Time for vampires to own up to their origin?

[Ahwaric]

There was also a vaccine - bury your suiciders/other deceased in strange circumstances at the crossroads so they never find a way home/your village

I always felt that vampires do not hang around with other undead. Skeletons? Zombies? Mummies? Even liches? Come on, give us some young women to bite their necks and feed Feeding and sex are not undead characteristics.

By the way, dracula was named after a person who was very much alive and commited atrocities while alive. Some call it politics and holy war...

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Vampires in Erebus are meant to exemplify the sphere of Aeron, The God of Body, Base Emotions, Lusts (of all kinds), Hatred, and Murder. These are very much qualities of the living, not the (un)dead.


The first Vampire was Alexis, a girl from the 6th generation of Mankind who (along with her brother Flauros) was kidnaped by Os-Gabella and raised as her daughter, as she had grown quite lonely but still refused to go back to Nemed and have her own children as had been ordained when she was made. The children were raised in the Blair of Lacuna, and were the only mortals there. Alexis grew to be terrified by the prospect that she would eventually die (especially given that almost everyone she knew would not), and sought a way to extend her life. She didn't exactly know what death was, so she began her quest with a little experiment where she killed a shepherd who lived nearby. She was disappointed in the result, as she could not make out what happened to the soul. She then focused on studying arcane texts that were available to her as a follower of Ceridwen (who had created the Blair for O-Gabella ans stored many such tomes in libraries there), and learned about runes that could be used to confine souls. She again went out of the Blair to find a victim, this time an Acolyte of Lugus by the name of Lanthis. She trapped him and surrounded him in a ring of runes (perhaps similar to the rune Samael used on Einion's wife) that would not let his soul escape as she tortured and experimented on him. Eventually, after torturing him long past the point where he would have died if his sould could have escaped, she grew tired of watching and decided to enter the ring. She kissed his bloody forehead and allowed his soul to escape into her body. Using her arcane knowledge, she consumed the soul to empower her rather than being possessed by it. The ritual extended her life and also enhanced her physical strength and senses. She showed the ritual to Flauros, and the two of them began hunting mortals for sustenance. Each victim would extend their life for about 30 years (probably depending on how long the victim could have lived normally), so they did not have to hunt often, but they came to enjoy it. Eventually they came to share the secret of this ritual, their dark gift, to others.

Lugus was appalled at Alexis's act, and cursed her for it. From the moment her lips touched Lanthis's blood, she became highly addicted to the taste, although the blood itself isn't really important to the ritual. While the ritual had enhanced her strength, Lugus made it so that his light would have the opposite effect. Direct sunlight causes vampires to feel great pain and be sapped of their strength, but it won't actually kill them. I'd guess that Lugus designed the punishment to reveal to them the way it feels to be the victim of their ritual. Despite what vampires seem to think, I do not believe that Lugus is vindictive or in any way seeking to punish them out of spite. His nature is not one of punishment, but of revealing one's shortcomings so that they can be overcome. Punishment is for him but a tool for remediation. Like Sirona and unlike Junil his goal is redemption, but like Junil and unlike Sirona he holds that law and punishment have an important place. I hold that Lugus would remove the curse from any repentant (ex)vampire who stopped using the ritual, although perhaps not until they cease to reap any benefit from their crimes. That may mean it would last for about 30 years per victim, and that unless the vampire was still young and had had very few victims he would almost certainly starve to death before it could be removed from his flesh. Still, his soul could be redeemed and enjoy the light of the Empyrean Heaven without pain or fear. Of course, that is but conjecture. There is no evidence that any vampire has yet chosen redemption.


While the Vampires are not themselves undead, they are experts on Necromancy. It is a shame to waste all your victim's bodies if you could put them to good use. This supply of corpses plus the arcane teachings Alexis and Flauros grew up with gave them a huge advantage in experimental necromancy. Sometimes a vampire lord may even use this knowledge to become a lich, presumably if he has begun to grow tired of the pleasures of the flesh but still does not want to face death. Lichdom may not be as fun as extending one's life through feasting, but it is easier as it saves time and resources to gain immortality through one spell rather than regular feasts.

 

[JonathanStrange]

Ahhh, now I have more insight into the twisted world of the Erebusian vampire. It almost makes me wish I didn't have to stake 'em.

