No, there does exist an option which has that effect in civ III conquests at least.
Tips for avoiding a flip after capturing an enemy city.
- Thread starter alcibaides
- Start date
No, there does exist an option which has that effect in civ III conquests at least.
Fiddlin Nero
Prince
To bad, it's there in PTW.
nyarmondt
Chieftain
First of all, put at least 3 units in the captured city. They help to quell the resistance. More might be better, but don't go crazy... 5 troops is the maximum effective resistance-quelling amount.
Second, build a cultural building as soon as possible. Your library or temple will help to fight off the culture from the original civ.
Third, make sure that your cultural borders get as much space as possible. If you conquer an other city of the civ you're in war with, and that city is really not that important to you...raze it. That way, your culture will be the only one -the populace of your previously conquered city will have to watch YOUR crappy soap opera's
Now, if your invasion started with a huge amount of troops -or has the advantage of some great support troops (Byzantine Dromon FTW
) - you might want to consider taking (annd holding) 2 or 3 cities, before you start razing other towns who could act as cultural broadcasters. This gives you a nice platform to throw the pesky enemy into the sea.
Also, the bigger the city you conquered, the harder it is to keep. Big city = lots of people = lots of resisters. Also, most of the time, it will have accumulated more culture, meaning that its inhabitants will be confronted with all the antics of their "glorious past", and thus favouring a culture flip.
In fact, as soon as you see a big city, don't think "I want that one!", but go more like "EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINAAAATE!!!"
And thus, you are set up for a long and lasting rule
Second, build a cultural building as soon as possible. Your library or temple will help to fight off the culture from the original civ.
Third, make sure that your cultural borders get as much space as possible. If you conquer an other city of the civ you're in war with, and that city is really not that important to you...raze it. That way, your culture will be the only one -the populace of your previously conquered city will have to watch YOUR crappy soap opera's
Now, if your invasion started with a huge amount of troops -or has the advantage of some great support troops (Byzantine Dromon FTW
) - you might want to consider taking (annd holding) 2 or 3 cities, before you start razing other towns who could act as cultural broadcasters. This gives you a nice platform to throw the pesky enemy into the sea.Also, the bigger the city you conquered, the harder it is to keep. Big city = lots of people = lots of resisters. Also, most of the time, it will have accumulated more culture, meaning that its inhabitants will be confronted with all the antics of their "glorious past", and thus favouring a culture flip.
In fact, as soon as you see a big city, don't think "I want that one!", but go more like "EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINAAAATE!!!"
And thus, you are set up for a long and lasting rule
So in essence there are 2 strategies. Either you use more units than are necessary to prevent any chance of a flip for sure. Or you use not a single unit because the alternative would be to lose it in a flip. The second is preferable because the first can only be applied with lots of units or cultural superiority which can hardly be achieved at higher difficulty settings. So it is cheaper to risk flips and keep some unit back to recapture the city immediately. There is the one exception of the turn of capture in which a flip does never occur. That is a good opportuny to quell the resistance by putting approximatly three times as many units in the city than it has population. This should quell down the resistance immediatly. Using anything between those 2 strategies is not recommended as it can result in a total loss of the garrison. You donnot want to risk that.
Yup. Look closely at the formula. The only factors you can influence in the short term are F, T, and G. Reducing F is why players recommend starving the population down after a city is captured, by setting all the citizens to work as specialists. One can reduce T by conquering (or razing) nearby cities in your next turn of the military campaign. And yes, you can increase G by putting a larger garrison into the city.
If you're invading a highly cultured enemy, and you have been building few cultural buildings, then your ratio of (Cte/Cty) will be at a permanent disadvantage. Thus, when you're invading the core of another Civ, go for the kill/wipeout, since you'll be battling both the ratio, T, and the D factor.
Note, too, the advantage of raze-n-replace. The number of foreigners (F) will be zero, since it was your settler who founded the new town. If you are founding the new town in neutral territory (because you've been razing the old towns), then T will also be zero. Your new baby towns cannot flip to the enemy.
I knew that razing cities will have a diplomatic impact. I wasn't aware that starving a city *after* I have captured it had any diplomatic impact. Yes, the AI is furious with me for declaring war and taking its cities, but how does it know or care what I do with the citizens? Can anyone confirm this?
The article in the war academy indicates there is a penalty for starving foreign citizens, though the author couldn't determine whether it was a temporary or permanent penalty. http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/ai_attitude.php
Yup. In trying to answer my own question, I found that SirPleb did some additional testing on page 5 in forum page, that discusses that article. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=44999&page=5
Now, I just need to decide if it's worth it -- having my victim get even more angry with me, in return for a greater chance of keeping the cities I just took from him/her. If the terrain around the cities is reasonably fertile, I can grow back citizens that are *my* nationality. Building a cultural building (as several folks have recommended) will help the foreigners assimilate into my culture, which would also reduce "F" -- but that's a medium-term, not a short-term solution.
Now, I just need to decide if it's worth it -- having my victim get even more angry with me, in return for a greater chance of keeping the cities I just took from him/her. If the terrain around the cities is reasonably fertile, I can grow back citizens that are *my* nationality. Building a cultural building (as several folks have recommended) will help the foreigners assimilate into my culture, which would also reduce "F" -- but that's a medium-term, not a short-term solution.
