TNT Files - Term 6

Good point Gentlemen :)

Drafted again (with spelling this time checked) ... I added the 'agreement' clause as it may arise that in our best interest that we allow the trade on ... didn't mention Engineering as everyone else has it ;)
I'm eager to sent it off as well.

Dear greekguy

It is with shock and dismay that we receive your news of war with KISS.

Unfortunately, we have only just signed the peace treaty that we were pursuing for our own nation's security and therefore cannot 'distract' KISS in any manner that would assist you in the short term.

All we are able to do immediately is swap Chivalry for Engineering. There is however a strict caveat on the swap which is that TNT shall not trade this knowledge onto any other team unless it is agreed to first by MIA.

We can also guarantee that we will not join KISS in their actions against you and are discussing many options in which we can indirectly assist your cause.

We urge you to try and secure a long term peace with the Doughnuts, even if it means the surrendering of territory or cities. We in turn will do our utmost to persuade the Nutters that this is in their best interest.

In the longer term of your war with KISS, we would only be able to irritate them by having units and ships attempt to block their way. However this will do no more than slightly stall their advance and perhaps give them greater reason to rage onto you.

I am assuming that the Great Library has been abandoned, if not then do so and see to your defence.

We feel somewhat impotent at this stage but know this, we are exploring every avenue possible to aid you in your time of need.

May the great Meleet :worship: grant you boon in future military action against the unbelievers.


Sincerely yours


Feaurius III
Foreign Minister MIA.
Click to expand...

I'm proposing to sent in couple hours ... unless I get a hold order from anyone.
 
We urge you to try and secure a long term peace with the Doughnuts, even if it means the surrendering of territory or cities. We in turn will do our utmost to persuade the Nutters that this is in their best interest.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if that reads with enough importance. Chamnix put it well earlier:
...we need to communicate to TNT that they really need to do whatever is necessary to secure a long-term peace with Dnuts - even to the extent of giving Dnuts a town or two on the southern edge of their empire. TNT should understand that if Dnuts attack them, then even if we attack Dnuts, TNT will lose those towns regardless, so if they can get guaranteed peace by giving them away, then it is worthwhile.
Click to expand...

But, on second thought, maybe we don't want to be planting too many ideas in DNUT's head. I'll start a draft of a DNUT letter in their thread.
 
Looking good Fe – I agree this should be sent asap. :thumbsup:

Also – I share Chamnix's feeling on Chivalry. If giving it to the Dnuts will secure long-term peace… then I think it'd be fine to give it to Dnuts. I think it might be worthwhile to make that clear.

Maybe that part of the letter can read more like…
All we are able to do immediately is swap Chivalry for Engineering. There is however a strict caveat on the swap which is that TNT shall not trade this knowledge onto any other team unless it is agreed to first by MIA. If you are able to secure a long-term peace with Dnuts or KISS for the price of Chivalry, MIA will most likely be happy to go along with this.
Click to expand...

Also – I'm a big fan of expanding the part on why TNT needs to get peace with the Nuts.

Here's a suggestion for you.
We urge you to try and secure a long term peace with the Doughnuts, even if it means the surrendering of territory or cities. As we see it, if Dnuts attack you (even if we move quickly to attack them from behind) you will still lose all those fringe towns. It is therefore much more desirable to offer Dnuts free control of 1 or 2 towns in exchange for a long term (50 turns?) peace. In these negotiations, you should feel free to make veiled threats to Dnuts about the fact that if they go to war with you, they are leaving themselves open to a MIA invasion.
Click to expand...


Otherwise – I think it's all great.

This actually may wind up being a good thing for MIA… KISS in a brutal overseas war while MIA techs up the tree!
Even if TNT can't get peace with the Nuts – we may be able to do quite well in a surprise attack on the Nuts – if their forces are all in the jungle. :evil:
 
I won't add the stuff about us warring against Nuts, we need time to discuss this potential action in more detail. Similar reason for not mentioning a KISS bribe of Chivalry.

Dear greekguy

It is with shock and dismay that we receive your news of war with KISS.

Unfortunately, we have only just signed the peace treaty that we were pursuing for our own nation's security and therefore cannot 'distract' KISS in any manner that would assist you in the short term.

All we are able to do immediately is swap Chivalry for Engineering. There is however a strict caveat on the swap which is that TNT shall not trade this knowledge onto any other team unless it is agreed to first by MIA as we would want to know the reason for the trade.

