Think Salt is most OP of all?

[Magma_Dragoon]

Caravan: 75 hammers (+4 food, base)
Cargo Ship: 100 hammers (+6 food, base)

Trade route yields aren't affected by multipliers

 

[Cromagnus]

Uh, yes they are, and I meant that it goes up as the era changes. TR is part of base food, even the Aztec multiplier affects their yield. Then, all the other +10% etc multipliers are applied to the growth factor. Unless I'm mistaking your meaning?

 

[Storminator]

EDIT: FYI, I firmly believe this is a design flaw on the part of Firaxis. (A long-standing one)

Work boats should be 75 hammers, take 6 turns to improve a tile, and be re-usable. The numbers are off the top of my head. But this is so brain-dead obvious to me, I can't believe they've never made this change. This wouldn't unbalance the game. The risk of losing a work boat to a barbarian while improving the resource would necessitate building a trireme to protect it, which would further prevent work boats from becoming more useful than workers, even if the trouble involved in moving them between cities wasn't enough.

I recently played a game as Japan, and had a Samurai go around and build all my fishing boats. I had a huge sea based empire, and I probably saved 3 or 4 thousand hammers with that one Samurai. Insane how much better it was.

PS

 

[4N4C0ND4]

I recently played a game as Japan, and had a Samurai go around and build all my fishing boats. I had a huge sea based empire, and I probably saved 3 or 4 thousand hammers with that one Samurai. Insane how much better it was.

PS

I am the only one finding ironic that a unit supposed to be a fiercing warrior stomping medieval & early gun powder units alike is actually used as a super worker?

 

[Cromagnus]

It's somewhat historically relevant. But it could apply to any civ. Soldiers during peace time tend to do non-soldiery things.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Work boats should be 75 hammers, take 6 turns to improve a tile, and be re-usable. The numbers are off the top of my head. But this is so brain-dead obvious to me, I can't believe they've never made this change. This wouldn't unbalance the game. The risk of losing a work boat to a barbarian while improving the resource would necessitate building a trireme to protect it, which would further prevent work boats from becoming more useful than workers, even if the trouble involved in moving them between cities wasn't enough.

It would be easier if fishing tech just gave workers the ability to move over water within cultural borders.

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

Uh, yes they are, and I meant that it goes up as the era changes. TR is part of base food, even the Aztec multiplier affects their yield. Then, all the other +10% etc multipliers are applied to the growth factor. Unless I'm mistaking your meaning?

Hmm, I know it isn't for hammers, surprising it is for food

 

[Cromagnus]

Hmm I thought it applied to hammers too. Now I have to go check.

 

[Laurwin]

Often times in continents and continents plus mapscripts, you get very nice sea resource starts on isolated islands and small continents.

I've actually had some cities like that, on small continents with important resources (Uranium, oil)

My best city had about 8 workable fish, with maybe half of workable tiles being land tiles, with 1 workable uranium, 1 workable iron.

I renamed the city, "Fish Island". It was excellent ship production city.

 

[Justice1337]

As far as BNW is concerned, tile-gold almost does not exist, or it counts for a very small fraction of your income. Trade routes pretty much make all gold luxes a lot less valuable.

Luxuries - 7-8 GPT, whether upfront or over 30 turns. Probably 4 in your capital, an average of maybe 1.5 in each second city. So about 50 GPT total on 3 cities? From about Turn 60?

Trade Routes - How long does it take to get 50 GPT total from TR's? I'm on Turn 130 now of my current Diety game, 4 TR slots, and my most profitable TR by sea is 10GPT. My top 4 routes give me about 30'ish Gold total. Next TR unlocked is at Banking. Not to mention that right now I'm using them for internal Food/Hammers.

Tile Yield - I'm at 30 GPT total right now in Capital, with +1 from Market, whatever I have from Palace. All other Gold is generated on tiles. I've got 3 Copper Mines that would be +2G if they were Gold/Silver instead and I had a Mint. (They would also be +1 Culture w/ Religious Idols instead of Earth Mother). So, 3 times 2 times 1.25 from multipliers - about 8 more on tiles with Gold/Silver instead of the standard 2g Copper. That's also 9 more Gold on tiles and about 12 more GPT after modifiers than Salt. That's probably 2TR's worth, not dependent on peace. Now instead, Salt has +3F, -1H on its tile. Over 3 resources, that's 9f, -3h, or 6 total net. Is that two Trade Routes worth? Because if I have 9 extra Gold on tiles with modifiers that increase throughout the game, I can now run that many more ITR's. Right away, I get Food first from Salt and Gold first from Mining luxes, but allocated over the game, that big of a Gold difference on tiles shows up. And taken over the long of the game, the 7 total yield of 3h/4g outweighs the 6 total yield of 3f/2h/1g. I would take either over yields of 5, and there is some advantage to getting Food first, but I don't think Salt is clearly better.

