TNT Files - Term 5

[General_W]

Bottom line - do whatever it takes to get us Construction. We can offer more than KISS and are less threatening than KISS. The only reason they have not to trade with us is that they are unhappy about our recent trade with KISS and our slipperiness, so make them happy!!

Amen!

Preach it brother Chamnix!

Give TNT everything, and let them get it all first! We need construction, and we need to keep it out of the hands of KISS at all costs. I say again, at all costs!

gbno1fan has a point also - if TNT does manage to secure peace with the Dnuts, it's possible they'd be interested in opening a second front with us against KISS.
Even if not - helping us into the MA, and working togeather to get 2 of the 1st tier MA techs will be the biggest boost possible in our war against KISS.

We must make this happen - no matter the cost!

 

[fe3333au]

Geesh ... just realised as soon as TNT get into the MA, KISS will know that they have dealt with us !!!

Perhaps we can persuade TNT to take it easy and spend some turns just accumulating gold.

If KISS are excluded from Construction ... does anyone else think that they may attack?

Hopefully TNT have not mentioned any timeline to KISS.

 

[fe3333au]

Alliance with TNT is an interesting concept ... Provo is gone now, but maybe he will return ... I'd hate for that to happen ...

However we should not forget the Great Library, perhaps if a research partnership is formed with TNT, one should research Education.

 

[General_W]

yes, yes, - I've been saying this for quite some time now, I know... TNT is our most Natural Ally!

(I know this is a bitter pill for many – because TNT has played generally poorly, and it does sorta seem like rewarding poor play… but provo is gone, and I think TNT has learned some good lessons in humility.)

But you MUST look at this through the lens of what is best for MIA.

* TNT's natural aggressive points of conquest are KISS and Dnuts
* MIA's soon to be in a war with KISS – and even if that's averted, war with Dnuts.
= Alliance for TNT and MIA

* TNT is scrapping the bottom, score wise and is looking to join with someone on the way up.
* KISS is on top and is looking to beatdown #2 to keep their place
* MIA is on our way up, but needs help to overthrow #1 KISS.
= Alliance for TNT and MIA

* TNT is scientific, and willing to deal with MIA
* MIA is scientific, and needs to get ahead of KISS asap if we hope to win
= Alliance for TNT and MIA

* KISS is well positioned to win the game
* MIA is well positioned to win the game
* Dnuts have struggled, but are looking to make a come back
* TNT is playing poorly, and seems least likely to be in a position to win
= Bottom line – TNT is our most appealing ally, because they are least likely to present a true challenge to our eventual winning of the game​

I think there are more – but that should be enough right there. Let's seal this deal with TNT and try to get a "1 + 1 = 3" type agreement happening with TNT.

At least that's my vote!

 

[Chamnix]

Geesh ... just realised as soon as TNT get into the MA, KISS will know that they have dealt with us !!!

Perhaps we can persuade TNT to take it easy and spend some turns just accumulating gold.

If KISS are excluded from Construction ... does anyone else think that they may attack?

Hopefully TNT have not mentioned any timeline to KISS.

Am I missing something? KISS knows we are trying to get Construction, and KISS will attack whether we get Construction or not. Let's just get this done ASAP - there are not going to be any mysteries here. KISS is breaking our alliance, and they have to deal with the fact that we will find allies elsewhere. KISS is trying to get Construction themselves, and you can bet they would not give it to us.

I don't know if there is anyway to prevent us from getting the same MA tech as TNT. We will put our techs on the table our next turn (the turn after this one) with no accept. TNT can put Construction on their side and accept. Our next turn we click accept. We put our free MA tech on the table. Maybe having it on the table will prevent them from getting it, maybe if we send with accept (which means we have to trust them to send theirs with accept the next turn!) will prevent them from getting it, maybe there is nothing we can do. Back to the test file... but it is moot unless we close this deal!!

 

[fe3333au]

OK here is a draft which we can all add to ...

Hail Donsig son of Donsig

I trust the first Donsig met death with honour while taking some of his enemy with him into Death's embrace.

First some history, we had entered an agreement with KISS sometime ago. They would supply Republic while we would research other knowledge. Once KISS were completed, both teams would swap all we had learnt. Unfortunately being an honourable people we were bound to this as we had signed the Agreement.

Bound by honour, even when we found that they had slowed their research to barely ticking over, even when the relationship strained when they expected us to supply knowledge prior to Republic being swapped.

