Agreed. If we have further issues afterwards we can revisit them.

 

[chicorbeef]

Do they even need that consider all the other buffs Zulu just got? Maybe we could simply remove the free XP and call it a day.

That's what I was proposing, sorry for wording that badly. The +10% attack buff I was talking about was the one they already get from the Iklwa promotion.

 

[DaniSciB]

They get promotions very fast, particularly the Impis.

They get strong promotions early.

Indeed the 2xp per turn on enemy lands is just overkill and very exploitable for humans.

I think it should be removed, not replaced with something else... Zulus are strong enough already and things like extra CS would make their UU even more ridiculous.