 

[Cromagnus]

Luxuries - 7-8 GPT, whether upfront or over 30 turns. Probably 4 in your capital, an average of maybe 1.5 in each second city. So about 50 GPT total on 3 cities? From about Turn 60?

Trade Routes - How long does it take to get 50 GPT total from TR's? I'm on Turn 130 now of my current Diety game, 4 TR slots, and my most profitable TR by sea is 10GPT. My top 4 routes give me about 30'ish Gold total. Next TR unlocked is at Banking. Not to mention that right now I'm using them for internal Food/Hammers.

Tile Yield - I'm at 30 GPT total right now in Capital, with +1 from Market, whatever I have from Palace. All other Gold is generated on tiles. I've got 3 Copper Mines that would be +2G if they were Gold/Silver instead and I had a Mint. (They would also be +1 Culture w/ Religious Idols instead of Earth Mother). So, 3 times 2 times 1.25 from multipliers - about 8 more on tiles with Gold/Silver instead of the standard 2g Copper. That's also 9 more Gold on tiles and about 12 more GPT after modifiers than Salt. That's probably 2TR's worth, not dependent on peace. Now instead, Salt has +3F, -1H on its tile. Over 3 resources, that's 9f, -3h, or 6 total net. Is that two Trade Routes worth? Because if I have 9 extra Gold on tiles with modifiers that increase throughout the game, I can now run that many more ITR's. Right away, I get Food first from Salt and Gold first from Mining luxes, but allocated over the game, that big of a Gold difference on tiles shows up. And taken over the long of the game, the 7 total yield of 3h/4g outweighs the 6 total yield of 3f/2h/1g. I would take either over yields of 5, and there is some advantage to getting Food first, but I don't think Salt is clearly better.

I love gold/silver religious idols, don't get me wrong, but early growth is so important that Salt wins in my book for that reason alone. For the first 50+ turns, it's absolutely a *compromise* to work a gold mine. You're sacrificing growth for production. You need two improvements as well, one for your food, one for your hammers.

Working 3-food tiles in the early game that *also give hammers* and *also give gold* is better because the alternative is working 3-food tiles that give *neither*. You need to be working those food tiles... everything is so dependent on growth. Now, of course there are exceptions to the rule, but also, 7g per mine for a traded resource brings the *early game, pre-mint* comparison to 8g vs 10g. Finally, and this is very important: Cultural boundaries are very slow to pick up non-food tiles. You'll get third-tier salt way before third-tier gold unless you plunk down cash, usually a lot. (90 vs 50 for third-tier hill tiles, roughly)

So, the bottom line is: With salt you're growing AND getting good hammers and getting most of the gpt (if you're selling).. now, once you pass turn 50 or so, sure, the advantage of salt is less. Once you hit civil service, it's even less, but, the early turns matter more. IMHO. Especially given the small population of a city. It's *either* production *or* growth for every other resource. That compromise adds a tangible delay. The difference is, I'm working more tiles sooner, without sacrificing production, and as a result, working 2 salt mines gives better total hammers by t50 than if I'd been working one farm and one gold mine, or 2 gold mines, or 2 farms until I had enough pop to work both mines and still grow. In other words, more hammers early, to get cities out faster, to get armies up faster, to get NC or wonders out faster... all are game-changing factors. Gold is just *eventually* great. Salt is *immediately* awesome.

I remember my first successful OCC was a babylon SV, and I happened to have 4-salt, but it was the first time I played with salt. I had trouble duplicating that OCC win for the longest time... until I got salt again, and then did the math. After that, I said, hmm, ok, how do I duplicate the total early food/hammer yield of salt, to get the same snowball effect? Well, nothing really gives that effect. You can steal lots of workers early if you're lucky, that just gives you more 3-food tiles, which is the pre-cursor to more production... But if you get a salt start, and steal lots of workers, you're back to salt being just flat out better. Anecdotal yes, but I can really feel the difference when I play.

