Time to critique the tech tree!

dunkleosteus

Roman Pleb
Joined
Aug 17, 2015
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Toronto, Canada
Civ 6 is still a month out, but why not start a discussion on the tech tree? We've heard that 6 will be the most moddable civ yet, and I expect changes to the tech tree will be pretty important in some of the larger mods. Your reasons for disputing the tech tree can be whatever- history, game balance, etc. You can argue for or against techs, their boosts and what they unlock or lead to. Let's start!
Afaik, this is the up-to-date tech tree for civ 6
Spoiler :
civ6_tech_tree1.jpg


I'll start by saying I'd prefer if the wheel came from Animal husbandry, not mining. I believe carts and the like were the inspiration for the wheel, not mining apparatus.
 
Wait 2 more days. We will hopefully have a new version of the tech tree that isn't 2 months old to evaluate.
 
I guess if I had to make a comment, the end of the tree looks mostly unit/war based and I believe we've come up with some cool new stuff recently outside of warfare
 
Looks more like a binary than a tree. Branches should spread more out. Otherwise you are not choosing the direction of research, you are just prioritizing.

For example in history most of the S American civs did not have a written language but where somewhat advanced in other branches of science
 
My initial thought was that it is very short and then ends in an explosion of units. I know that we also got the civic tree, but I usually play marathon, so it is going to be interesting to see if it is going to feel drawn out like too little butter over too much bread.
 
Don't have strong opinions on the tech tree but:

- I would have preferred OR arrows rather than AND arrows (would have required redesign tech tree)
- Medieval era looks very short. I see that they want each era to only have two tiers (except for ancient era), but together with the inclusion of industrial, modern, atomic and information era the tech tree gets very focused on newer techs. Splitting the medieval era into two would have helped a lot. Right now, 50% of the tech tree only covers the last 300 years of history.
 
Don't have strong opinions on the tech tree but:

- I would have preferred OR arrows rather than AND arrows (would have required redesign tech tree)
- Medieval era looks very short. I see that they want each era to only have two tiers (except for ancient era), but together with the inclusion of industrial, modern, atomic and information era the tech tree gets very focused on newer techs. Splitting the medieval era into two would have helped a lot. Right now, 50% of the tech tree only covers the last 300 years of history.

Hmm but isn't that kind of right? Technological advancement has snowballed.
 
Too many swim lanes and long 1.5 era jumps between techs.

All economic techs are up top, most unit techs are on the bottom. No real connections in there.
Over all seems like a bad design because it will break game pacing.
 
some of the boost are quite odd:
Radio: build a national park
electricit: own 3 privateers
etc..
And yes it's quite short and I would like to have dead ends, alternative routes, different focuses for different victory types..
 
Celestial navigation not leading anywhere looks and feels terrible.

Also, while I understand the premise (astrology is proto science, like alchemy->chemistry), "researching astrology" will still feel wrong.

Also, once again last techs are mostly only introducing new "necessary" last minute modern units.

Generally speaking, the whole tech tree has strong "vanilla" feeling of not enough content and being unfinished, which should be averted in a new iteration of civ. It makes irrational impression as if 15 techs and 40 items were removed from it.
 
Celestial navigation not leading anywhere looks and feels terrible.

Also, while I understand the premise (astrology is proto science, like alchemy->chemistry), "researching astrology" will still feel wrong.

Also, once again last techs are mostly only introducing new "necessary" last minute modern units.

Generally speaking, the whole tech tree has strong "vanilla" feeling of not enough content and being unfinished, which should be averted in a new iteration of civ. It makes irrational impression as if 15 techs and 40 items were removed from it.

We can't be sure what late era techs do with an early tree and no footage of lategame. For instance Computers appears to do nothing, which surely is not how it will be in the end!
 
Well it does look very "tracked"

The military<->civilian crossovers are
Classical: Horse->Apprenticeship,
Medieval: Stirrup->Bank, Apprenticeship->Gunpowder
....and then in Atomic it starts becoming purely military (or space race)

Which lends me to think that a Cultural or Religious Victory might not reach Information Era techs (they would probably reach Information Era civics instead)

Of course some of that is the end game techs possibly not having all their features in, but it is very unit heavy.

