Time for leaders to go

I would be fine with having Leader and Leader abilities work just like Governors. I would make Leaders and Governors share promotions because I think it would help alleviate the problem @ShakaKhan points out. If a Leader doesn't have early abilities you can promote governors instead. That also means you could give players the option of choosing a new Leader at the cost of loosing the promotions the old one had.
Interesting. I like how you combined two rather divergent opinions and think you're on to something. I would like to see the implementation go a different direction though...

First, some preamble on my thoughts on leaders and governors. I have no problem with the immortal leader suspension-of-disbelief, but I think the impact of leaders could use some retooling - the fact that the civilization grants three abilities to your game whereas the leader provides one seems to make the leader less important than the civilization of choice. Also, when you look at the initial release, it seemed that they wanted to provide the "player choices," meaning the combination of civilization/leader that they chose, have 4 abilities/bonuses and it was not really important whether the bonus came from the leader or the civilization. Some "player choices" had two strong bonuses and two weak ones, and whether it was two strong civilization abilities or one strong civilization ability and one strong leader ability didn't really matter. The litmus test for this was Greece, the only civilization that had two leaders upon release, and I will admit that Gorgo and Pericles had very different bonuses that did lend themselves better to different styles of play, but still, if you were playing Greece, your strategy was to utilize the extra wildcard slot {which can be leveraged any way you wanted, really one of the best general bonuses to get) along with a decent and very early UU, with the other two bonuses, regardless of which leader you chose, benefiting culture, which gave them an inclination towards that victory regardless of which leader you chose. Now Eleanora did show us how having a leader for two different civilizations is implemented quite differently. As for governors...

...With Rise and Fall, governors had bonuses that, for the most part, only affected the city that they were governing in. While you can move them around, you lost some efficiency of the governor when doing so as it takes some turns for them to relocate. The fact that they only affected the city that they were in, to me, seemed to be a move towards making tall empires more of a viable choice. The problem with that is that whether your civilization had 4 cities or 30, you ended up with the same amount of governors (well, governor promotions.) And while the immortal leader suspension-of-disbelief didn't bother me, it does bother me a little with governors, as there are 5 civilizations in the world, and among them, there's a Chinese Pingala, a Korean Pingala, a Roman Pingala, and an American Pingala. And then there's a Korean Magnus, a Roman Magnus, and a Mongolian Magnus... And so on.

So back to my preference in how to implement your idea. Rather than having leaders and governors continue as two separate game mechanics where they share promotions, and having early civs developing their leaders while more modern civs focus on their governors, I would combine the two mechanics - basically instead of leaders giving a bonus that impacts your whole civilization (and being only 1/4 of the civ-wide bonuses that your civilization/leader choice grants you) while governors provide significant bonuses but only to the city that they are in... instead of that I'm proposing instead of having seperate game mechanics of leaders and governors you have a shared game mechanic of a leader and his cabinet. For the leader bonuses, go back to the best entry in the franchise, civ4, where they give a combination of 2 out of 10 (or 3 out of 10, keep things progressive) traits that each are strong in their own right and yet are utilized differently based on how they synergize with each other. and you can continue to promote/develop this leader to have more pronounced advantages with those three traits...OR... in lieu of developing this leader to reach his/her full potential, you could add more members to the cabinet of the leader (we'll call them senators for now) and there are 4 or 5 categories of possible senators to fill your cabinet with, each category containing several options that are mutually exclusive. For example, from one category you could chose one of four senators, one that gives bonuses to hilly/mountainous cities, one that gives bonuses to flatland/hilly cities, one that gives bonuses to coastal cities, and one that gives bonuses to desert and tundra cities. Another category of senators would have one that gives moderate combat bonuses, one that gives moderate economic bonuses, one that gives weaker research bonuses, and one that gives moderate culture and religious bonuses. And possibly the most important category of senators is the one that the game uses as an "equalizer" for the other game mechanics it introduces. You have one senator category that has two choices - one senator that maximizes the advantages of a tall empire, and the other senator choice that maximizes the advantages of a wide empire. And as time progresses, the DLC changes the advatages so that if this new game plays like Civ5, where tall empires are clearly better than wide empires, the "tall governor" has less powerful advantages while the "wide governor" gets more potent advantages, and vice-versa if the game seems to be more like civ6 where wide empires are better than tall ones.
 
As others said, Leaders are a way for me to identify with a civilization. Games that don’t have them need other ways to add personality to their civs. In many Paradox games, you have a real world map, so can identifies with known countries. Without a way to identify, 4x games just become a „numbers filling“ game to me. This is also the reason why I don’t like Stellaris, where you have generic leaders and a generic map.
 
I prefer the current usage of leaders. I view them as playing against a certain player. I like the character they provide.

I would rather civ not go down the generic ruler #10 route, or the select a random leader every so often. and as someone pointed out, early game years per turn is different from late game which would lead to issues.
 
I think the differentiation should go even further than it currently does. Elizabeth's England isn't the same as Victoria's England, and as far as I'm concerned, both could be treated as entirely separate entities.
 
And the leaders are not generic when theyd be the exact, literally the exact same, leaders youre getting now. Your leader would be Cleopatra not generic question mark leader.

I disagree the distinctness of the civs is crucial. Again, civ is about rewriting and changing. Its about making it your own. America doesnt always get the statue of liberty wonder in every game cause its theirs. Civ is about rewriting how things went down and each game playing out differently than before and differently than actual history.

The distinctness and civ identity is just a small part, a starting point, and its being blown up into something utterly crucial. They give you just enough america for you to start with and the remaining 200 turns is you making it into your america. The america that constructed the pyramids and founded autocracy.