 

[Browd]

Uh, yes they are, and I meant that it goes up as the era changes. TR is part of base food, even the Aztec multiplier affects their yield. Then, all the other +10% etc multipliers are applied to the growth factor. Unless I'm mistaking your meaning?

Hmm, I know it isn't for hammers, surprising it is for food

Magma Dragoon is correct about the yield from hammer trade routes not being affected by any city production modifiers (in fact, those hammers appear "below the line" along with the various production modifiers, such as the RR bonus, the 5% from Republic, etc.), but Cromagnus is *slightly* wrong about food trade routes.

The yield from food trade routes is included in the computation of city food surplus, and therefore benefits from percentage "growth" modifiers (and it appears "above the line" with food from terrain, food from buildings, etc.). However, neither the 10% food bonus from Temple of Artemis nor the 15% food bonus from Floating Gardens apply to food from trade routes.

Just double checked this with save files, and am happy to post screenies of the food detail (or you can just believe me .)

 

[Cromagnus]

I believe ya hehe... I thought I'd seen the bonus from floating gardens get applied, in that the total food prior to consumption didn't match the sources, but at the time I had forgotten that ToA is applied to base food. (A lot of the text implies it's a growth bonus so I always forget this)

So I was looking for a flat 15% and thought I saw it, but what I was really seeing was probably (TR*1) + (other*1.25) which could easily masquerade as (tr + other)*1.15...

 

[Justice1337]

Well, I'd certainly say for OCC, Salt performs better in a 300 turn window, sure. You probably want just about every tile to be a Food tile, and you're production limited as well. The ideal OCC is probably multiple Quarries/Iron/Cow/Mining luxes on Grassland, 3x Salt as the primary lux. You just want at least 2 Food on each tile along with all the Production you can get. That's also the ideal Tradition > SV setup for exactly that reason. You're making the best of what the map gave you, Food, and you have enough production there that focusing on that doesn't limit you.

But, Gold/Silver is at its best in other setups. That Capital will have better production at an earlier turn, which is important to wider play, whether under Trad or Liberty. If you can break 14 Production on 5 pop by Turn 40, then you're in terrific shape to build Settlers, and you can't do that without 3h mining luxes. In my experience also, the only time borders won't naturally expand to luxuries, whatever they are, it's because it's a Forested or Jungled Hill. Chopping that Forest/Jungle solves that problem, which probably only affects maybe 1 of the 3 luxuries. I actually think the border growth issue favors Hills luxuries in a way because on those Salt starts the 2 prod per tile on at most 3 tiles is likely most of what you'll have, unless you've got Horses/Iron. Whether on Turn 40 or Turn 80, you will probably be buying Hills tiles on a Salt start, unless you want to wait for the Writer's Guild or have a Religious building. But anyway, that difference of production being available so early is significant, and you're not working Food tiles when building Settlers anyway, even if you're Food negative in that spot. I'd probably want a stronger Capital, this game being what it is, but I don't know.


I guess I'm thinking of it in terms of which is more critical to its own setup, Salt for a Tall OCC Capital or Gold/Silver for Economic/Expansive? Not really delving into which setup is better. But Salt is not the limiting factor on how strong your game is when you go Tall. Meanwhile, Gold/Silver games are pretty far ahead of non-Gold/Silver games where you go expansive. Even the Culture is important for border growth in non-Trad. Almost like those luxes were designed for those games.

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

I did small test of my own and confirmed that. I also learned that to Civ5 thinks that 9+2=12...

 

[direblade99]

I don't agree that the pantheon makes fishing boats better than salt, however I do think that it still can be very powerful. I'm currently playing through a game as carthage where on the first roll I had a start with a whopping 5 sea resources and a mountain (there was no river and it was jungle, but still it was insane). I had 9 population with +20 production at turn 50, was ridiculous.

 

[kb27787]

Luxuries - 7-8 GPT, whether upfront or over 30 turns. Probably 4 in your capital, an average of maybe 1.5 in each second city. So about 50 GPT total on 3 cities? From about Turn 60?

Trade Routes - How long does it take to get 50 GPT total from TR's? I'm on Turn 130 now of my current Diety game, 4 TR slots, and my most profitable TR by sea is 10GPT. My top 4 routes give me about 30'ish Gold total. Next TR unlocked is at Banking. Not to mention that right now I'm using them for internal Food/Hammers.

