They've pushed it too far

[G-Man]

By murdering a minister in a democracy, they've not only commited a crime, they've also hurted the 350,000 people that support his party. Israel didn't target anyone who's not involved in the fighting. They killed innocent people before, but now they've hurted democracy and the foundations of Israel society, and that's totaly unacceptable. In Israel we have the freedom of speech and the freedom of belief. And they can't take it away, though they seem to try as hard as they can.

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

Has it been proven to be a act committed by palestinians?
(Sharon has no interrest in peace)

 

[G-Man]

They took responsibility. And why do you think Sharon isn't interested in peace? He has a harder line then Rabin and Peres but he's still after peace.

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

Sorry G-Man ,but i really think Sharon has nothing to win and a lot to lose with peace. (unless it's tottaly on his term's ,and he ask's a lot)
I never think Sharon will give up the settlements ,as most of his supporters & voters would be realy mad with that.

I have readed a lot of european magazine's with article's about Sharon.they all said that with Sharon peace was highly un-likly.

 

[Dogberry_Old]

The PLFP took responsibilty. The Isrealis assassinated their top guy a while back. This looks like a tit-for-tat thing. Can't say I have much sympathy for either side on this thing.

Dog

 

[G-Man]

Sharon does have high demand right now, but that's because that's how Israelis feel. I mean, we gave Palestinians some area an an authority, and terror got worse. If we'll give them a country how can we be sure they won't continue with it? If, however, Arafat will be able to stop terrorists, Israelis will slowly become more left winged, and then, like in any other democracy, the PM will have to be more left winged.
I once heard about someone who said life is like a pyramid. You need to have the base before you can be happier. Happier people are willing to give up more in order to preserve what they have. The only problem is that security is one of the most basic needs, and today Israelis don't have it.

Dogberry - The PFLP is a terror orgenization, convicted of killing civilians (including several car bombs in the week before we killed him), and their leader was wanted by Israel. He didn't turn himself in, and the Palestinians didn't turn him in or allowed us to take him and put him on trial, and therefore Israel had no choice.
Ze'evi, however, didn't kill any Palestinian, he just had strong opinions against them. Israel don't kill people because of their opinion. If we would like to do so we could just shoot some rockets into one of those rallies.

 

[Strik]

G-man, have you ever considered that the UN/NATO gave land to the israeli which wasn't theirs. And you took their land and the palestinians are now captive in their own country. I do not like their method but they do should have a country of their own. I think the Isreali owe them that much.

I'm really making friends know

 

[Dogberry_Old]

Ok... sorry G-Man, did not know all the facts of the matter.. however I do know that the PFLP was one of the original Middle Eastern terrorist organisations. From here .. it looks like a bunch of gangsters killing each other.
I know that is unfair.. but there it is.

What is really ironic, is that if the Palestinians turned to mass non-violent means .. they would have almost all of their demands met in a very short time. Of course, Arafat & his thugs would never allow that. If I were "King" & I am not, I would send the FBI in & arrest the whole damn lot.. & send them into permenent exile. I hear Saint Helena is vacant right now.

Of course I would send all the Isreali "settlers" to Penguin Isle in Antartica, ..here... "settle this. "


Dog

 

[Simon Darkshade]

This does put in perspective the alleged peaceful leanings of these poor little Palestinian terrorist types. Yes, the PFLP are some of the oldest and worst terrorists in the conflict, and should rightly be targeted. Shooting an ex-minister, a politician in a democracy, go's beyond the pale. This is driving the situation towards open war, and that can only end one way, in a Israeli victory, but with so many more dead.

It was put well in another post on these forums about how the Israelis cannot be given the complete blame for the Palestinian refugee situation, or indeed any blame. As a whole, the Palestinians left voluntarily, expecting to be back soon. The big point is, what did the surrounding countries do to settle them in? Not a lot, except perhaps Jordan in the early days. It was in the interests of the surrounding Arab powers to keep a poor, militant population of Palestinians in existence and maintain the rage.

I maintain my position in support of Israel. If this keeps going, I hope they go after the PA and impale every one of them along the River Jordan as a sign to all those who might try something similar.
Except that keffiaed manyouk Arafat would probably enjoy it too much...

 

[Graeme the mad]

You cant really blame the actions of terrorists on Arafat as many Israelis (dare I say most) seem to want to.
He has taken a suprisingly hard line in the past coupla weeks and Im impressed.
Terrorists are terrorists however: but palestine is not at fault (maybe Israel should see what happens if they get given their own country - its not gonna be worse is it?)

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by Strik
G-man, have you ever considered that the UN/NATO gave land to the israeli which wasn't theirs. And you took their land and the palestinians are now captive in their own country. I do not like their method but they do should have a country of their own. I think the Isreali owe them that much.