Well we have swapped recently all our technologies, which ended up being a deal very much in their favour due to slow research rate. A deal that should have been celebrated by both teams, but was toasted by none. It gave them time to accumulate much gold, to establish embassies and to prepare for Republic which due to their trait, can be installed with little anarchy.

So now the mystery of KISS acquiring many technologies has been solved.

To foster trust we have consulted our Military Pophead and the result is that <our strengths compared to other teams>


It is your lucky day Donsig number two.

We offer all our techs, which is what KISS have and an added incentive which would mean for TNT and MIA to swap our respective free Middle Age technologies. There must be a caveat to the deal though, KISS and the Nuts must not be traded Construction by either one of us.

<insert turn plan>

We have a problem though, when KISS find out that they are excluded from the deal, then they will most likely attack us. We require XXX turns to bolster defences and would like you to hold off on trading. This will benefit you by accumulating wealth while you wait ... this will be an unexpected way of building up your army for a surprise assault on your enemy.


Also regarding the war, perhaps suing for peace was a little hasty ... we have a warrior wandering peacefully your continent. We are respecting all cultural barriers, however we have seen things and if you direct us, we could be an extra eye for your campaign.

Let us know soon what your thoughts are ... we are happy to change any part of the arrangement to suit your needs.

This is the perfect opportunity for TNT to not only jump from last place in knowledge to parity, but to leap ahead to equal first.


Regards

Feaurius III
Foreign Minister MIA.

 

[General_W]

Fe &#8211; I made some changes I tried to take out the "look how much we'll help your poor pathetic empire" language and change it to "lets both help each other." &#8211; I think the new language will make TNT more eager to deal with us.

Looking forward to hearing more comments and changes!

Hail Donsig son of Donsig

I trust the first Donsig met death with honour while taking some of his enemy with him into Death's embrace.

First some history, we had entered an agreement with KISS sometime ago. They would supply Republic while we would research and would swap all we had learnt. Unfortunately being an honourable people we were bound to this as we had signed the Agreement.

Bound by honour, even when we found that they had slowed their research to barely ticking over, even when the relationship strained when they expected us to supply knowledge prior to Republic being swapped. KISS consistently abused our relationship &#8211; but our honor required that we see our word through to the end.

Now, we have swapped recently all our technologies, which ended up being a deal very much in KISS's favor. The deal ended up giving them time to accumulate much gold, to establish embassies and to prepare for Republic which due to their trait, can be installed with little anarchy. We deeply regret giving them this edge, but could see no honorable way out.

So now the mystery of KISS acquiring many technologies has been solved. Please trust us that we wanted this to happen even less than you did!

To foster trust we have consulted our Military Pophead and the result is that <our strengths compared to other teams>


However, those dark days are behind us, and we believe a bright new day is dawning for both our peoples!

Now that we can honorably abandon our dealings with KISS, we are free to start something we have been looking forward to for a great while &#8211; A Grand Alliance with the great peoples of TNT.

We believe we both have much to gain from each other.

We offer you all of our techs! (This includes everything you will need to advance into the Middle Ages, AND Republic) In exchange, we would only like you to give us Construction.
Then, as both our great Empires enter the next era together, we agree to swap our Free Middle Ages techs.
Naturally, we will not trade any of this knowledge to Dnuts or KISS, and would expect you to do the same &#8211; although&#8230; what would they give either of us anyway?? We will be the two most knowledgeable people on this world! Think of the glory!

We have a proposed plan to try to ensure we get different free middle ages techs &#8211; and we will send you this plan as soon as we hear from you about our proposed Grand Alliance.

(As relating to Military Matters &#8211; We won't expect you to aid us in our coming war with KISS&#8230; unless you want a piece of the action? In which case we would welcome the help. Naturally, war on our border will prevent us from aiding you against the Dnuts in any very helpful ways- aside from helping you jump way ahead in the tech race! However, we believe all future joint military actions can be negotiated. Neither side has to promise anything at this stage.)

We have a problem though, when KISS find out that they are excluded from the deal, then they will most likely attack us. We would very much like to have XXX turns to bolster defenses and would like you to hold off on trading. This will benefit you by accumulating wealth while you wait ... useful for all sorts of things!

If peace with the Dnuts falls through - we have a warrior wandering peacefully your continent. We are respecting all cultural barriers, however we have seen things and if you direct us, we could be an extra eye for your campaign.

Let us know soon what your thoughts are ... we are happy to change any part of the arrangement to suit your needs.

