TNESI: The Glorious Mysteries

[alex994]

Your examples using the Qing dynasty and such societies are irrelevant to the discussion. Those societies, though they claim to be AGAINST European intervention, were founded upon imported ideas of nationalism, liberty, and the like.

As I said, the example of the Qing and Boxers were off topic. But of course, those barely literate peasants were capable of accepting imported foreign ideas, perhaps those ideas were not imported? As shown by the resistance against the Mongol conquest of Song China and later the Qing conquest of Ming China by the COMMON PEOPLE. How do you think resistance lasted for more then 12 years against the Qing by the Ming? How do you think the Song fought against the Mongols for more then 3 years (Longer then all other states who fell to the Mongols) if the common people didn't support them and fight?

If there was no war, and everything was peaceful, then that is even MORE reason AGAINST claims of national consciousness. Nationalism is defined by people uniting together because they are not a different group of people who live elsewhere. If there is no sense of conflict, then there is no sense of nationalism, atleast not among the peasentry.

My apologies if my vocabulary is inferior, but could you try to be more understandable? Just because there is no sense of conflict AT THE MOMENT does not mean the conflict does not exist. The underlying sense of nationalism, not the best but the nearest word, in China is what always pulls China back. Yes, it mostly affects the Upper Classes and the Middle Class, but the sense is still there in a more diluted form in the lower classes, or the peasantry. The massive conscript armies China used for most of her history existed because her people SUPPORTED their existance to defend their country, especially the peasants even if they didn't like it.Which shouldn't even exist in Min China, the peasants that is....

Furthermore, the Chinese, though they had "national" consciousness in the form of their loyalty to China (though it cannot really be termed "national"), were not dynastically loyal. They were content as long as their rulers were Han. Comparing England to China is like comparing Apples to Oranges. England is a highly urbanized and small society with a fairly small population. England goes by western philosophy which stresses individualism and the like. National consciousness forms because the English see that they are different from the other nations around them, and come to realize that all of the English people like them are in the same boat against foriegners. Also, in England, due to its small size and relatively small population, aswell as due to its parliamentry tradition, there is a deep connection to the government, and what the government does immediately effects its citizens. China, however, does not have that luxury. No matter how "unified" your country is, it can never be really unified due to the vast size of China. What the Emperor does little effects the rural peasentry.

The comparison with England in the 1500 was how far England had progressed to developing her national identity from a later point in time as opposed to China's own developing national identity earlier on. Though in 1500 under Henry VIII, England was anything but highly urbanized. The parliamentry tradition had hardly come to anything in the manner of direct rule aside from their control of the purse and the Crown still ran the affairs of the State. But I digress, that's not important.

The point is: "Is the Yuan Dynasty Han?" And according to you, the peasantry was satisfied as long as their ruler was Han. Thus the farmers and the peasants should be discontent or at least show some appearance of being discontent as the Yuan Dynasty isn't Han. Which they aren't showing which is something I'm trying to point out.

China, in essence, (during the 16th century) is much more like Oceania of 1984 than an actual nation-state. There is an elite who are very much so fervent about their domain, but to claim that the peasents care much about who governs them is like claiming that the proles cared as much for the Party in 1984.

The difference is that I'm talking about the China in this timeline. Not the OTL China. The difference in THIS timeline as opposed to the Ming China in the OTL 16th Century is that there is a large vibrant and flourishing middle class open and receptive to new ideas. This vibrant and flourishing middle class with her increased spending capabilities is a direct result of the Min Dynasty. A vibrant and flourishing middle class with a direct impact on the farmers and peasants in the form of increased demand for goods.

There are Two Chinas, one liberal, and one conservative. One focused on agriculture while another is focused on trade and industry. This is NOTHING LIKE 16th Century OTL China. And oh yes, I think the proles, unlike the peasants, would actually dislike the Party in 1984 instead of being generally apathetic. It's even more ironic that a misunderstood sarcastic statement began this....

I'm sure Das will come and express his opinion on the situation in THIS TIMELINE, either that or just watch us ramble on and on in amusement.

 

[Thlayli]

Interestingly enough, there IS now a thread for Chinese peasant spam.

And this is not it. So please take it elsewhere, thanks.

 

[Insane_Panda]

I must get the last word, so I will state that Alex is indeed right and that all Chinese peasents have a grand idea of the greatness of Chinese civilization and that their purpose in life is to make China into a glorious and great state.

After they do that, they shall roll over and die.

DONE!