Of course there are some exceptions to the econ/military split (mostly units in the econ side of the tree, but also some Wonders)

Also its nice to see some 'dead end' techs
 
I'd also like to see bronze working as requiring pottery and mining. The kilns and ceramics in pottery were necessary for smelting early metals. Throwing minerals into a fire isn't exactly your first instinct, pottery makes that an easier leap.

Engineering should be the wheel and masonry.
 
I sincerely hope that Tech Tree we have so far is not the final version, but I'm afraid it will be very close.

It looks very much like, having decided to move a lot of the 'technologies', Wonders, and some units to the Civics Tree, they lost interest in the Tech Tree and knocked it together on a Sunday morning while they were hung over - or still drunk. At the very least, it looks simple-minded, as if the 'Technologies' were invented to give something to hang Units, Improvements, and Wonders on. I mean, seriously, folks: technologies named 'Apprenticeship', 'Castles', and 'Square-rigging'? The formal Apprenticeship system was a product of Social change, not technology, the Castle was the Product of a Social/Political system that required defensive fortification to keep an eye on the source of wealth- land, and 'Square-rigging' is meaningless: the Bronze Age Galley had a Square Rigged Sail, for Cryin' out loud!

And, in too many places, the progression of the Technologies makes little sense, either Historically or for Gameplay purposes. Right at the start, Mining Tech gives you access to 3 other technologies, while Animal Husbandry only 2, and one of those an Era away, Pottery access to 2 technologies in the same Era, but presumes that Pottery was a requirement for Writing. Say What?

The requirement for Writing is the Necessity to Keep Records. So, yes, having a bunch of pots full of Stuff requires record-keeping, but so does having a bunch of valuable animals and their products (horn, hide, leather, etc) to keep track of. Writing is one Technology (among many) that cries out to have more than one antecedent, and the ability to be reached via more than one route.

The Wheel requires Mining, but not any animals to haul the wheeled vehicles. What are you mining here, Hubcaps? Without a domesticated draft animal, the Wheel may be invented, but it will not be used - see the technology of the Americas for examples: there are toys using the wheel from Precolumbian Mexico, but no larger wheeled vehicles. The Wheel requires Animal Husbandry, and the 'Boost' should be at least one pasture: even a cart pulled by a goat/sheep will do, and obviously cattle (oxen) or horses are the classic Draft Animals.

I'm not going to go into the rest in detail, because it would take pages BUT there is one more thing: having come up with the Civics/Culture Tree, why didn't they integrate it more with the Tech Tree? Specifically, there are quite a number of military units that require certain Social developments rather than technologies. Just for example, the Hoplite is just another armored spearman, until you add the social concept that all the members of the group are equal citizens and the greatest disgrace is to Let Your Neighbor Down by breaking from the wall of shields - each of which protects the man on your left as well as yourself. Likewise, the Roman Legion was just a bunch of swordsmen until you added Military Training and a near-lifetime (20 - 25 year service commitment) in the Legion. The Knight was an armored horseman, not appreciably different from the late Roman heavy cavalry, Byzantine Cataphract, Sassanid Persian Clibanarii, Sarmatian armored cavalry - until you added Fuedalism and made him a Social critter, given land to support himself so that he was Always Ready for War at his fuedal master's bidding. Fuedalism is not a Bonus for Knights, it is a requirement.

And finally, of course, the late-game Tech Tree is an afterthought, as it was in Civ V: the technologies and capabilities of the Modern, Atomic and Information Eras are almost completely lacking.
Where are the canals? Where are the great Dams that not only provide electric power and irrigation but also Change the Landscape!? Where's the Chunnel? Where is Containerized Shipping that vastly increases Trade and Revenue late in the game (post 1950s)? Where are developments like the General Staff (Industrial Era)? Where's the 'American Method' of Production Line manufacturing (Ford's River Rouge Plant, Stalin's Kharkov Tractor Works) that hugely increased production almost regardless of the skill of the worker? For that matter, where are the late Renaissance International Banking Families (Fuggers, Rothschilds, etc) who provided governments with another source of Ready Money just when the cost of armies (with Bombards, muskets, and other expensive toys) and fortifications (the Vauban or Italian Trace geometric forts) was going through the roof?