This is the perfect opportunity for both our peoples to leap ahead and become the dominant powers of this world!


Regards

Feaurius III
Foreign Minister MIA.

 

[Chamnix]

We have a proposed plan to try to ensure we get different free middle ages techs – and we will send you this plan as soon as we hear from you about our proposed Grand Alliance.

A tad optimistic - I will try to test to see if it is possible, but it isn't quite true that we already have a plan that ensures it.

We have a problem though, when KISS find out that they are excluded from the deal, then they will most likely attack us. We would very much like to have XXX turns to bolster defenses and would like you to hold off on trading. This will benefit you by accumulating wealth while you wait ... useful for all sorts of things!

I don't understand this - why don't we want Construction right away? KISS is under agreement not to attack until 104, and I don't see them breaking their word because we learned Construction.

Now, for the harder stuff... I hate our Poly/Lit fiasco. I don't know if my suggestions make it better, because if they ask directly, then we're screwed, but here are some possibilities:

First some history, we had entered an agreement with KISS sometime ago. They would supply Republic while we would research and would swap what we had learnt. Unfortunately being an honourable people we were bound to this as we had signed the Agreement.

Now, we have swapped recently (deleted "all our") technologies, which ended up being a deal very much in KISS's favor. The deal ended up giving them time to accumulate much gold, to establish embassies and to prepare for Republic which due to their trait, can be installed with little anarchy. We deeply regret giving them this edge, but could see no honorable way out.

So now the mystery of KISS acquiring Currency and Horseback Riding has been solved. Please trust us that we wanted this to happen even less than you did!

Just trying to make it seem like we gave them less than we did since TNT doesn't seem to be aware of Poly and Lit yet, but I don't know if that qualifies as just digging ourselves in deeper.

 

[General_W]

I like your changes Chamnix, and I agree - the whole lit/poly thing makes me nervous - I'm just hoping that if we get a rosy, glowing proposal in their hands asap - they'll just forget all about it in the rush of excitement over getting all of our great tech!

 

[fe3333au]

Nice one General_W ... we're getting there.

Question ... do we want to get deal happening as soon as possible or have some time to bolster defences??

Hail Donsig son of Donsig

I trust the first Donsig met death with honour while taking some of his enemy with him into Death's embrace.

First some history and you may already have suspected that, we had entered an agreement with KISS sometime ago. A sharing of research focus, they would supply Republic while we would research other technologies. Once completed KISS would swap Republic for all what we had learnt during the mutual research period. There was then an understanding that the remaining technologies would be divided between us to research and then swap. Unfortunately being an honourable people we were bound to this as we had signed the Agreement.

Bound by honour, even when we found that they had slowed their research to barely ticking over at 10% while ours was running at a gold deficit at 90%, even when the relationship strained when they expected us to supply knowledge prior to Republic being swapped, even when we ended up accumulating all technologies except Construction and Monarchy and were expected to supply all these for one technology for no extra compensation. KISS consistently abused our relationship, yet our honour required that we see our word through to the end.

Now, we have swapped recently accumulated technologies, which ended up being a deal very much in KISS' favour. The deal ended up giving them time to accumulate much gold, to establish embassies and to prepare for Republic which due to their trait, can be installed with little anarchy. We deeply regret giving them this edge, but could see no honourable way out.

So now the mystery of KISS acquiring Currency and Horseback Riding has been solved. Please trust us that we wanted this to happen even less than you did!

However, those dark days are behind us, and we believe a bright new day is dawning for both our peoples!

Now that we can honourably abandon our dealings with KISS, we are free to enter a grand Alliance where those with the scientific trait cooperate.

We believe we both have much to gain from each other. To foster trust and illustrate this point, we have again consulted our Military Pophead and the result is that <our strengths compared to other teams ... blah blah share intel spiel>

We offer you all of our technologies! (This includes everything you will need to advance into the Middle Ages, AND Republic) In exchange, we would only like you to give us Construction.

Then, as both our great Empires enter the next era together, we agree to swap our Free Middle Ages technologies.

Naturally, we will not trade any of this knowledge to Dnuts or KISS, and would expect you to do the same &#8211; although, what would they give either of us anyway?? We will be the two most knowledgeable people on this world! Think of the glory!

We are trying to ensure we get different free Middle Age technologies &#8211; and would appreciate your input. We will send you this plan as soon as we hear from you about our proposed Scientific Alliance.