 

[LittleBoots]

I must get the last word

We can all appreciate honesty

FROM: Second Leonese Empire
TO: Caliphate of Andalusia

While we have the highest respect for our allies, we wonder why we needed to confirm our claims with the Khalifah. The Aragonese line was ended and ours was the righteous claim. We merely ensured that a True King of the Aragonese ruling line assumed rightful control over the kingdom in its troubled time.

We hope that there will be no bad blood between our peoples over this issue.

 

[Thlayli]

Well, the PC stats are also...

DONE!

All PM's, treaties, alliances, NAP's, and other meaningless nitpicks will be addressed and added tomorrow. I need to sleep, badly.

Orders are due Friday, 3 PM, EST. Don't forget!

 

[Insane_Panda]

Thlayli, you did not grow my economy as asked (you agreed to do so aswell).

Should I expect myself to be at Rich (+3)?

 

[Thlayli]

Thlayli, you did not grow my economy as asked (you agreed to do so aswell).

Should I expect myself to be at Rich (+3)?

Yes, you should! Correcting that now.

 

[Icmancin]

Friday, as in the day after tomorrow is the deadline?


@Alex- Negotiations on MSN, tomorrow at 6:00 PM, GMT -4. Is that good? I don't know your timezone so work with me here. If that isn't good, get it to me quick. I have a couple of hours tonight (like... 5) so try and get your response to this time in ASAP.

 

[Wubba360]

To: Andulusia
From: Egypt

You are making me angry. You won't like me when I am angry. So stop trying to turn the world against us and be all accfepting. So because of your offense you just cost about maybe 100 sunnis' their lives. Ha Ha Ha!

 

[alex994]

OOC: I'm merely saying in my attempt to get the last word that while Chinese peasants aren't as uber-patriotic as I am(I won't sacrifice my life as a glorified conscript of coruse ) to say they have no sense of patriotism/nationalism is a bit odd

Icmancin, I'm on msn and aim right now. You don't seem to be

 

[Cuivienen]

I must apologize for all the NPC diplo flying around in your inbox from me, Thlayli.

 

[Swissempire]

To: Egpyt
From: Andalusia

Allah frowns upon you. But these Sunni's die justified, for to die a muslim is to attain salvation.

Allah protects us, but i cannot say the same of you. You people have been scorned by Allah. My people are the manifests of that scorn.

"And strive hard in (the way of) Allah, (such) a striving a is due to Him; He has chosen you and has not laid upon you an hardship in religion; the faith of your father Ibrahim; He named you Muslims before and in this, that the Apostle may be a bearer of witness to you, and you may be bearers of witness to the people; therefore keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and hold fast by Allah; He is your Guardian; how excellent the Guardian and how excellent the Helper!"

 

[Swissempire]

Andalusia​

It was the year 933 AH, in the Month of Muharram. The Cresent moon had just been sighted in Ixville. Abu 'abd Allah Muhammad XIII sat with his advisors. They just called him Abu.

He sat there on the Muslim New Year, not celebrating like the Europeans with Alcohol, but with a short prayer. Then he restarted the meeting with his advisors. To his left sat his Grand Vizier, the Adliye Nazırı, and the Grand Askeri. To his right sat the Nazır of the Baltaçi, the Nazır of the Altı Bölük, and the Nazir of the Zuluflu Baltaci.

They sat there discussing the politics and structure of the nation.

"Caliph, we must expand our Baltaci, for the Europeans are at our gates"

"Nay, the Alti Boluk shall protect us if you fund them!"

"Sire, your not safe from the espionage of the Christians, the Zuluflu Baltaci must be enlarged!"

And of course the civil officials would have none of this military stuff...

"Sire, the colonies need investing in? With all this military money, how shall we maintain them, let alone expand them?"

"Sire, you the askeri are concerned on policy and they request more input!"

And as these officials squaabled the Grand Vizier, Gedik Ahmet Pasha, sat silently on his mat. Gedik was Abu's most trusted advisors. They had grown up together, and as Abu received his education in the Qu'ran, Gedik was travelling Europe and being educated by the brightest minds of the era. His silence was a sign that he actually had something that mattered to say. So the Caliph let these petty officials squabble more, for maybe an hour. Then he spoke up.

"Thank you, i shall ponder on your requests and suggestions. All except the Grand Vizier are dismissed. Ahmet Pasha, i shall see you in my chambers at once"
----------------------------------

Abu sat in a posh sofa in his private bedchambers. Gedik entered,

"Greetings, Honored Caliph"

And Abu cracked a smile and hugged his old friend, "Salaam, Gedik"

But Gedik pulled back. "Abu, you are no idiot. How can you say salaam in such times as these. Technically we're at war with Aargon and Provence. Gibralter trade is falling because of the tension, we need a plan!"

