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Thoughts on this comment

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by blunderwonder, Nov 29, 2012.

  1. blunderwonder

    blunderwonder Prince

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    the zx zero zx guy said this, and im curious.... i find myself wondering what i play...


    i tend to prioritize pottery in the tech tree, especially if i have food plains. If i have plenty of workers, i throw up cottages in almost every city except ones i have plans for like a gp farm or a production city. More often than not though, i cottage the crap out of cities, and it seems to work ok...

    especially when im founding cities just to gain % land, or a resource, the cottages seem like the only thing to do in certain situations as workshops are not available yet, and would suck even if they were available. so jungle areas with gems and no food resources always get cottaged, and i dont feel like an idiot when i do it, but perhaps i dont understand his comment...

    my point is, the vast majority of my worked tiles are cottages, unless its a city with plains hills, or lots of food resources, it generally becomes a cottaged town.

    caste system comes to late, by that time im already winning, and you dont need to run a specialist economy to get great ppl, also... needing the mids is sort of a gamble.


    thoughts?


    I just want to reiterate though.... I feel like if most towns are working 4 or 5 cottages each.... then its a cottage economy, even if i pump out 15 gp's before 1700ad, if most of my cities are cottaged, i find it hard to call it a hybrid economy.

    also im not sure if i understand what a hammer economy is, unless he means constantly setting production to research or wealth
     
  2. cseanny

    cseanny Emperor

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    I don't agree with either one of you guys lol. In regards to Zero, more often than not the general basis of his statement seems to be true but PLAY THE MAP. Their are plenty of times I find myself with literally zero cottages and work more food, to include irrigated farms, and a bit of hammers. I consider this a FE/SE type of economy, not a hybrid. And on the flip side, sometimes the map, especially if I'm a financial leader screams cottage every thing......the hills, the plains, the regular grasslands, etc. But in general I find myself in the basic agreement that hybrids and hammer economies tend to produce better results, as do liberal whipping. I do not agree with CRAP CRAP statements lol.

    As to your preferences and statements. Imo caste comes early, not late, and in most of my games I generally have a cottaged Bureau Capital and not too many cottages outside of that. You use your big Capital to power research, then you time GAs to switch civics and generate some GP. The norm for this is somewhere in the 1AD - 200AD range at which point I like to stay in Mon/Bureau/Caste/Philo until I've reached Liberalism. Your GPF is still netting some key GP while I have transitioned most of my other cities to ws for better production.

    Staying in caste is great!, and comes early! More GPP and better hammer yields from ws'.
     
  3. blunderwonder

    blunderwonder Prince

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    I have trouble understanding how a cottage on a 2F plot is a bad idea...

    thats my point. call it whatever you want SE/CE/ FE?

    idk what all that is, but 6 coins on one plot is nice doesnt matter what city its in.

    I just take issue with people saying that a cottage economy is awful, not because im pro at this game but, aside from running 5 scientists and caste in every city, theres no way to compete with cottages unless you were lucky enough to land 5 gold mines in every city.

    i think what im having trouble with is terminology, cause i only see it 2 or 3 ways, you either run a SE, a CE, or some sort of trading game with GLH and colossus etc. Im not sure how else to split it. cottages are the only really viable way to get beakers and pay for upkeep. Its hard for me to imagine anything that isnt a CE.


    and as for the let one city do all your researching, ive never been able to make that work properly. late in the game one city might be spitting out 350 beakers a turn, but by then the game is set anyway, i typically have about 1/3 of my cities that do nothing but produce gold/beakers, maybe 1/3 that produce units/wonders, and the other 1/3 filling in gaps
     
  4. Patchface

    Patchface Warlord

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    I don't know what is best but AbsoluteZero has won a bunch of deity let's plays on y outube using the CE
     
  5. blunderwonder

    blunderwonder Prince

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    i havnt watched many youtubes, and im not trying to knock anyones playing style. Its just the way I understand it, most "economys" are cottage economys.

    theyre just specialized for whatever need, be it a bunch of coastal island cities, or lots of war production etc etc, if you have 6 fish plots, then clearly thats a good spot for tons of specialists. Im just saying that cottages seem more like the rule than the exception
     
  6. damerell

    damerell Slow Worker

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    You can only do it when you can find the Shift key; but what I understand the hammer economy to mean is to develop the tiles around each city to maximise the city's total supply of hammers, not forgetting that one can turn food into hammers. Z^3, I suspect, would then advocate using those hammers to build not research or wealth but military units.
     