Tile Yield - I'm at 30 GPT total right now in Capital, with +1 from Market, whatever I have from Palace. All other Gold is generated on tiles. I've got 3 Copper Mines that would be +2G if they were Gold/Silver instead and I had a Mint. (They would also be +1 Culture w/ Religious Idols instead of Earth Mother). So, 3 times 2 times 1.25 from multipliers - about 8 more on tiles with Gold/Silver instead of the standard 2g Copper. That's also 9 more Gold on tiles and about 12 more GPT after modifiers than Salt. That's probably 2TR's worth, not dependent on peace. Now instead, Salt has +3F, -1H on its tile. Over 3 resources, that's 9f, -3h, or 6 total net. Is that two Trade Routes worth? Because if I have 9 extra Gold on tiles with modifiers that increase throughout the game, I can now run that many more ITR's. Right away, I get Food first from Salt and Gold first from Mining luxes, but allocated over the game, that big of a Gold difference on tiles shows up. And taken over the long of the game, the 7 total yield of 3h/4g outweighs the 6 total yield of 3f/2h/1g. I would take either over yields of 5, and there is some advantage to getting Food first, but I don't think Salt is clearly better.

Of course luxes can be sold (but any lux is worth 240 gold and I'd rather have luxes that give food like citrus or salt or whales/crabs); what I said is that +2gold luxes like spice or truffles (and improving them only gives a single point gold more) are almost useless when worked, or at least, not as good as the others.

So by terrain gold I meant gold gained from working terrain; THAT is almost useless. Especially since TR gold also scales on city size so food is actually producing gold for you passively. No deity player in their right mind would take 3h4g over 3f2h1g... (and requiring a mint); and it's not like you can afford to work that many mines early to midgame anyway if you want to grow.
(and I'm sure a single sea TR at t130 gives more than 10 gold at least... sometimes close to 20 if you didn't forget to get a harbor), and don't forget that you also gain gold from other civ's TRs if you make your trade cities big and attractive without having to send a TR out yourself.

 

[Foamfollower]

I did small test of my own and confirmed that. I also learned that to Civ5 thinks that 9+2=12...

internally it uses fractions, but when displaying all fractions are omitted: e.g. 9.8 + 2.8 = 12.6

 

[tommynt]

I do think fish and sea res are fine as they are.

There is nothing wrong with some mechanics/tiles beeing different as others - while for example a rivered wheat gives a great "right away boost", u need invest something for fishes - but in end u get something better.

Games needs be a game of choises!

Atm its a decent choise wheater to go for inland cities which get themself started fast or go for coastal ones which will need some time to develop themself but in end are great with superfish tiles and super grow boosted by ships.

 

[Justice1337]

Of course luxes can be sold (but any lux is worth 240 gold and I'd rather have luxes that give food like citrus or salt or whales/crabs); what I said is that +2gold luxes like spice or truffles (and improving them only gives a single point gold more) are almost useless when worked, or at least, not as good as the others.

So by terrain gold I meant gold gained from working terrain; THAT is almost useless. Especially since TR gold also scales on city size so food is actually producing gold for you passively. No deity player in their right mind would take 3h4g over 3f2h1g... (and requiring a mint); and it's not like you can afford to work that many mines early to midgame anyway if you want to grow.
(and I'm sure a single sea TR at t130 gives more than 10 gold at least... sometimes close to 20 if you didn't forget to get a harbor), and don't forget that you also gain gold from other civ's TRs if you make your trade cities big and attractive without having to send a TR out yourself.

Well, the comment was that Gold on tiles matters little because of TR's, on which I did a little rundown to show that TR's aren't actually producing a very big fraction of your total Gold. How you manage Happiness and Luxuries is the biggest piece early game, and obviously any Luxury is sold for the same price. But the rationale that Gold doesn't matter because TR's exist just isn't giving Gold enough credit.

I'm just showing that what Gold you have on tiles is not only vastly different from Salt to Gold Silver, but also that after it's multiplied it's even bigger, and that amount can be compared in opportunity cost to ITR's versus Outgoing Routes. And the way I'm seeing it, there's slightly more Gold there than an ITR's worth of Food, precisely because you're comparing Yield 6 to Yield 7.