America being actual america with its true culture is but a small part of this game.
 
And the leaders are not generic when theyd be the exact, literally the exact same, leaders youre getting now. Your leader would be Cleopatra not generic question mark leader.

I disagree the distinctness of the civs is crucial. Again, civ is about rewriting and changing. Its about making it your own. America doesnt always get the statue of liberty wonder in every game cause its theirs. Civ is about rewriting how things went down and each game playing out differently than before and differently than actual history.

The distinctness and civ identity is just a small part, a starting point, and its being blown up into something utterly crucial. They give you just enough america for you to start with and the remaining 200 turns is you making it into your america. The america that constructed the pyramids and founded autocracy.

America being actual america with its true culture is but a small part of this game.
I don't think anyone is talking about the importance of the leader when you play the civ but when you play against the civ. The leader is a face for the otherwise impersonal AI.
 
I don't think anyone is talking about the importance of the leader when you play the civ but when you play against the civ. The leader is a face for the otherwise impersonal AI.

I was going to bring this up and lo and behold I find a @Zaarin. Leaders as a concept are virtually useless from the player side of things; they are mechanically just a unique ability that could easily have no face. Their principle function is more to flesh out the AI as other "player" characters, complete with personalities and playstyles. Functionally, I think this is a good thing and would need careful consideration as to whether it would be worth sacrificing.

That said, I could envision a form of civ where AI have specific leaders/personalities, but players had a larger degree of customizability with their leader choice. As far as single-player mode goes, nothing much is lost (other than maybe being on a level playing field with the AI). Multiplayer might necessitate additional restrictions, such as limiting players to a single, immutable leader so that you still have a consistent avatar for the other players to interact with; but even then you could theoretically have a more complicated system where real players just don't have a "leader;" or maybe use their own customized avatar as a leader for multiplayer games.
 
I'm down with just no modern civilizations at all. ;)

To mis-quote Gandhi (the real one, not the frothing nutter in Civ):
"I think modern civilizations would be great if we had any modern civilization . . ."

Just some thoughts:

It is interesting to see a discussion of the relevance of Leaders come up now, when two other '4X historical' games are on the horizon with utterly different approaches to the Leader Question:

Humankind which does away with Leaders completely, and replaces them with the personal avatar of the player or, as I understand the clues, a 'generic' but sort of appropriately-attired AI leader for your opponent.

Old World which goes into exquisite detail with Leaders, Dynasties, dynastic marriages, illegitimate and legitimate Heirs, and even changes in who inherits that could spawn family infighting within your 'Civ'.

What both of them have in common is that they side-step the massive resource-sink that is the animated Leaders of Civ VI, which, from what I've seen so far, allows them to put more of those graphic resources into the maps and units and other game mechanisms.

But it all means that those who say Keep The Leaders in Civ 7 are right: it's one thing that distinctly separates Civ from its new competition.
On the other hand, compared to Humankind allowing you to play a different 'culture' or faction every Era and Old World allowing/demanding that you play with a new leaders every X turns when the old one dies (1-year turns, so no Leader is going to last into triple digits, and I've already, in 3 little test games, had one drop dead on me in 8 turns!) Civ's Leader system now is much more restrictive than either of the other two games: one leader per Civ or game compared to one 'leader' or Civ per Era (6 per game) or many Leaders throughout the game.

And if we change the animated individual leaders to an animated Diplomat or Diplomatic entourage with backgrounds as was suggested earlier, we can get multiple Leaders without requiring a multiplication of graphics requirements that sucks all the resources out of the rest of the game.

We can't go to 'realistic life span' individual leaders the way Old World does, because Civ is much larger in temporal scope: 1 year turns would require a game of up to 6000 turns, and some of us don't have enough years left to finish our second game at that rate.
BUT we might go with Dynasties of varying lengths (and Succession Crises and resulting Civil Wars or 'Regime Change' that the gamer has to deal with). Within the Dynasties individual names could crop up or recur regularly (like the successive Louises in France, Friederichs in Germany, Georges, Williams and Henrys in England/Britain).
Think of having an Ambassador from England in front of you bowing while a servant behind him is taking George I's portrait from the wall and putting up one of George II, then handing a black armband to the diplomat because they just 'changed' Leaders - and possibly, their attitude towards You!

"Leader Bonuses" could become effects related to changes in Social/Civic Policy. Technology, or In-Game Events so that the Effect of Leader Change would still be modeled but might not necessarily be as tightly tied to an individual Leader.
 
I would like to see the Leaders be able to be constructed a la carte, like in Master of Orion 2. And also know your starting position before you assemble the Leader, so you're not some Grassland Mansa Musa telling glorious stories to your grandchildren about a Desert they've never seen. Difficulty could be affected by voluntarily building your Leader on fewer points than your competition.

Sure, you could still order off the menu and take the Cleopatra Package. Or you could put together a Frankenstein's Monster of a Leader.

I know people are creating modded Leaders for use, in all sorts of permutations, but many of them are more imbalanced than interesting.
 
Hi!
I wouldn't do this exactly this way, but adding more leaders to each civ seems pretty nice. My idea is to have the leaders change every 2-3 eras or when changing to a higher tier government. Each leader would have his/her own special bonuses. I am aware that this would be a bit more complicated with civs like US, that didn't exist few centuries ago, or Aztecs/Incas/Sumeria, that don't exist now.
I think that it is more difficult for devs that it may seem, but I'd really like to see this in civ7! :)
 
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