This is blasphemy, this is madness

[Kyriakos]

Maybe we could discuss the origins of the idea of blasphemy.

The word comes from the verb phemo, which means to repute. Interestingly later on in christianity, the greek term for the jewish "satan" became "diabolos" which again means to spread lies about someone, essentially damaging their reputation (in the eyes of god).

The english meaning of blasphemy is the commitment of some action, or the utterance of words, which damage or try to damage the sanctity of god or divine objects. A blasphemous person could curse god, or could act in a fashion which is seen as a metaphorical curse on god.

On madness and blasphemy there is the known great Drama of Euripedes, titled The Bachai. There the ruler of a greek town, named Pentheas, goes against the will of the asian-born god Dionysus. Dionysus takes his revenge by maddening the people with wine and mysteries, in the end forcing Pentheas' own mother to carry her son's head on the edge of a pike, without being aware of what she is doing.

So blasphemy is often punished with madness. It can be seen in a verse of Baudelaire's poem about Jesus Christ (Baudelaire had his own tendancy to be christian) where a philosopher and poet becomes mad the moment he views god as a stepping-stone to something higher; as a means of his own personal fame.

So, what are your own thoughts on what blasphemy is, and its possible relation to madness? Should it be seen as a term that has become vacant of meaning, with the demise of the notion of sin? Or is it linguistically still an interesting term, which carries its own energies?

 

[Berzerker]

god damn

thats my usual curse phrase, but I'm not asking for God to be damned, just for the thing pissing me off to be damned by God - and of course I dont really mean it, I'd have to believe God is awaiting my every moment of anger to damn whatever needs to be damned.

as for blasphemy, its BS dreamt up by the easily offended defenders of the faith to accuse people for not falling in line. Why do this or that? Because God said so! Keep using that "justification" to order people around and eventually somebody's gonna tell God to stick it.

 

[stormerne]

I'm not convinced that the example of Pentheas is blasphemy by any modern definition. It seems to me that blasphemy is a monotheist phenomenon, specifically in Abrahamic religions. It was (and is) fairly common in polytheist religions to like one god or goddess and at the same time have a less favorable view of another, even in the same pantheon. This was (and is) regarded as normal, not blasphemy.

One likes to encourage mutual respect between religions - although this is hard when followers of one religion claim another religion to be false. One side may believe they're doing the right thing and the other may feel outrage. On the other hand, one may be tempted to ask why they would believe an omnipotent deity could be so fragile as to care.

It seems to me that the accusation of blasphemy stems either from insecurity (in one's belief), or from arrogance (about one's belief). In other words, it comes from human weakness. And it would seem to show at least as great a weakness in the accuser as the accused.

 

[Borachio]

This is very interesting. So if I swear I should get a headache? Does this explain my migraine. Or am I just stressed.

The intoleration of one religion by another seems very strange to me. Is there a deeper reason for it, than somebody just rationalizing their position after having taken a particular stance at random? I am sorry I have become a little muddled in my thinking at this stage. Perhaps I have been swearing too much.

 

[timtofly]

I would say that the Jews, or more so those practicing Judaism to the letter, use the term blasphemy and adhere to it, because that is part of the the first 3 commandments. Kind of hard to ignore that.

To the extent that it still holds that firm of acceptance in Christianity, blasphemy against God is forgivable by God, just as offering a sacrifice daily would absolve one from the law. Blasphemy against the Spirit of God is a totally different matter. Both drive people mad, but the latter is irrevocable.

BTW, breaking this commandment over and over will not bring down dire wrath instantly nor shorten one's life. One will be held accountable, but for a long life honoring one's parents is the key. There may be acceptions to the rule: Herod Agrippa and Nebuchadnezzar II, although either are debatable, but interesting to look at depending on one's perspective. In both cases the "mind" was the first thing to go. I am not saying that they were wicked men, they both had their good and bad moments just like any other human.

 

[Borachio]

Can you define the Holy Spirit?

 

[timtofly]

The Nicene Creed states there is one God, His Son, and The Holy Ghost/Spirit. It is the metaphysical representation of God on earth. It may be the wisdom that the ancients talked about.