  7. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    AZ once said something to the extent of "I don't know what kind of economy i run, it's just an economy."

    His is definitely more of an hybrid approach. I think the only time I've ever seen him build a cottage outside of his capitol was when he was intending to move it to the cottaged city later.
     
  8. FlyinJohnnyL

    FlyinJohnnyL You need more workers....

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    I'll cottage up my capital, and just build farms, mines, and maybe workshops pretty much everywhere else (save for resources that I need.) My cap does all the heavy lifting for research. The rest of the cities get a granary, barracks, maybe a forge and a theatre. Then they always build either units or wealth, and when I hit a good military tech, I can whip, whip, whip.

    This has served me well. I used to spam cottages, and it served me well, too, but I win much quicker this way. I may have to go back to cottage spam just to do a little modern warfare.
     
  9. Htadus

    Htadus A and L's dad

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    Yes that is what he is referring to. However his abstract comment (if that the whole of it) is missing a lot of info such as how useful cottages are to get to the said hammer economy is. Basically any well placed cottage will get you to the needed techs (MC, Guild, Chem as well as CoL to run CS) faster. But then again having a couple of cities converting hammers to wealth will allow a higher science slider which in turn get the most out of those darn cottages. Yeah I build cottages but then in some games when the city using the cottage has a forge, factory and a power plant, I send in the bulldozer to wipe it out and build a workshop. Sad but true. :eek:

    Keep in mind that a cottage take 70 turns (I may be off about this number) to become a town. The growth rate is slow with just 2 food surplus and it become even worst if you need to work a mined hill. So it take time to grow and develop cottages and build libs, unis and Obs. On the other hand a late game city with a granary working bunch of farms can grow to its happy max of say 12-15 pop rather rapidly and then convert just the right number of tiles to mines or workshops. With all those hammers it takes very little amount of time to get forges, factories and PP up and running. Now you can build anything you want. And the hammer multiplier is 2. It is better than the typical science multiplier of 1.75 you can get for most of the game. Labs come too late even for a space game. And...... there are many and but I am out of time. Happy civving.
     
  10. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    You use the hammers to build wealth or research when pushing towards key techs, and then build military units once you get there. It's nice because it requires little to no investment in buildings, there's no ramp up time like with cottages, and the cities are already set up for strong production and whipping once you get there. Grassland cottages are terrible for production as they provide no hammers at all (unless you are running US later in the game), and are only food neutral which slows regrowth after whipping.

    This won't make a stellar economy on it's own though. It's still nice to have a strong bureau capitol to drive research, along with some GP for key bulbs.
     
  11. blunderwonder

    blunderwonder Prince

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    I think it was just the terminology ce/se/fe or w/e that was bugging me.

    ive been winning pretty consistently on emperor, and its sort of lost the challenge but if i step up to immortal ill probably just be really frustrated so ima stick it out for awhile.

    His comment was just bothering me because say i have 15 cities, and i capture #16, and its pop 10, sitting on a big flat grassland. ill cottage spam it and forget about it, while i either fix my wrecked economy or wait for the next opportunity to gain more land.


    /e i often build wealth and research, but more often its to get ahead than to catch up, i may give that a try soon, only cottage capital and use every city for production, but i figure either ill crash by 1500 ad or have won.
     
  12. Kaosprophet

    Kaosprophet Warlord

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    Opportunity cost.

    With an ideal site for a (later) Beuracracy-powered capital, the overall contribution of that cottage is generally less than what it would have been as a farm or workshop. This doesn't mean it *sucks,* only that it (often, not always) could have been better. Of course, much of it depends on what your long and short term goals are - and what the map size is.
    Of course, some take the view of "anything less than the best = suck."

    If I've already got plenty of coins coming from elsewhere, then 6 more coins isn't as valuable as the hammers I might have got from either whipping off farms or using them to feed more mines/workshops. Especially when you consider the amount of time that plot spent only providing 1,2 or 3 coins.

    OTOH, if I'm starving for commerce, then that cottage is not a bad idea. This is where the CE/SE terminology traps people, though; they look at what they think the overall economy they should be running is and build to that instead of what the map/situation/future-plans would suggest should be built.

    This might be stemming from map-size or victory condition concerns. On a standard map, focused on the Liberalism->Cuirassiers->Domination victory path one city doing most of the heavy lifting with spot support from Great Scientists bulbing key techs is often all the research you need; after that, what you want is more hammers to build more troops to end the game faster.
    For larger maps, or a VC that comes further down the tech tree, that might not work so well.
     
