[RD] Does free speech even exist as a concept?

[cardgame]

Is it though?

They increased taxes (which were paid in agricultural produce) during the famine and continued exporting food out of the country while the famine raged. In both cases. In addition to this, prior to the famine occurring, they placed a huge importance on cash crops replacing food crops, again in both cases, and in Bengal they had an absolute monopoly on the grain market. What did they do with that monopoly? They made money while the people starved to death. A full 1/3 of the population. Does that not seem out of the ordinary to you?

 

[brennan]

And if the British weren't involved then none of that would have happened and everyone would have lived?

 

[Old Hippy]

But when they are framed in direct comparison to the crimes of the Third Reich, and that comparison frames the Third Reich in a favourable light- well, whether or not the speaker is consciously supportive of the project of these anti-Communist Holocaust deniers, he is surely doing their work.

that works both ways even when nobody here is framing the third reich in a favorable way or denying the holocast.... the lessor of two evils argument and another million dead
casting marxist communism in a more favorable light to Hitler leads regardless of whether the speaker is supportive of the marxist communist death tolls or not, he is surely doing their work like the million dead in ethiopian famines and civil wars often even other marxists because people's particular ideologies are always right they are never the bad guy, they don't even ask that question of themselves

Following the deposition of Emperor Haile Selassie on 12 September 1974, the Derg was faced with a number of civilian groups competing for control of Ethiopia, most notably the communist Ethiopian People's Revolutionary Party (EPRP). In September 1976, EPRP militants were arrested and executed, at the same time as the EPRP carried out an assassination campaign against ideologues and supporters of the Derg. Although an unsuccessful attempt to kill Mengistu on 23 September was attributed to the EPRP, the first prominent victim of the EPRP's terror was Dr. Feqre Mar'ed, a member of the Political Bureau and All-Ethiopia Socialist Movement(MEISON), another Marxist-Leninist party.

This campaign involved organized groups of civilians, or kebeles, which within a month's time began to receive arms from the Derg. "Contrary to expectations," note researcher Marina Ottaway and then Washington Post correspondent David Ottaway in their account, "these squads did not all side with the Derg or heed its call to track down 'reactionaries' and 'anarchists'. Rather, many followed their own whim and law, in accordance to the political faction that controlled each kebele or factory. Not only had numerous defense squads been infiltrated by the EPRP, but also those controlled by the Political Bureau were often bent on furthering the interests of MEISON rather than the Derg."

its an argument that only ends in "my dead civilian is better than your dead civilian" type arguments whereas both EXTREMES of left/right are bad/evil and just as crazed

july 13 1985 peoples best response ''lets hold a rock concert'' to show we care (it did raise $125 million and a knighthood)

 

[Traitorfish]

casting marxist communism in a more favorable light to Hitler leads regardless of whether the speaker is supportive of the marxist communist death tolls or not, he is surely doing their work

Thing is, that doesn't really follow. Downplaying the crimes of Marxist-Leninist regimes is now mostly mostly associated with various nationalists without unambiguous left-right affiliations, and to the extent that the crimes of the Third Reich are exaggerated (and I'm not at all convinced they are), this is not specifically associated with the far-left. Whatever dubious analogies you've drawn between Nazism and Communism, it doesn't follow that their presence in the historical imagination is identical.

edit: apparently ninja'd below post

 

[Old Hippy]

Thing is, doesn't really follow. Downplaying the crimes of Marxist-Leninist regimes is now mostly mostly associated with various nationalists without unambiguous left-right affiliations, and to the extent that the crimes of the Third Reich are exaggerated (and I'm not at all convinced they are), this is not specifically associated with the far-left.

yes it doesn't really follow.... are you saying that the far left dose not consider the far right as Narzis because the far left incorporates the marxist communists who seem to call the right in general "Nazis". if it doesn't follow then your saying that the marxists are made up of various nationalists which would mean that you have tried to convince yourself that their is no difference between ambiguous nationalist movements and ambiguous marxist communists a sort of metaphysic mirror image and then go on to say i have delusions and weird theories
when your response consists of saying marxists- leninists are mostly associated with various nationalists you have gone the full macintosh and seem to be convincing yourself that the is no difference between the National Socialist German Workers' Party. and Marxist-leninist in today's terminology of left and right and now are trying to convince me of this....
but No, I see a difference and still maintain both extremes of the right and left need an other or grand conspiracy to blame and hate for their ideologies to make sense for them that's where the term far or alt comes in

You may have convinced yourself there's some metaphysical mirror-image between the Third Reich and Soviet Union, but it doesn't follow that the rest of the world plays out as a dramatisation of your weird theories

most of the world knows it's a fragile balance between peace and insanity - the middle ground and extreme ideologies, recent history has taught us this