 

[Berzerker]

holy trinities go back to the sumerians - An, Enlil and Ea

 

[timtofly]

holy trinities go back to the sumerians - An, Enlil and Ea

Wasn't Abraham from there?

 

[plarq]

Thought crime.

 

[Lord Gay]

Blasphemy is just an attempt by religions to force people to respect them. They want to prevent people from criticizing them to prevent people from exposing the flaws in their ideologies.

To me, blasphemy is a demand for special rights on the level of children. "I get to call you a poopy-head but don't you DARE call me one!" If religion is going to criticize others, they are subject to the same in return. Tit for tat. Blasphemy threatens free speech, and I oppose it.

Now, getting off my high horse for a moment, it's a fact that people don't like to be insulted. It's certainly understandable that religious people don't like hearing their beliefs slandered, mocked, or disparaged. The thing is, this applies to everybody, not just theists. NOBODY likes to hear themselves or things they hold dear, put down. So if we're going to say it's horrible to say bad things about religion, then to be fair, we have to apply that to most everything, which means, nobody will be able to speak at all.

Getting back on my horse, I think it's disgusting that people feel fines (Ireland) or violence (Islam) are justified when people speak ill of them, while they then turn around and speak ill of others. Screw you double standards !

In re any relation to madness, there isn't any. Divinity isn't real, so divine afflictions of madness for speaking ill of religions is obvious fear-mongering.

 

[Kyriakos]

I would think that although in normal circumstances (normal regarded the state in which a person does not accept blasphemy as something real) blasphemy cannot lead to madness, in special circumstances, such as those briefly mentioned in relation to Baudelaire's poem, it can very well be the outcome of an episode of mental disorder. Imagine a person who fears a god, and fears being blasphemous. But he is at some point. It is only logical to expect that now he will fear retaliation, and this can lead to great mental strain.

 

[Lord Gay]

IF you assume a higher power is real and IF you believe that power feels strongly about certain issues, then mental strain will occur on a variety of issues, not just blasphemy. One need merely look around to see religious people who do crazy things because they believe their power commands it.

People who will kill their children, or let their children die. People who will kill others, people who will light themselves on fire... crazy beliefs are more likely to lead to crazy actions. Crazy in, crazy out.

 

[Kyriakos]

Certainly i agree that there is heavy dependence of the idea of blasphemy, on various theologic concepts and beliefs. That said i would not go as far as to say that it exists due to those. Rather it acquires a form and a dynamic due to the existence of those, in a specific way. But deeper down it is another mental power (dangerous trips of thought) and to feel afraid due to being blasphemous is only on the surface something related to religion.

I think that it is a pattern, like any other mental phenomenon. If the pattern exists on plane A, it will assume the variables found in A. If it gets examined in plane B, below A, it will assume different variables, and so on. The fundamental phenomenon, though, are the connections between the objects themselves, and not the actual objects, which vary depending on your world of conscience and its particular dynamics.

 

[NedimNapoleon]

NO This is sparta

 

[Kyriakos]

Well yes, i tried to incorporate that infamous joke there

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

I think you'll note that, for any given religion, there's usually a vast swath of the Earth where the people there live relatively free of it. Perhaps a minority population exists within the whole, but the religion itself is not dominant.

Now, this means that, for any given religion, there are literally billions of people who don't practice it and follow it, and aren't pressured to respect it in any way. And within that group, there's got to be millions upon millions who don't even begin to "respect" its core tenets, beliefs, cultural traditions, or gods. Saying things about the religion, such as... it's probably fiction. The god(s) isn't or aren't real. It's ludicrous, etc.

As such, for any given religion, there are always millions of blasphemers, just living out their lives. And they do not seem to get particularly smited.

I've also seen that pretty much every major religion gets a healthy dose of the supposed wrath of god. Simply being christian, jewish, muslim, atheist, whatever the case may be, does not spare one from wars, poverty, famine, earthquakes, or fascist overlords. So there's neither a curse for being blasphemous nor a good luck charm for choosing the correct religion, if there is one.

