They Should Probably Fix Global Warming.

[r_rolo1]

But the desertification would not be permanent The nuclear winter debris would not stay forever in the high atmosphere, you know..... and there is a thing called seeds

 

[Camikaze]

Seeds are produced by plants. If there are no plants, there are no seeds. Desertification is an almost irreversible process. Soil deteriorates to sand, and becomes uninhabitable for plants. 'Part from cactus.

 

[r_rolo1]

How much time do you actually think that the global winter would last? 10000 years? And soil, even if destroyed, can be (re)generated. That, combined with the high resistance of weed seeds, means that maybe in 50 years to atleast you would have something very similar to a stepe, not to say some bushes.

 

[Camikaze]

Well, let's give it a reasonable time, say, 100 years, to recover. By the time you get to using nukes, there isn't going to be 100 turns left for the earth to recover.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Well, let's give it a reasonable time, say, 100 years, to recover. By the time you get to using nukes, there isn't going to be 100 turns left for the earth to recover.

Not necessarily true. I've had them in the late 1600's.

Edit: And turns are much more than a year then.

 

[Camikaze]

I reckon that when the game was being made, they expected it to follow a realistic timeline. So they wouldn't have factored in a recovery for desertification (which they call global warming, for some reason), assuming that 100 years after nukes would be used, the game would be over.

 

[r_rolo1]

Well, let's give it a reasonable time, say, 100 years, to recover. By the time you get to using nukes, there isn't going to be 100 turns left for the earth to recover.

That assuming that there occurs complete anihalation of the vegetal cover in a area... a thing that I'm quite reticent to believe, to say the truth.....

The best comparation I can give about nuclear winter is the "Year without summer" ( wiki and discovery ) that happened in the 1816, most likely because of a period of 5 years with some massive dust throwing action ( culminated by the Tambore eruption in 1815 ), but maybe a order of magnitude higher. The Earth would not enter in a Exterminator or Matrix style darkness, but would suffer some years of intense reduction of the solar power reaching the ground.That combined with both warming of the higher atmosphere and the relative minor cooling of the oceans would make some serious shifts in the weather patterns for a while.... but probably nothing that weeds and liquens would not support ( like in the tundras )

P.S A 3-digit year time frame for soil and plant covering recovery in a area implies both complete destruction of the soil and of the seeds, a thing that it is not realistical on a area of the size of the civ IV tiles, especially near rivers. Most likely it would take less that 20 years to recover from nuclear winter induced desertification ( quoting Carl Sagan here ) , mainly because the nuclear winter does not wipe away soil directly.

 

[Camikaze]

Hmm. Fair enough. Does that mean, however, that after a period of 20 years, everything would turn into tundra? Or would it change back to its original pristine state?

 

[r_rolo1]

Pristine state is maybe too much ( because the pristine state of this planet is rocks without plants , as it was when there was no life in this planet ). But i believe that, if the soil is not completely destroyed, in 20 years you should have atleast bushes if the there is enough water, if we assume that the vegetal cover is destroyed ( and not enter in dormancy ), maybe even some pine forests .... not obviously 500 year sequoias of course

 

[binhthuy71]

Following up on r_rolo1's historical example, in 1883 the volcano on Krakatoa island erupted with the estimated power of a 200 megaton nuclear bomb. The release of ash into the upper atmosphere was substantial enough to cause temperatures to drop by 1.2 degrees Celsius the following year and weather patterns were disrupted for five years. On the other hand, researchers visiting the island the following year found grass shoots already growing although the only living creature they could find was one solitary spider.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I reckon that when the game was being made, they expected it to follow a realistic timeline. So they wouldn't have factored in a recovery for desertification (which they call global warming, for some reason), assuming that 100 years after nukes would be used, the game would be over.

Rolo already commented on the realism in terms of recovery time, so I'll just go ahead and point out that if the designers intended for us to be able to win on emperor + (and especially immortal/deity), then they intended us to FAR SURPASS the tech rate of real life. Deity AIs can launch the ship in the 1800's fairly often, can hit liberalism around 500-700 AD, and so on. Those aren't exaggerated times...they're fairly typical.

Realistic timelines are only seen noble and below, and to win most players still outdo it.

 

[Camikaze]

Perhaps that explains why desertification doesn't occur to those that are nuked.

 

[Camikaze]

Rolo already commented on the realism in terms of recovery time, so I'll just go ahead and point out that if the designers intended for us to be able to win on emperor + (and especially immortal/deity), then they intended us to FAR SURPASS the tech rate of real life. Deity AIs can launch the ship in the 1800's fairly often, can hit liberalism around 500-700 AD, and so on. Those aren't exaggerated times...they're fairly typical.

Realistic timelines are only seen noble and below, and to win most players still outdo it.

But I'd say that the game was designed for Noble, or with the Noble timeframe in mind. Which is why it is the default.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

But I'd say that the game was designed for Noble, or with the Noble timeframe in mind. Which is why it is the default.

A majority of players play levels > noble.

Also, there's no excuse for not balancing features based on difficulty.

There's also no excuse for GW in civ IV. It's a garbage feature based on something with no proven causality to date. Why is this fairy magic desert spell allowed in the game? GW in civ is no more realistic than trading people fur causing them to spontaneously combust.

Why not let us "build" army ants while they're at it, ones that are capable of devouring entire cities? Why not just put magic spells in basic civ? Because that's what GW is. A magic spell that destroys a terrain improvement and turns it into desert with 0 logical explanation, basis in real life, or true causality in-game.

 

[r_rolo1]

To say the truth, GW hits in regular civ IV reminds me of the infernal terrain in FfH.... or the other way around . But atleast in FfH the spread of infernal terrain makes sense ( people going evil makes Erebus transform in hell, so the terrain going to Infernal is a logic consequence ). In Civ IV.... well, atleast before 3.17 we could say that it was a punishment for nuke usage ( evil nuker, eat desert ) , but in 3.17..... I really can't see any logic in that, besides being a punishment for being industrialized ( not even advanced.... TAM ( the ancient mediterranean ) mod had some complaints about GW after 3.17 ) and/or using nukes. I love SMAC, but in Civ IV we don't need a Planet-like mechanic punishing the humans for being industrialized

 

[deanej]

Is the fact that nukes cause global warming even documented in the game? If it's not, it may not be that Firaxis is tieing it to nukes to suggest causation of any kind, but rather as an indicator of how advanced the world is (the reasoning "If a player has nukes the world is advanced enough that global warming would soon be a factor"). It could be that Firaxis was just being lazy.

 

[omnimutant]

Well I do know that in game, GW happens with or without nukes being Launched so you may be on to something. However, the rapid succession of nuke launches seems to speed up the process dramatically.

In reality GW only serves to make politicians rich IMO.

Thinks about radioactive seeds (Gilligans Island episode)... that could be fun! :vinking:

 

[r_rolo1]

Firaxis links explicitely GW to nukes.... see the civilopedia ( Game concepts->Nukes->scroll to the end )

Global Warming

Use of nuclear weapons will cause Global Warming to begin, turning previously fertile tiles into useless desert. Prolonged nuclear exchanges will transform the world into an uninhabitable wasteland.

 

[omnimutant]

Thats got to be wrong because I've had global warming without any nukes being launched in BTS.

 

[deanej]

That was changed in 3.17. Before then it only happened due to nukes.