We can also guarantee that we will not join KISS in their actions against you and are discussing many options in which we can indirectly assist your cause.

We urge you to try and secure a long term peace with the Doughnuts, even if it means the surrendering of territory and/or cities. As we see it, if the Nutters join KISS in the attack, you will have to consolidate and split your units to fight on two fronts, this will inevitably result in the loss of those fringe towns anyway. If a Chivalry trade can ensure a long period of peace with the Nuts then we would probably look favourably on the request. We would probably also expect a similar non-trade caveat be placed on such a deal, which would prevent Nuts presenting it to KISS.

In the meantime, we will do our utmost to persuade the Nutters that signing a long term peace is in their best interest.

Regarding options for us to directly assist in your war with KISS, we would only be able to irritate them by having units and ships attempt to block their way. However this will do no more than slightly stall their advance and perhaps give them greater reason to rage onto you, yet another reason to secure a peace with the Nuts.

I am assuming that the Great Library has been abandoned, if not then do so and see to your defence.

We feel somewhat impotent at this stage but know this, we are exploring every avenue possible to aid you in your time of need.

May the great Meleet :worship: grant you boon in future military action against the unbelievers.


Sincerely yours


Feaurius III
Foreign Minister MIA.
Click to expand...

Aside ... I really really want to send a unit or two up there so we can see what's going on !!!



EDIT ... sent off with a kiss

excuse the pun but I could have said with nuts sprinkled on top :rolleyes: :p
 
Looks good Fe. Seems reasonable to me! :goodjob:

Sending units up would be fun - but it has to be weighed against moving units south for a possible invasion of Dnut land - or just watching our coasts for any incoming forces.
 
As I've said before, I (personally) am not a fan of sending units up to the TNT area. I just don't see that they would be at all effective at anything other than reducing the number of units stationed inside our cultural boundaries. It will take a very long time to get them up there. And we'd have to go through DNUT or KISS territory. And the war might even be over before we get there. And they will be sorely missed if DNUT decides to attack us.

But back on topic, I think TNT should know that it is not out of the realm of possibility that we hit the DNUTs from behind if we get word that they are actively warring against TNT. TNT shjould have all their negotiating options available before they go into talks with DNUT.
 
And a reply already from TNT...
We may want to get back to them asap if we want to get Engineering this turn.

Dear MIA,

My people understand your inability to declare on the devious Galls at this time. We will have to wait, it appears, until your peace treaty with the Galls ends. Concerning this, we would like to know when your treaty with KISS ends, so we can hopefully use this as a planning year, to possibly coordinate attacks on the Galls. So, if you could provide us with the information, of the length of your peace treaty, it would be much appreciated. :)

Now, dealing with the proposed tech deal of Engineering for Chivalry. My people have determined Chivalry is not needed at this time, and we fear that the Galls might demand Chivalry from us after the war as possible concessions. Thus, we are proposing trading our knowledge of Engineering for a large sum of gold. Please tell us how much you would pay for Engineering. We need gold and lots of it in the coming turns to rush build units and send them to the battlefront. We will drain our treasury dry, but we fear it will not be enough. How much gold can you spare us, in either lump sum or gold per turn form? Please get back to us on this issue soon.

Bye for now.

greekguy, TNT Greek Ambassador
Click to expand...

Engineering has a beaker cost of 1080. We could offer TNT 25% of the beaker cost like we were going to sell them our techs. Seems fair to me. That’s still only 270 gold.

Personally, I’d even support offering them 300 gold for the tech, “just because we like you and want you to win.”
This is no surprise, since I’m generally in favor of propping up TNT with gold even if we don’t get much back.

However, I would argue, that if we want to get engineering this turn… we’d better respond soon!
 
First reaction ... Stuff them ... let's join in the attack [pissed]

Second read ... I don't like the tone of the letter ... it reeks of pretentiousness.
I was going to send a curt note ... I guess I was reacting to this line ... My people have determined Chivalry is not needed at this time,
How dare they presume that they determine anything !!!!

Third reading ... and that of the General ...
:lol: ... the power of words determined by the context of the read :)



So how about this ...

greekguy of the TNT

Your desperation for cash to rush defensive units indicates just how dire you see your situation, however we urge your fear not to cloud your thinking. Now is the time to step back and view the situation calmly from a distance ... and allow a rational exploration of every avenue open before you.