If you make all but one citizen slaves all new citizen will be your nationalty. The investments is higher, but on some occations it can be worth the effort. However, i prefer to use slaves mostly for roleplay reasons.
Culture will not help to assimilate them. And as in case of a flip all cultural buildungs will be lost you should not invest into such risky things too early.
Assimilation depends only on goverment. In Communism and Democracies every foreigner has a chance of 4% to convert to your nationalty, in Feudalismus the chance is 3%, in Anarchy it is 1% and every other goverment has a chance of 2%. So Com and Dem need averagely 34 turns to convert 75% into your nationatly, Feud needs 46 turns and the rest but anarchy need 69 turns on average to convert 75% into your nationality.
I think you'll find that 'reload if it doesn't go your way' is not a popular answer mainly because it doesn't actually address the problem. It also can't be used for the XotM, SG or HoF games, so it tends to be frowned upon. I have no problem with anyone enjoying the game as they see fit, but this is like showing someone how to win a game by giving them the cheat code for infinite health. Sure it works. Not much fun after the first 15 minutes and good luck trying to get anyone to play with you in coop games (unless they are cheating too). Sort of pointless IMO. To each their own.
I have actually done some experimenting on this and I have found that the flip chance must be sensitive to a variety of conditions. I have had a city flip and then reloaded. I put more units in the city and it still flipped. I reloaded and put a monster force in the city including several armies. It flipped. I reloaded and removed all units from the city. It flipped. At this point I figured it would flip no matter what. Rushing culture wouldn't help because the city would flip before there was any build. I tried one last time and pulled all units from the city save one unit. I did not flip.
Aside from the movement of the troops, I did nothing else before ending each turn. The only thing I can think of is that the AI used propaganda to incite the flip and for some reason chose not to us it under those circumstance.
Aside from the movement of the troops, I did nothing else before ending each turn. The only thing I can think of is that the AI used propaganda to incite the flip and for some reason chose not to us it under those circumstance.
This is very very unlikely. Propaganda is expensive and works only at very low probabilities, so 20000 Gold or more may need to be invested for a 50% chance of sucess. Using the money for the military is a much better choice. And even if the odds are very bad against you only 15 units in a city make it completly immun against propaganda, in most cases much less will suffice.
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/espionage_missions.php
To prevent regular flips you need more than G = (F+T)*Cc*H*(Cte/Cty) military units as garrison in the city. It is as simple as that.
This is very very unlikely. Propaganda is expensive and works only at very low probabilities, so 20000 Gold or more may need to be invested for a 50% chance of sucess. Using the money for the military is a much better choice. And even if the odds are very bad against you only 15 units in a city make it completly immun against propaganda, in most cases much less will suffice.
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/espionage_missions.php
To prevent regular flips you need more than G = (F+T)*Cc*H*(Cte/Cty) military units as garrison in the city. It is as simple as that.
I don't disagree with you, but there must be more to it. I prevented the flip by reducing the number of units in the city while increasing it had no effect. Does this suggest that the flip roll is not preserved as a random seed?
Maybe it is preserved for each probability and thereby for each number of suppresing units seperately. This does not violate the probabilities and still explains the result. As battle mechanics work similar this seems the most plausible explanation.
You might also consider that quelling resistance does also work at a random base.
CommandoBob
AbstractArt
I use the utility MapStat to help with this. It has a tab for flip chances and indicates how many units are needed to prevent the flip.
Plus, some units are not considered in the anti-flip calculation. Workers, settlers and artillery units are excluded.
MapStat is part of CrpSuite (Civ RePlay Suite), a free download.
Back to the Opening Post: Once the resistance is over, I tend to rush slaves for their free upkeep. I'll let one shield be invested and then rush the rest for 36 gold. Drops the city size by one, in addition to any starving going on (varies from game to game and mood to mood) and give me a jungle-chopper/pollution cleaner upper for cheap.
After it down to size 1, I'll grow it back and probably turn it into a geek haven.
Plus, some units are not considered in the anti-flip calculation. Workers, settlers and artillery units are excluded.
MapStat is part of CrpSuite (Civ RePlay Suite), a free download.
Back to the Opening Post: Once the resistance is over, I tend to rush slaves for their free upkeep. I'll let one shield be invested and then rush the rest for 36 gold. Drops the city size by one, in addition to any starving going on (varies from game to game and mood to mood) and give me a jungle-chopper/pollution cleaner upper for cheap.
After it down to size 1, I'll grow it back and probably turn it into a geek haven.
r16
not deity
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2008
- Messages
- 12,390
all good points and actually it surprised me people were not doing it , but some expertise is really needed in proper gameplay if you want to stay honest . This expertise causes a certain envy of sorts in me when ı see screenshots that shows treasury gains 1000 golds per turn , that tends to be more than ı have in my treasury at the end of the game .
Valid points which, if true, means that unless you can fully garrison the city to prevent the flip, best not to leave anything there at all. Seems like an aweful lot of calculations going on there though. It would need to do that with every city for every level of unit at least until the probability reaches 0%. That must be why the IBT takes so feaking long . . .
That must be why the IBT takes so feaking long . . .
If your computer is not as old as Civ3 the most time ist not needed for those calculations but for displaying all those AI units within your sight distance.