 

[WarKirby]

At least a balance issue.
It would be way too easy to kill all these fed up vampires with this funny tier 2 spell...

Isn't that what the Magic Resistance promo is for?
Not like vamps have a shortage of experience...

I find it pretty unfair that vampires get all the traditional lore advantages:

Superhuman strength (+10% from vampirism, and they get more promos overall)
Superhuman speed (haste magic)
Rapid healing (faster healing from vampire promo, plus Regeneration spell)
Charismatic (mind spells)
Ability to feed and grow stronger
Ability to pass on their dark gift to others

But they have none of the traditional weaknesses.
Undead, and so vulnerable to holy things
Vulnerability to silver
Vulnerable to crosses
Vulnerable to wooden stakes
Unable to go out in sunlight
Necessity to feed regularly to remain strong.

This, I think, is why the FFH vampires are overpowered. And reading MC's post, it's kind of hard to argue. The way the vampires are implemented ingame doesn't quite correlate with the lore. Sun has no effect on them, for example.

some changes I would make to them...

-50% resistance to Holy/Sun damage
-40% strength vs disciple units
Sun II should cause damage to vampires, and give them the "Daylight" promo (penalties to strength, healing rate, and magic resistance)
They should have to feast semi-regularly. (maybe every 30 turns or so) or suffer increasing strength penalties from hunger, and eventually die.

 

[Luckmann]

Its hard to find an ancient culture that doesn't have a vampire myth of some sort (though they called them different things). Some were undead, some were very alive. I wish I can say that we invented the living vampire concept, but thats far from true.

In FfH vampires were the most requested addition during FfH1. The Calabim were the first civ designed, and they were largely designed around a single unit. That design hasnt changed since the first release of FfH2.

The civilizations are driven by a design grid. Even though we like vampires they wouldnt have been in if they didnt fill a design need (function leads to flavor, not the other way around). For us that meant the design grid said Aeron, god of murder -> dominion of the body -> ? Civilization.

It was actually a very easy decision, as I mentioned it was the first civ we picked. But Aeron was cruel and calculating, methodical and powerful. Not overt like Camulous, not involved in massive wars, he comes for you from the shadows, he is the god of assassins. So these are a dark, subtely powerful people. Body gives us blood, passion (but not ideological like Bhall, more base) and flesh. Because they epitomize body magic they should be perfect of form and beautiful, and because they epitomize Aeron they should be swift, strong and cruel.

Vampires were the perfect choice. But the design grid lead us to a specific implementation for them which became the Calabim. They are alive because they represent body magic, they are driven by the desires of the flesh because of this, they are cruel and punishing because of Aeron.

Hope that helps.

Mmmmmm... Slaaneshi vampires.

 

[WarKirby]

And also, if vampires are so about body magic, WHY do they start with death spells too?

I really don't see a justification for their ability to summon the undead.

 

[DioBrando]

-50% resistance to Holy/Sun damage
-40% strength vs disciple units
Sun II should cause damage to vampires, and give them the "Daylight" promo (penalties to strength, healing rate, and magic resistance)
They should have to feast semi-regularly. (maybe every 30 turns or so) or suffer increasing strength penalties from hunger, and eventually die.

Sun damage i would agree on. -40% strength vs disciple is just stupid. Why would they be weak against OO? Or AV? Or even FoL or RoK? It's probably not likely that they would be weak against Order.

Feasting semi-regularly wouldn't change anything, gamewise. It wouldn't make the game more enjoyable, nor would it add to challenge. This is true in most of your suggestions, really. You don't often suggest anything gamechanging or relevant, only minor updates that would add complexity while not adding challenge or fun.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I'm thinking that in my version Vampires will not start with Death of Body spells, but rather the Vampire promotion will allow them to purchase Death, Body, Mind, and Shadow promotions provided you have the appropriate mana.


In one of my version I made it so that Vampires outside of their own borders would occationally gain the Famished promotion (similar to Weak, plus also dealing them damage each turn though python), which could be removed by Feed or Feast. I'm not sure I'll keep that though.


Having a Sun/Empyrean spell damage (but not kill) Vampires could be appropriate, but I think it may be better to instead have Revelation and/or Blinding Light give Vampires the Withered promotion. The effects of the promotion are basically the opposite of the vampire promotion itself, but a little stronger. It is a serious penalty, but can be cured by any priest.