To address your letter, since you have determined that a straight swap of technology will not benefit your plight, I submit below the calculations we used to place a value on Engineering.

The Base value of Engineering = 1080 beakers
But as it is known to everyone, deduct 462 beakers [154 x 3] = 618 beakers
We will pay 25% of the beaker value which is exactly what you agreed to paying us for tech in the proposed GL gambit.
This comes to 155 beakers round up

In lieu of the situation and our support, we will pay 200 gold.

This may not sound much to you, however you must also understand our position, we have been researching at a deficit to gain the knowledge of Theology and therefore our vaults echo, forlorn in their emptiness. Also I am confused as to why you have not informed us officially of your true situation, the loss of at least one city is something that should be fully disclosed and confirmed .... not left to be picked up when a save has been opened and analysed.

As to the period of peace with KISS, let's just say that by the time that our hands are untied, it will no longer matter for the situation will have resolved to an outcome. Many changes can occur in half a century of turns.

We therefore must stress that in our opinion, for TNT to have any chance what so ever of survival, you MUST barter for the security of a lasting peace with the Nutters, Chivalry could certainly help persuade them.

Honestly, if TNT is forced to fight on two fronts, by the time MIA could mobilise to attack the Nuts, we fear that TNT would have passed the point and entered the zone where extinction is assured.


So I present you two options.
1. Engineering for Chivalry, which you can trade with Nuts to gain a peace, but NOT to KISS.
2. A generous 200 gold.


This is the testing time for TNT, choose wisely.


Sincerely

Feaurius III
MIA Foreign Minister

For swifter responce please use AIM.
Click to expand...

I'm lothe to offer them too much more gold, perhaps 250 ... I see it as a forgone conclusion that TNT will be attacked on two fronts and then Battle Island will allow KISS to expand.

But I need to rave a bit ...
... TNT have played poorly from the onset :shake:
... Inconceivably they decided to extend the legacy of Provo folly.
... After securing a short cease fire period, should have followed a period of consolidation
... But no, the next generation of TNT chose to over extend and grab luxes far far from the core
... A strange stretegy indeed :confused:
... But even more inconceivable was their ostridge thinking ... believing thenselves immune and safe :cringe:
... Not even able to see that their actions were a red rag to the Nutter Bull :twitch:
... And even though they have ignored and dismissed our advice, they continue to approach us in a demanding tone as if they were coasting along with no worries at all ... instead of trying desparately to fend off an extinction event
It is not good enough !!!!!
... It angers me that they seem not aware of reality :confused:
I'm sick of their We Do Things Our Way attitude. [pissed]

Anyway ... <deep breath> ... We have a number of options ...

1. Support TNT with all our resources and might.
2. Attack Nuts while they are distracted.
3. Stay out of it and see KISS establish foot holds on the other continent.
4. Strategically plant our own settlements to gain valueable resources.


EDIT ... just doing Looking Glass update
Embassy cost dropped by 6 god !!!
... If I am correct (and I am as I've just seen that they have lost their furs) , these fools are not even being completely honest with us :confused: ... stuff em ... let's use em' ... and NOT throw too much gold at em cos it seems a lost cause. ... Just seen on map that Furbomb razed :eek:


Positive Note ... TNT now have Feudalism, so the basis for GL gambit was well founded :lol:

I want to send before our save is sent.
 
As irritating as TNT has been, they are correct that they don&#8217;t need Chivalry. For one thing, they don&#8217;t have horses connected. However, even if they did have horses (we could provide them, if necessary), I think it probably makes more sense for them to build 30 shield immortals than 70 shield knights.

While we can feel pity for TNT, they are somewhat negotiating in bad faith. When we first decided to go to Chivalry instead of Theology, they said that they would be willing to trade. As recently as 2 &#189; days ago, they accepted the Great Library treaty which included their giving us Engineering immediately. Every turn they refuse to give us Engineering costs us production and is not making me feel any more kindly to them.

As far as FurBomb goes, TNT just chose to abandon it on their turn since they couldn&#8217;t defend it so I wouldn&#8217;t make a big deal of that.
 
I'm going out for dinner immediately after work (girlfriend's birthday :)) - the earliest I could get to the save is probably about 12 hours from now.
 
:lol: deep breaths Fe!