  13. blunderwonder

    blunderwonder Prince

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    thanks that cleared some stuff up


    it seems that i can never have enough coins though :p


    after i finish my current game im gonna go ahead and try to do that though, 1 cottaged city and the rest production cities. I hate workshops though... they never seem to be worthwhile until chem or at least guilds.
     
  14. VoiceOfUnreason

    VoiceOfUnreason Deity

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    If you play a game centered around optimizing your cottages, your workshops are going to suck.

    Instead, try looking at what happens when you prioritize making workshops awesome.

    Hint: Guilds isn't nearly so far away when you prioritize it.
     
  15. FlyinJohnnyL

    FlyinJohnnyL You need more workers....

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    Early in my civ playing days I didn't realize the strength of workshops. Then one day I got into a war with Caesar, took Rome, and my eyes bugged out when I saw that the entire thing was workshopped, and had WAY more hammers coming in than any city I had ever designed. It looked like a city full of grassland hills. Then later in the game, when I got to SP...holy moly. That was an awesome city.

    The only thing I hate about WS is that I tend to stay in slavery, so I don't use them much unless I'm spiritual. In that case, I'll spam them.
     
  16. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    State Property workshops and watermills are awesome. Prior to that, however, it's really just better to use the whip if you are warring.
     
  17. NetGear

    NetGear King

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    Problem with cottage is that they grow so slow. It definitely helps if you're financial cause any tiles that are 2c immediately outputs 3c. Which makes green rivers so good. It also helps if you are tile swapping with satellite cities helping your mega bureau cap.

    If you're playing the ce centric approach, you're gonna make a major break through nicely timed in when you've won lib, got democracy and rifles/cannon period. But food/se centric would have sacrificed that boom for earlier more aggressive play. And the rep/bio boom that follows isn't as bad either.
     
  18. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    You need chemistry too, or state property. Getting there without cottages or few of them quickly takes a quite solid understanding of all options.

    If drafting weren't so string id use them more. Add it is one usually winds.up suicide whipping or drafting for war.
     
  19. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

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    ZZZ is a good player and has his opinion as to the best economic model. Other good players have different opinions. Afaik no consensus has been reached.
     
  20. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    SE and CE (hammer economy/religious economy/barb city economy etc. etc.) are now archaic terms that are mostly useful as a matter of pedagogy. Their implementation in practice is rather flawed. Consider the following from the (2011) 'Advanced Guide to the Specialist Economy.'

    Source: http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/se_emperor.php

    This isn't a good way to play. Building the Hagia Sophia for GE points is counterproductive. There is no way that settling 8 super-priests outside of your capital is stronger than bulbing your way to Lib.

    What the terms 'SE' and 'CE' have going for them is that they introduce the beginning player to the idea of specialization, that no city in Civ IV can be a jack-of-all trades.

    A player's development then usually goes something like follows:

    1) Beginning. Lots of farms. Improvements built on a whim. Lots and lots of roads.
    2) Cottage Economy. Probably with a Financial leader. It's easy to understand. Cottage en masse. Reap the benefits in the ADs.
    3) Specialist Economy. You've read a few articles about Specialists, but want to use these more effectively. The system is a little harder to understand, but you start to beeline Masonry, build the Mids, and settle Specialists. With a Philosopical leader, you begin to see what the fuss is all about.
    4) Hybrid Economy: lower levels. You know how Cottages and Specialists function. You begin to specialize one (or two) GP farms. You cottage elsewhere.
    5) Hybrid Economy: higher levels. You continue to nuance the above. At higher levels, this means fewer Cottages, more Farms, and greater use of the whip. Several cities work the Cottages in the capital's BFC. You understand how, when, and why to build Windmills/Watermills/Workshops. You understand that building Wealth while working a Mined Hill is, after a certain point, preferable to growing a Cottage.
    6) Nirvana. (Not really.)

    cseanny speaks a lot of sense, as usual. Play the map and the hand that you have drawn. As a rule, your capital should be cottaged. Other sites should be cottaged more sparingly: it is more important to whip infrastructure and units, which limits the number of tiles that can be worked at one time. Financial leaders benefit more from Cottages, but it is still a mistake to cottage every site. Scientists and Merchants should not, on the higher levels, be settled, except in a few special cases. You will either gain more beakers through judicious trading of a bulbed tech, or a greater advantage by powering your way through the mid-game tech tree before going to war.
     

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