 

[Traitorfish]

yes it doesn't really follow.... are you saying that the far left dose not consider the far right as Narzis because the far left incorporates the marxist communists who seem to call the right in general "Nazis". if it doesn't follow then your saying that the marxists are made up of various nationalists which would mean that you have tried to convince yourself that their is no difference between ambiguous nationalist movements and ambiguous marxist communists a sort of metaphysic mirror image and then go on to say i have delusions and weird theories
when your response consists of saying marxists- leninists are mostly associated with various nationalists you have gone the full macintosh and seem to be convincing yourself that the is no difference between the National Socialist German Workers' Party. and Marxist-leninist in today's terminology of left and right and now are trying to convince me of this....

No. What I said was, denying, downplaying or apologising for the crimes of Marxist-Leninist regimes is something more strongly associated with nationalist than with the left. I'm thinking specifically of Russian and Chinese nationalists, who have a soft-spot for the authoritarian strongmen of the twentieth century, despite a lack of clear ideological affinity (and sometimes a clear ideological hostility), on the grounds that they were national strongmen, that they created and oversaw strong and respected national states.There are certainly holdout far-left sects still churning out apologies for Stalin or Mao, but they aren't exactly much of a force, at least not in a Western context. Even their limited relevance to the far-left itself is somewhat watered down by the the Trotskyist or anarchist sects that are equally hostile to Stalin and Mao, indicating that this is a characteristic of whatever specific ideological or institutional tradition that sect belongs to, rather than to "the far-left" as a whole. In short, apology for the crimes of Marxist-Leninist regimes is not narrowly or exclusively associated with Communists or fellow-travelers; that the average or garden variety Stalin-apologists is unlikely to be a Communist or even, necessarily, very fond of Communists.

In contrast to this, attempts to downplay the significance of the Holocaust are pretty narrowly associated with the nationalist right. There's not a great deal ambiguity, there. At best, some of these nationalists are ambivalent about their precise feelings about Germany. Apology for for the crimes of Nazism is narrowly and exclusively with fascists and fellow-travelers. The average Nazi-apologist, or even the average Wehraboo, has a strong stink of fash about them. So, there's not a strong analogy to be drawn.

but No, I see a difference and still maintain both extremes of the right and left need an other or grand conspiracy to blame and hate for their ideologies to make sense for them that's where the term far or alt comes in
most of the world knows it's a fragile balance between peace and insanity - the middle ground and extreme ideologies, recent history has taught us this

Fifty years ago, the middle ground was enforcing both halves of "separate but equal". The middle ground was allowing gay people to do what they like behind close doors, provided they stayed behind closed doors. The middle ground was allowing women to have careers, as long as they didn't stray into masculine spaces. The middle ground has rarely been on the right side of history. Strange, then, that the exact middle ground which has manifested itself in the English-speaking world circa 2018 should have achieved the Ideal State.

 

[Ajidica]

july 13 1985 peoples best response ''lets hold a rock concert'' to show we care (it did raise $125 million and a knighthood)

You are aware it has been pretty credibly demonstrated that the Live Aid funds were skimmed by the Derg to purchase weapons and the aid allowed the Derg to continue their military campaign for longer?

 

[Old Hippy]

. Strange, then, that the exact middle ground which has manifested itself in the English-speaking world circa 2018 should have achieved the Ideal State.

there is no middle ground in today's politics its fractured and people are moving to the extremes surely you have heard of the rise of right wing parties in Europe, Trump in the US..A centalist view would have factions of both left and right and respond on issues like women's rights. gay marriage. civil liberties and separate but equal like it has in the past with women's rights, gay marriage and civil liberties. things your heard of but seem unaware they are already a thing nowadays They can be improved but not with half the population screaming Nazi at the other half it just needs people to actually decide to have a middle ground to discuss things liberal Capitalists and open minded conservatives to actually deal with issues that affect people you imply that things like gay marriage couldn't be achieved and yet they were here under the conservatives. we don't live in an ideal state. that would require compromise not something common circa 2018
A 50-50 vote split is not middle ground its the exact opposite

You are aware it has been pretty credibly demonstrated that the Live Aid funds were skimmed by the Derg to purchase weapons and the aid allowed the Derg to continue their military campaign for longer?

yes but they didn't get the knighthood.... and people got to show their caring virtuous side

 

[cardgame]

Remember, democracy was an extreme political position once.

Centrism isn't the worst thing in the world, but it is doing a disservice ala 'the truth is in the middle' fallacy* when the overton window has shifted so far to the right.