I will stop now before I start Frothing at the Keyboard.:wallbash: In respect to the Tech Tree, so far, Civ VI is no improvement at all over Civ V. The addition of a separate Civics Tree does not make up for lack of thought in implementing either Tree.
 
I sincerely hope that Tech Tree we have so far is not the final version, but I'm afraid it will be very close.

It looks very much like, having decided to move a lot of the 'technologies', Wonders, and some units to the Civics Tree, they lost interest in the Tech Tree and knocked it together on a Sunday morning while they were hung over - or still drunk. At the very least, it looks simple-minded, as if the 'Technologies' were invented to give something to hang Units, Improvements, and Wonders on. I mean, seriously, folks: technologies named 'Apprenticeship', 'Castles', and 'Square-rigging'? The formal Apprenticeship system was a product of Social change, not technology, the Castle was the Product of a Social/Political system that required defensive fortification to keep an eye on the source of wealth- land, and 'Square-rigging' is meaningless: the Bronze Age Galley had a Square Rigged Sail, for Cryin' out loud!

And, in too many places, the progression of the Technologies makes little sense, either Historically or for Gameplay purposes. Right at the start, Mining Tech gives you access to 3 other technologies, while Animal Husbandry only 2, and one of those an Era away, Pottery access to 2 technologies in the same Era, but presumes that Pottery was a requirement for Writing. Say What?

The requirement for Writing is the Necessity to Keep Records. So, yes, having a bunch of pots full of Stuff requires record-keeping, but so does having a bunch of valuable animals and their products (horn, hide, leather, etc) to keep track of. Writing is one Technology (among many) that cries out to have more than one antecedent, and the ability to be reached via more than one route.

The Wheel requires Mining, but not any animals to haul the wheeled vehicles. What are you mining here, Hubcaps? Without a domesticated draft animal, the Wheel may be invented, but it will not be used - see the technology of the Americas for examples: there are toys using the wheel from Precolumbian Mexico, but no larger wheeled vehicles. The Wheel requires Animal Husbandry, and the 'Boost' should be at least one pasture: even a cart pulled by a goat/sheep will do, and obviously cattle (oxen) or horses are the classic Draft Animals.

I'm not going to go into the rest in detail, because it would take pages BUT there is one more thing: having come up with the Civics/Culture Tree, why didn't they integrate it more with the Tech Tree? Specifically, there are quite a number of military units that require certain Social developments rather than technologies. Just for example, the Hoplite is just another armored spearman, until you add the social concept that all the members of the group are equal citizens and the greatest disgrace is to Let Your Neighbor Down by breaking from the wall of shields - each of which protects the man on your left as well as yourself. Likewise, the Roman Legion was just a bunch of swordsmen until you added Military Training and a near-lifetime (20 - 25 year service commitment) in the Legion. The Knight was an armored horseman, not appreciably different from the late Roman heavy cavalry, Byzantine Cataphract, Sassanid Persian Clibanarii, Sarmatian armored cavalry - until you added Fuedalism and made him a Social critter, given land to support himself so that he was Always Ready for War at his fuedal master's bidding. Fuedalism is not a Bonus for Knights, it is a requirement.

And finally, of course, the late-game Tech Tree is an afterthought, as it was in Civ V: the technologies and capabilities of the Modern, Atomic and Information Eras are almost completely lacking.
Where are the canals? Where are the great Dams that not only provide electric power and irrigation but also Change the Landscape!? Where's the Chunnel? Where is Containerized Shipping that vastly increases Trade and Revenue late in the game (post 1950s)? Where are developments like the General Staff (Industrial Era)? Where's the 'American Method' of Production Line manufacturing (Ford's River Rouge Plant, Stalin's Kharkov Tractor Works) that hugely increased production almost regardless of the skill of the worker? For that matter, where are the late Renaissance International Banking Families (Fuggers, Rothschilds, etc) who provided governments with another source of Ready Money just when the cost of armies (with Bombards, muskets, and other expensive toys) and fortifications (the Vauban or Italian Trace geometric forts) was going through the roof?

I will stop now before I start Frothing at the Keyboard.:wallbash: In respect to the Tech Tree, so far, Civ VI is no improvement at all over Civ V. The addition of a separate Civics Tree does not make up for lack of thought in implementing either Tree.

Excellent critique, Boris. Natasha must be proud.

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