But Abu knew how his friend worked. He nonchalantly dipped a piece of bread in olive oil, and took a sip from a goblet of water. His flowing robes did just that, and as the silence hung in the air like the velvet drapes on his window, the Caliph finally smirked.

"And i suppose you have that plan?"

"Of course. We must increase our colonial might, as you already are, and we must decrease the power of these pesky Askeri. Allah grants not nobility by birth, and neither should you! We must increase the people's faith in us!"

"But what of the Berbers, the Italians, the Leonese, the Druze Imposters?"

"Of course i have a plan for that....."

And the two friends talked deep into the Night of the New Year.

 

[LittleBoots]

Anything we need to talk about Swiss? Aragon doesn't exist as a distinct entity anymore, and you never replied to my response to your diplo.

 

[~Darkening~]

Rit Tit Tat- The Spider and the Rat ​

Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- the spider met the rat.
Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- the spider next befriended the rat.

Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat
Rit tit tat- there the spider saw the crying rat
Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- the spider inquired about her friend; the rat.

Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- ‘my child has gone astray’ cried the rat
Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat
Rit tit tat- ‘’three days ago she disappeared’ lamented the rat.

Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- there the spider saw a golden chance with the rat
Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- there she saw a chance for dinner with the rat.

Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- thus the spider agreed with the rat.
Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- so the spider went along with the rat.

Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- along the dirt path went the spider and rat.
Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- the spider traveled for three days and nights with the rat.

Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- Without incidence the three days passed with the rat.
Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- But on the third day the spider grew irritated with the rat.

Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- Too much weeping over her lost child did the rat.
Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- Too much time spent crying the spider whined to the rat.

Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- ‘Time is floating away from us’ screamed the spider at the rat.
Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- ‘Your daughter is leaving your grasp’ she complained of the rat.

Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- ceased her crying did the rat
Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat
Rit tit tat- and along the spider went once again in search of child with the rat.

Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- On the fourth day upon a hawk came the spider and rat.
Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- Wary was the spider but not the rat.

Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- ‘Have you seen my child’ questioned the rat.
Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- The hawk screech at the rat.

Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat-‘“You child I may have seen.’ He said to the rat.
Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- ‘Three days ago the fox came with your kind in his jaws’. He informed the rat.

Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- Thus the lamenting began again by the rat.
Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- However the spider never gave up like the rat.

Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- ‘Show the way he went’ the spider demanded to the hawk for the rat.
Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- And again the spider went off with the rat.

Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- However the spider stayed not with the rat.
Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- On the fifth night she snuck away from the rat.

Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- The entire time the spider was trailed along with the rat.
Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- For indeed the spider’s whole family was adjourning with the rat.

Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- The spider ran to her family that night away from the rat.
Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- She said to her family: ‘I hope soon for the end of this annoying rat’

Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- ‘But I know that a larger feast will include her daughter’ she said of the rat.
Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- ‘A feast it shall be when we converge on this rat!”

Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- the spider ran back to the rat.
Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat
Rit tit tat- the duo set off in search again of the daughter of the rat

Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat
Rit tit tat- Finally on the sixth day upon the fox came the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- finally confronting the fox did the rat.

Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- ‘Where is she, my daughter’ screamed the rat.
Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- bearing her fangs and pressing the fox did the rat.

Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat
Rit tit tat- The fox timidly yelled: ‘I have not your daughter you crazy rat!’
Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat
Rit tit tat- ‘Do not lie to me!’ sobbed the rat.

Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- ‘Your daughter was not taken by me!’ the fox whimpered to the rat
Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- Finally the spider sighed and said: “I believe him- let him go rat.”

Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- The fox scampered away from the spider and rat
Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat
Rit tit tat- “We shall find your daughter’ the spider reassured the rat.

Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat-Thus the spider lied to the rat.
Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- For the spider had planned that night to take the rat.

Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- ‘Now my sisters!’ The spider called out, surprising the rat.
Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- The sisters of the spider all came from nowhere and converged on the rat.

Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- Several sisters were wounded while fighting the rat
Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- But in the end all hope was gone for the rat.

Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- But the spiders wouldn’t be the end of the rat
Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat
Rit tit tat- For the hawk had come to eat both the spiders and the rat.

Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- The hawk had lied to the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- for indeed it was him who had eaten the daughter of the rat.

Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- And indeed it was the hawk who lied to the spider and rat
Rit tit tat- the spider and the rat.
Rit tit tat- And it was the hawk who had the last laugh in the treachery of the rat.

OOC: Who am I……well, you’ll just have to wait to find out . I’ll have one more story pmed (along with basic stats) to you before the deadline Thlayli- one that actually has something to do with my people ;].

 

[alex994]

Ah... That was a totally random story Yet oddly entertaining...