(As relating to Military Matters &#8211; We won't expect you to aid us in our coming war with KISS, unless you want a piece of the action? In which case we would welcome the help. Naturally, war on our border will prevent us from aiding you against the Dnuts in any very helpful ways, aside from helping you jump way ahead in the tech race! However, we believe all future joint military actions can be negotiated. Neither side has to promise anything at this stage.)

If peace with the Dnuts falls through, we have a warrior wandering peacefully your continent. We are respecting all cultural barriers, however we have seen things and if you direct us, we could be an extra eye for your campaign.

Let us know soon what your thoughts are ... we are happy to change any part of the arrangement to suit your needs.

This is the perfect opportunity for both our peoples to leap ahead and become the dominant powers of this world!


Regards

Feaurius III
Foreign Minister MIA.

Chanmix's suggestions incorporated

 

[fe3333au]

We have explained the Poly/Lit thing ... we were honour bound ... so lets not worry about this ... still cannot see the problem anyway ... Donsig actually states that they were almost ready to sign when they were contacted by KISS.

We are getting there ... will await some more tweeking including Chamnix's ... will also delete all reference to holding off ... I guess we will expect KISS reaction.

 

[General_W]

Question ... do we want to get deal happening as soon as possible or have some time to bolster defences??

I'm ok either way.

Personally &#8211; I don't see the problem in getting it done as soon as TNT has the tech. It'll help us plan to know what MA techs we're getting, and I'm 80% sure KISS won't attack before turn 104.

However &#8211; you're the diplomatic master, and if you think this will be the straw that causes KISS to break the word and come right at us &#8211; then yeah, I'd rather wait.

Glad it's not my department/decision!

 

[fe3333au]

Greekguy also responded to terse request ...

I apologize for leaving you in the dark. We are still considering your trade offer and will hopefully have an answer today. I'm sorry I did not respond to your earlier PM about informing you if we received the document. Yes, we did, and we will sign it if we agree to the deal. Once again, sorry about being so tardy with a reply.

greekguy, TNT Greek Ambassador

 

[peter grimes]

Let's not wait to trade. There is no benefit in waiting.

The only thing to be aware of:

There will be a massive uprising on turn 90, after our turn.

 

[General_W]

greekguy's response is a little worrisome.
Sounds like a prelude to a "no" to me!

We should get our proposal for ALL the techs off to TNT before they tell us "no deal, and by the way, we traded with KISS"

That would be a disaster! Let's get our better offer to them before they make any foolish deals with KISS!

 

[General_W]

our letter may not be perfect - but we should at least let TNT know that they've got a better offer from us!

Fe - if you don't want to send the letter in it's current state of readiness, then maybe just say&#8230;

"Dear TNT,

Just a quick note to let you know that we are very excited to start a new and glorious relationship with your empire.

We are just putting the final touches on a proposal that will get you ALL of our Ancient Age techs and arrange for us to trade our respective free MA techs.
We will have this proposal to you very soon &#8211; but we wanted to let you know it's coming so you don't make any poor trades you may regret with those KISS idiots.

More soon,
Fe"

Or something like that.

Bottom Line: We MUST NOT let KISS beat us to the punch on this. It's too important!

 

[fe3333au]

Don't worry ... greekguy just responded in panic to my rather pissed off letter ... Donsig has already said that we have 2 turns to finalise stuff.

i will send once we have received the save

 

[Chamnix]

I agree with GW.

 

[fe3333au]

One thing I want more input about ... is the idea of stalling the trade.

If KISS are unaware of when Construction will be researched then it can work ...

We are all thinking that KISS will attack ... so if they don't get Construction it will probably be the cataylst.

Are we in a position to adequately defend ourselves in 2 turns when the trade is proposed ... or would we benefit with more time !!!

Botton line ... is that we have the better deal ... unless TNT are playing us (and if so, it matters not what we do) then they will link with our plan.

Donsig said that we have 2 turns to develop the best proposal ... I believe him, why wouldn't we ... he is the leader (well higher in pecking order than greekguy)

EDIT ... all I am saying it put it to TNT, if they agree then are we not better off? ... if they want techs straight away, well then of course we make the best of things.

 

[General_W]

Chatted with Fe on AIM, and I agree with the above.

There's no harm in asking TNT if they are ok with waiting to make the trade.

If they're ok with it - then we lower our risk of getting sneak-attacked by KISS and can really supprise them when we jump to the MA right before their main attack begins.

If TNT is NOT ok with waiting - then fine - we'll do the trade now and deal with it.

Seems like there's no good reason not to at least ask.