*extreme: lots and lots of arsenic in your food -----> middle "some arsenic can be good actually" <----- extreme: no arsenic in your food

 

[Old Hippy]

Remember, democracy was an extreme political position once.

Centrism isn't the worst thing in the world, but it is doing a disservice ala 'the truth is in the middle' fallacy* when the overton window has shifted so far to the right.

*extreme: lots and lots of arsenic in your food -----> middle "some arsenic can be good actually" <----- extreme: no arsenic in your food

take arsenic in rice, a current controversial topic--- the truth is in the middle

Yes, arsenic is toxic. And it has been associated with lung, skin and bladder cancer, among other health concerns. And yes, even though it contains arsenic, you can still eat rice. ... The FDA has even set a limit on the amount of inorganic arsenic allowed in infant rice cereal.Feb 14, 2017

the middle ground is where the FDA takes notice of the concerns raised and regulates it so people can feel safe that they are not getting lung, skin and bladder cancer and infants can be fed rice cereal by mothers introducing solids to their baby in the knowledge it is safe in cases like that both sides of politics should see the need for government regulations even extreme libertarians that see all government interference as problematic yet would see the need for regulation (probably) even if just to safeguard infant food manufacturers

 

[Lemon Merchant]

Moderator Action: I thought this thread was about free speech? If you want to discuss other not relevant topics, please start a new thread. In the meantime, could we please get back to the thread topic?

 

[Old Hippy]

I keep hearing right-wingers talk about how they are being 'silenced' and denied 'free speech' by universities and corporations. The argument seems to be that if certain viewpoints are ostracized, even if there is no coercion involved, the result is the same - with the opinion banished from the public sphere.

So here's a little thought experiment: substitute every opinion you think is being unfairly restricted with a belief that black people should be re-enslaved. Should that be tolerated by employers or given a platform by universities? Would you want to associate with someone holding that view?

It seems to me that these folks believe that free speech is about letting rational debate decide what is best, and if they aren't permitted to speak their beliefs than those beliefs are being undermined unfairly, i.e. they aren't being properly refuted. And, if you think about it, that's insane - should Holocaust survivors be subjected to arguments that they are liars? Should Latinos be forced to defend their genetic fitness to justify their presence in the United States?

I think this reasoning comes from the view that rationality and a free flow of information is somehow the thing responsible for democracy, human rights, etc. Sorry, but it isn't.

sorry but it is required for democracy
back to the topic of free speech
people like Germaine Greer (an Australian writer and public intellectual, regarded as one of the major voices of the second-wave feminist movement in the latter half of the 20th century.) are being silenced at Universities for not being the right kind of feminist
it's not limited to individuals tho they plan to silence all opposing voices to their own fanatical views they just have to figure out how.... and they are trying
just look at the chart in the article it's like something out of the X files and just as crazy and blind to alternate opinions

/www.theguardian.com/media/2018/sep/18/report-youtubes-alternative-influence-network-breeds-rightwing-radicalisation

a report examines ways to stop people having alternate views because of "anti feminist anti LGBQT+ white supremacy" even tho the listed people connected to each other as all far alt right consist of men and women of different races and sexuality and religous views
they find a away to connect them all back to Richard Spencer and the actual white supremacists.

Lewis proposes that YouTube should consider not only reviewing the content of the channels identified in the report, but the people they host and what their guests say.

the trouble with this is that the Guardian itself has given Richard Spencer a platform in the past and just this week The 14th Dalai Lama has run fowl of the SJWs on his opinions about refugees in Europe as has the British Labour party on their anti semitic views

I have even been sent an email saying I should protest to shut down a Lauren Southern talk in Melbourne due to the fact I'm a socialist and regularly attend left wing protests the irony was I was called a racist dog by black clad spiting University students when i actually attended the lecture in a private venue with a Jamaican friend of mine.
My interest was sparked by the comments first read here in CFCOT on the 1000 odd british girls raped and how the police did not intervene because of political correctness and fear of being seen as racist. I didn't believe the claims at the time they sounded racist .... have since read the official reports confirming it and followed the court trails
the biggest irony is that the guardian defends their attack on views that are different from theirs by

The Guardian is editorially independent, meaning we set our own agenda. Our journalism is free from commercial bias and not influenced by billionaire owners, politicians or shareholders. No one edits our Editor. No one steers our opinion. This is important because it enables us to give a voice to the voiceless, challenge the powerful and hold them to account. The Guardian’s editorial independence makes it stand out in a shrinking media landscape, at a time when factual and honest reporting is more critical than ever.

exactly what the people being deplatformed are doing
most of the people listed have already set up other channels on Gab or Minds or b*chute to give a voice to the voiceless, challenge the powerful and hold them to account