I'm really making friends know

1. UN/NATO didn't give Israel land. The British couldn't support their empire after WWII and so they withdrew from from a lot of places they had no interest in. Israel is one of them.
2. Israel didn't take Palestinian land, the Palesitinan and their arab friends attacked Israel (Israelis agreed to UN decision, arabs didn't) and Israel won.
3. Israel has agreed to give the Palestinians a land of their own. Infact Sharon said do many times recently, including yesterday. If we wouldn't want them to have a country we wouln't give them the PA. The problem is that Israel needs to know that Arafat can control the terrorists before we give him more.

Simon Darkshade - The Palestinians were about to get almost everything, but then they started the intifada

Graeme the mad - Israel isn;t balming Arafat for conducting the terror attacks, but we do know he gave the terrorists a "green light" to attack Israel and that although Israel withdrew from Palestinian territories and stoped closures he hasn't done his part of the deal which is to arrest terrorists. If "palestine is not at fault" then who is? Or should I remind you that Israel is the only country that has ever gave terrorists their demands - and look where it got us to.

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

Although i agree with Simon that most Arab nation never have been very friendly for the israeli ,i won't take that as a reason to justify all their actions.
I'm tottaly against the settlements and Israel should give them back to the palestinians.i agree that would make them a small country.But belgium is small to ,but we don't build settlements in Holland, (oh wait ,Baarle Hertog is....)
or in North-west France (wich was once flemmish territory)

 

[Graeme the mad]

'Israel is the only country that has given terrorists their demands'

COmpletley untrue: many, many countries have, notably those that gave up their colonies post ww2 - Britain now has also made concessions to the IRA (and may history forgive us)

And Israel is blaming Arafat - he however has NOT given the green light at any point and I believe he is against violence towards ISrael.

All in all though its one pretty messed confliuct with racist hatred on both sides - now, like northern Ireland, without real reason.

I think what terry pratchett said about diplomacy applies: Diplomats dont just have to deal with the normal things when arraging a reception - who's not talking to who because of what they said about our sharon: diplomats have to deal with whole countries who have broken off diplomatic relations because of what their ancestors said about our sharon

 

[G-Man]

- So britain gave the people of N. Ireland a country of their own? Guess CNN forgot to mention it...

- Arafat DID give the green light to start the intifada - one of his ministers said so in an interview.

- If Arafat is against violence but it still continues, I guess we'll have to talk to someone else. And untill we'll find one we can't allow the PA to continue to support terrorists

- Israel ISN'T racist. Please don't say anymore stupid things unless you can proove them

- I didn't understand what you said about diplomacy...

 

[H Tower]

um, could someone tell me who got assinated in the isreali government? US newspapers seem like they only cover the war in afghanistan.

 

[G-Man]

Rehav'am Ze'evi (nicknamed "Gandi") Israel's tourism minister and chairman of the "Moledet" (Homeland) party.

 

[Chris1111]

The minister that was killed killed was supposedely to be retiring in a day or so to.

IMO The violence will not stop if the palestinians get a state they will all continue to kill each other over "religion" like they have for 100s and 100s of years.

When I stop seeing their "children" carry around ak-47's then maybe I will have sympathy for them.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

The minister was a right-wing, hardliner who stated that palestinians should be deported to other arab countries...

I feel his death is a million times more justified than the deaths of the people at the pizza place or any number of outrages...

At least they were targetting an outspoken enemy of palestine rather than the innocent...political decapitation has a point, killing of civilians doesn't.

What is the point kitten? The point is a civilian won't influence any major policy decisions whilst a hardliner minister will...if he was retiring then you have to say that it was probably just as pointless as a civilian, but less of an outrage than most of the bombings...Israel merely want to make a big deal out of it to cover up the fact THEY returned to killing prominent leaders in the Palestinian community...a destabalising move which they do just to stir the trouble so they can keep the status quo that suits Israel fine.

 

[amadeus]

Look, to say that Ariel Sharon doesn't want peace is crap...

You've got to be militant when you're dealing with that backstabbing sonofa***** Arafat.

 

[G-Man]

kittenOFchaos - So you're saying that killing a 75 years old granfather because of his thoughts is like killing an active terrorist? Welcome to democracy. A man can have any opinions without being killed for that. Israel NEVER targeted someone beacuse of his opinions. I don't think you understand how serious it is, so in order to give you some perspective I want you to imagine a history book talking about the Intifada, as history puts everything into perspective. It won't say anything about the Sbarro or the discotech bombings. IT will, however, say a lot about this. This is not an attack against Israeli occupation as they like to call their murders, it's an attack on Israel's moral foundations. And that's something even the pacificts - that always say we should withdrew without an agreement and things like that - won't allow to happen.