The only thing I see to get upset over is the lack of giving us Engineering. This is really frustrating &#8211; but I&#8217;m willing to forgive TNT for being paranoid&#8230; they&#8217;ve just been sneak attacked and are waiting for the second shoe to drop.

I think them not taking Chivalry is actually a sign of some good strategic thinking for once!
It&#8217;s just their diplomacy that is terrible! (But then again, that&#8217;s pretty much been our experience with every team)

I&#8217;d like to see the tone of that letter be a LOT more sympathetic and supportive.

Just remember &#8211; if we can get this to go our way &#8211; this may be the best thing ever for MIA! Every turn KISS is at war, they will fall further and further behind us.
As long as TNT doesn&#8217;t die before the IA, they are still of great use to us.
 
I am chatting to Robi_D from Nuts

According to him ...
They were also caught by surprise about KISS action.
TNT asked Nuts for help.
They are debating action.
 
I, for one, didn't see the TNT letter as galling at all. I am furious that they haven't sent Engineering. I think we should send xxxGold without accept, and a letter telling them this is a one time offer. If we don't see Engineering with accept with our save, they need not bother us any more.

Now that I've vented my little anger, I actually think that TNT was doing a pretty good job considering they had almost been swamped by DNUTs. They started building pikemen, they restarted a settler factory (I think). They were doing everything right until our lusty neighbors to the north decided they wanted a Golden Age.

If that's all that KISS was after, this may not last forever. But if the goal is eliminating a team, now is the perfect time, and there may not be anything we can do to prevent DNUT from joining in. DNUT, after all, has the most to gain.

It may make more sense for us to offer TNT a smaller lump sum, and a certain amount of gold per turn:
150 lump
30 gpt for 10 turns, then revisit the agreement.

That way, if TNT is starting to do better, or is close to being wiped out, we can hold back some of out gold so that we're not wasting it on a lost cause.
 
According to Nuts ... they have peace for another 7 turns !!!

According to Nuts ... TNT wrote to Nuts requesting assistance against KISS !!!

Why are we the last to know ?!!
... I forgive the latter, but not the former
However, I feel as though they are trying to gain benefit from us by with holding information relivant to our decision making.

:hmm: They are beginning to show a pattern ... anyone else ???
 
I'm not sure I understand all the frustration with TNT.

They are staring down the barrel of a gun and facing their own extinction. I just can't see holding it against them when they start to scramble to save their lives.
If you'll recall, when we got word that KISS was canceling our deal, we went into panic mode and did everything we could to buy time. TNT is in considerably worse shape.
I think the deserve a little bit of slack.

That said &#8211; I like Peter's idea of 150 up front and the rest paid over time&#8230; but I'm still thinking that the more we can help TNT the more we indirectly hurt KISS.
I think it's pretty clear that more gold up front will help TNT more and therefore hurt KISS more.

The news that Dnuts are not in a particularly bloodthirsty mood is very good news for TNT &#8211; maybe with our aid TNT's power score will continue to climb relative to Dnuts and that will be enough deterrent to keep the Nuts out of the war.

Anyway &#8211; I still maintain that supporting TNT is our best avenue to hurt KISS, and that having an alive and loyal TNT is our best chance at an ace-in-the-hole for making a big game-changing jump in the Industrial Era.

I would really like to see a friendly and supportive letter to TNT with a generous offer of gold for Engineering.
 
I agree that the stronger TNT is the more entwined KISS will be in a war with TNT.

However I question the loyalty of TNT if they do not give up the full picture and lying about a peace treaty is outrageous as far as I am concerned.
They mentioned that their initiative to extend the peace by 10 turns was unanswered !!!

Therefore I am in no mood to send some fluffy <male bovine fertilizer> to them

... any suggested edits?
... is the amount of cash OK?
 
I also don't see TNT's failure to mention the extension of peace as relevant to their 'strategy' of diplomacy with us, nor do I think that TNT has been trying to pull one over on us - Except for the Engineering trade.

I dont' have time to do an edit right now, but I would favor a fluffier tone to the letter, less patronizing. I would also be very firm on the engineering bit:
We are sending you 180 gold now, and will provide at least 30 gold per turn for the next 5 turns as long as you provide us with Engineering immediately. No Engineering, no gold.
 
Just how much gold are we proposing ...

As per draft, my initial is 200 (calculated from real value) ... willing to go as far as 250
Gen_W is 270 (calcuated from base and not taking into account that everyone else has it) ... willing to go as far as 300
 
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