Having some weakness to holy damage (there is no such thing as Sun damage) may be fine too, but weakness to disciples is dumb.

 

[Kenjister]

I agree that Vampires should get a promotion basically nullifies the effect of the Vampiric promotion after getting hit with a Sun spell. MC's idea of wither works, but it would be cooler to have a more specific promo that get's removed automatically (25% chance per turn?) so you Vamps wouldn't be all running to priests after getting hit. Somewhat unthematic don't you think?
That plus a slight (-10% range) modifier against holy damage should make the Vampires a little less powerful, add flavor, but not be gamechanging in any way. Plus the AI would be able to handle it great since they love building Radiant Guards and Ratha's when they go Empyrean.

 

[KillerClowns]

So here's a question: what does it actually MEAN to have your soul devoured? Annihilation? A coma-like state until your devourer is eliminated (sending you to the appropriate afterlife)? Agony and suffering? Merging with your devourer and losing your identity?

 

[JonathanStrange]

That's marriage - or so I've heard from the guys at work.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

Small lore question:

Do Alexis and Flauros get along well?

(obviously, she cared enough to teach him the rituals..)

 

[DioBrando]

Small lore question:

Do Alexis and Flauros get along well?

(obviously, she cared enough to teach him the rituals..)

Have you played Code Veronica X? I think they have a relationship like those siblings.

Wait a minute, wasn't the girl in Code Veronica X also called Alexis?

 

[Kael]

So here's a question: what does it actually MEAN to have your soul devoured? Annihilation? A coma-like state until your devourer is eliminated (sending you to the appropriate afterlife)? Agony and suffering? Merging with your devourer and losing your identity?

I dont know. We dont have any lore on this.

Small lore question:

Do Alexis and Flauros get along well?

(obviously, she cared enough to teach him the rituals..)

They are your typical siblings, they fight, they argue, they kill those the other loves out of jealousy, boredom or to make a point. Just your basic brother and sister.

 

[Verdian]

I would imagine having your soul devoured would be the same as death, but instead of your soul going to your god's vault, it ceases to exist (gets digested, effectively). The victim is dead, though. They must be killed in order to get the soul to leave. I doubt killing a vampire would release the souls it had devoured, but that is mostly because it seems to "happy" for dark fantasy.

I was not aware that natural sunlight cause immense pain in vampires, only divine sunlight (from priests and angels and whatnot). I assumed normal sunlight would just be uncomfortable for them, and so they avoided it. That is not the case? Then would wearing a cloak, or an overcast day, be enough protection for a vampire to go for a stroll in the day?

 

[KillerClowns]

A Shrug of God. Those are fun to work with. Determining the most likely answer from piecing together other, sometimes unrelated, facts when even the world's creator doesn't know the answer...
Upon thinking about it, one small fact makes the annihilation angle seem less likely. If that was the result, wouldn't Os-Gabella's problem be solved? I suppose, of course, that her soul may simply be indigestible, but again, I'm working with the legendary Shrug of God, so...

 

[Verdian]

Os'Gabella cannot die, so her soul cannot be released. Thus it cannot be consumed.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

If I had to guess, I'd say that the Divine Spark consists both of the true immortal soul and the energy bound to it that it needs in order to fully manifest, in Erebus or any other world. The process of devouring a soul would strip it of this energy and then "excrete" the true soul out into the ether. It would then be completely powerless then though, and possibly completely unconscious. For all intents and purposes it ceases to exist, but it could still be revived by The One. The gods may not know this however, making the act of devouring souls seem even more vile to them.

Part of Nemed and Os-Gabella's immortality seems to be the insuperable attraction between all their parts, both spiritual and physical. As such, it would seem impossible to draw the soul out so that it could be consumed. Perhaps she things it would be possible for her soul to be devoured if riped from her body and held elsewhere first though. That may be why she seeks the Netherblade.

 

[JonathanStrange]

Have I already said this is good Civilopedia backgound lore? Now, if the minimal Elven civilopedia lore was beefed up a bit. "The Elven god died" is pretty much it.

 

[Nor'easter]

You guys will enjoy this story, then.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20090311/sc_livescience/medievalvampireskullfound