 

[~Darkening~]

Ah... That was a totally random story

Trust me, nothing I do is random.

 

[alex994]

The Glory of the Light​

“Justice, Might, and Benevolence, they are but an example of the ideal traits of an Emperor. Yet how many have truly had those traits? Gaozu, Founder of Han was a wily rogue. Bold and arrogant, he manipulated men as the Gods manipulate the Earth. Yet, he is worshipped and seen by many as a Great Emperor. Hypocrites." –Emperor Hongwu

Baihua, Feiliben (Manila, Philippines)

“Admiral, the Duke will see you now. He is quite ill and is, Heaven Forbid, at Death’s door.”

“Thank you, please lead the way.”

The chamberlain led him throughout the complex series of corridors, rooms and gardens that made up the hope of the well off and wealthy subjects of the Empire. It was all built in the design of China, China and her splendor. It would make sense that the Marquis’s ancestors, though of native origins, would construct in such a fashion. They reached the room of the Marquis in no time and with the door already open he stepped in.

“Lord Duke, it is a pleasure to see you in such a blooming state of health. It is always my honor to see you.”

“Admiral *cough* dispense with the pleasantries. *cough* I am hardly in a blooming state of youth.”

He was right, the once vigorous man the Duke once were was gone. He resembled very much an elderly man at the end of the line when he was but beginning to reach his old age Having served under the Duke in his youth when he was still a captain, he could still remember the oratory not to mention the physical prowess of the young Duke then. Confident, proud and undoubtedly intelligent only his intelligence had remained. His confidence and pride had been worn away by the ravages of time.

He was sitting now, leaning on a cane with an aura of peerless wisdom. The features with hardly any discernable Chinese traits, a remarkable difference from the people he had seen in the streets of Baihua.

“I was taught that one should always remain pleasant, polite and respectful even with hated enemies and those who are plainly an inverse to what we say.”

“As always, *cough* you are the ideal Chinese gentleman Admiral, come, *cough* sit. So that we may discuss as the ancients did, as equals.” The Duke waits patiently, without a single trace of worry, concern or hurry. The Admiral took a seat on the indicated chair, crossed his legs, took a sip of tea and spoke.

“Duke, let’s not waste time with idle chatter. There is a clear reason why you asked for my presence and I’m afraid to say I’m at a complete loss at why you requested my presence…

“Admiral, I *cough* assume you are aware that I am one of the last of a dying breed? *cough cough* You have seen the signs of the seeds first sown in my time. *cough* I was born, knowing that our time had passed. There is not a single drop of Chinese blood in me while those I grew up with were had either a Chinese father or mother. *cough* So I knew it was to be, that the time of our people was no more. I had a vision two days ago, perhaps the fancy of an idle mind, but I knew it to be true.”

White Men onboard ships came from the seas, unloading off ships. They vanquished resistance on the isles within a matter of years, killing and enslaving all those who resisted with no mercy or compassion. They came upon a city, it was Baihua, yet it was not. The city fell, and darkness came upon my lands. A darkness that would not lift for almost four centuries, I somehow knew. Four centuries of first enslavement, exploited, and destroyed my lands were. The White Man did not share, or build, or prosper with us, and we were never anything but servants.

“It is much better, much better. Admiral, take my youngest son. Bring him with you to China, educate him. By the Oaths of Loyalty that bind you to the Min Throne and with the Decree of the Emperor, you are bound.”

Shocked, appalled and unbelieving, the Admiral walked out as if his legs were made of iron chained to 50 pound weights. With one final haggard look, he turned his head and saw the now beaming old man in his last legs of life and continued on. Inside the room, the old Duke murmured and fell upon his bed. As his Chamberlain rushed to his side, he spoke his last words.

“China can truly save…” *

*-Yes, I quoted someone with a change in one word

 

[conehead234]

Anything we need to talk about Swiss? Aragon doesn't exist as a distinct entity anymore, and you never replied to my response to your diplo. Provence, however, is a problem... speaking of...

FROM: Second Leonese Empire
TO: Kingdom of Provence

You have not yet responded to the demands of the World. Will you yield Genoa and restore what respect you can, or will you choose the path of desolation? If we receive no response, the Great Kingdoms of Europe will have to interpret your silence as foully defiant belligerence.

I believe that we answered, i said that we would withdraw.

 

[LittleBoots]

@Thlayli - Just so you know, I need a response to my questions before I can do orders and I'm roadtripping tomorrow night and might not get them in until Friday morning if I don't get a response soon.

@ Conehead - My mistake, mate! I'll remove the diplo

EDIT: Can't find the relevant diplo, if you could direct me to it, that would be wonderful