I don't know why people believe that any one religion is especially protected by an omnipotent superbeing, when it's clear that we're all on this spinning rock together, all suffering, and most of our ideas are all equally ridiculous.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Blasphemy is just an attempt by religions to force people to respect them. They want to prevent people from criticizing them to prevent people from exposing the flaws in their ideologies.

To me, blasphemy is a demand for special rights on the level of children. "I get to call you a poopy-head but don't you DARE call me one!" If religion is going to criticize others, they are subject to the same in return. Tit for tat. Blasphemy threatens free speech, and I oppose it.

Now, getting off my high horse for a moment, it's a fact that people don't like to be insulted. It's certainly understandable that religious people don't like hearing their beliefs slandered, mocked, or disparaged. The thing is, this applies to everybody, not just theists. NOBODY likes to hear themselves or things they hold dear, put down. So if we're going to say it's horrible to say bad things about religion, then to be fair, we have to apply that to most everything, which means, nobody will be able to speak at all.

Getting back on my horse, I think it's disgusting that people feel fines (Ireland) or violence (Islam) are justified when people speak ill of them, while they then turn around and speak ill of others. Screw you double standards !

In re any relation to madness, there isn't any. Divinity isn't real, so divine afflictions of madness for speaking ill of religions is obvious fear-mongering.

I think you'll note that, for any given religion, there's usually a vast swath of the Earth where the people there live relatively free of it. Perhaps a minority population exists within the whole, but the religion itself is not dominant.

Now, this means that, for any given religion, there are literally billions of people who don't practice it and follow it, and aren't pressured to respect it in any way. And within that group, there's got to be millions upon millions who don't even begin to "respect" its core tenets, beliefs, cultural traditions, or gods. Saying things about the religion, such as... it's probably fiction. The god(s) isn't or aren't real. It's ludicrous, etc.

As such, for any given religion, there are always millions of blasphemers, just living out their lives. And they do not seem to get particularly smited.

I've also seen that pretty much every major religion gets a healthy dose of the supposed wrath of god. Simply being christian, jewish, muslim, atheist, whatever the case may be, does not spare one from wars, poverty, famine, earthquakes, or fascist overlords. So there's neither a curse for being blasphemous nor a good luck charm for choosing the correct religion, if there is one.

I don't know why people believe that any one religion is especially protected by an omnipotent superbeing, when it's clear that we're all on this spinning rock together, all suffering, and most of our ideas are all equally ridiculous.

I should point out that in Christianity criticizing the religion isn't necessarily "Blasphemy." I would say its blasphemy if you're purposely trying to insult the Christian job, or saying false things about him, but simply not believing he exists... not really blasphemy per say. At least if that position comes from ignorance of said God, rather than purposely trying to tell people he doesn't exist even though you believe he does.

 

[Lord Gay]

I should point out that in Christianity criticizing the religion isn't necessarily "Blasphemy." I would say its blasphemy if you're purposely trying to insult the Christian job,

Christian job? Do you mean god?

I would argue different regions have different definitions of blasphemy for the same religion. Interpretation and context leave a LOT of room for misunderstanding.

At least if that position comes from ignorance of said God, rather than purposely trying to tell people he doesn't exist even though you believe he does.

Who is doing this? Are there people believing in gods and then telling others they don't exist?

 

[GhostWriter16]

Christian job? Do you mean god?

Yeah, sorry

I would argue different regions have different definitions of blasphemy for the same religion. Interpretation and context leave a LOT of room for misunderstanding.

You'd be right. In my mind, if you attribute something falsely to our God, whether you believe in him or not, (Assuming you are in some sense aware of its falseness, I'm not talking about a genuine mistake, I'm talking about purposely defamement) that's a form of blasphemy (Though not the unforgivable one, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit requires COMPLETE knowledge and so probably can't happen today.)

Who is doing this? Are there people believing in gods and then telling others they don't exist?

I think theistic Satanists (Satanists who actually worship Satanism, rather than that generic pleasure-seeking thing that is Atheistic Satanism) are absolutely doing this, but that's not really the only definition.... Its something that you need to determine case by case.

By far the most common method of blasphemy is making a mockery of God, genuinely not believing in him does not intristically do this.

However, you are also blaspheming if you are in denial of what you deep down know is true.