TNT Files - Term 6

[Chamnix]

How many gems are their eastern jungle cities claiming (the borders are just barely visible)?

 

[peter grimes]

Why did you guys build the Mausolleum instead of Immortals - was it for Provo?

just kidding....

 

[General_W]

I'm ok with a ROP with TNT - also - I think we need to start talking with them about the next research steps.

This will be decided somewhat by the discussion in the Grand Strategy thread - but maybe you can see what they think of heading for Invention while we get Theology and Education?

 

[General_W]

No matter what we end up deciding in the Grand Strategy Thread, I think we should really talk to TNT about them going 0% science, and racing for the Great Library.

Tell them we'll take care of peaceful research, and suggest that they may get more bang for their gold by building the GL instead of researching.
We'll of course trade them all our peaceful techs for whatever they gain from the Great Library (unless we need to withhold education for a few turns to make sure we squeeze every drop of tech out of the KISS/Dnuts)

Of course, if we determine that KISS and the Nuts are NOT working together, this may not be as good of a plan – but I'd still like to see what TNT thinks of it.

 

[peter grimes]

I think we're on to something here. They can start a pre-build now!

 

[fe3333au]

Intersting and I would have them hide it by building another wonder

Then we research the Education thread and don't hand it over until the others neutralise the wonder.

 

[peter grimes]

I was proposing a Palace prebuild, not a GL prebuild...

But I don't understand this:

...don't hand it over until the others neutralise the wonder.

TNT are the ones who will neutralize the GL threat simply by building it themselves. We want TNT to get it, so that they will get any techs that KISS and DNUT have traded, saving us the cost to research them ourselves.

 

[gbno1fan]

By TNT holding the GL, we will be able to get any techs that nuts and KISS research and trade - unless we neutralize the GL itself by trading Education to TNT. Even though the threat of the GL helping KISS and DNUTs would be neutralized, we would be able to reap the benefits from having it by not trading Education to them until DNUTS or KISS obtain it.

 

[Chamnix]

I'm not sure we've really thought this through. Suppose TNT builds the Great Library and gets all the techs that KISSNuts research. Why exactly would TNT give those techs to us? In exchange for Theology and Education neither of which they particularly want but will get for free eventually anyway?

It may be worthwhile to have TNT have the Great Library because it means MIA can safely research past Education without fear of anyone getting too much from the Great Library, but let's not be delusional about this - if TNT gets the Great Library, then we are on our own for research.

 

[fe3333au]

Spoke to the graet Donsig himself

An unexpected Hail
donsigw: hello
fe3333au: hello
donsigw: Do you recognize me?
fe3333au: yes I believe it's your 4th reincarnation?
donsigw: lol
donsigw: going to play our turn in a little while ... want to talk business?
fe3333au: so I assume you got our pigeon mail?
fe3333au: yes

To Business ... Listing questions
fe3333au: I have some questions ...
fe3333au: Luxury, why didn't you plant the city they grab three silks? ... was it a clause in a peace treaty?

< Geopgraphical Information >
fe3333au: actually where are you living? ... I am in Australia
donsigw: I'm in New York state ... just getting the library ready to open
donsigw: can talk now ... also havce my tea ;-)
fe3333au: librarian ... interesting

So the Silk Grab
fe3333au: so reagarding the silk question?
donsigw: We have already built a city near the silks ... we need to build another raod through the jungle to connect them
fe3333au: yes just wondering why you didn't grab 3 silk instead of the two
donsigw: lost two workers to barbarians recently
fe3333au: bloody barbs
donsigw: we should get all four silks once we expand the city borders
fe3333au: oh OK ... so there are no conditions with Nutters

< Interesting maybe he didn't want to grab 3 or a defensive decision ??? >

Gems ???
fe3333au: what about Gems? are you close or are they secured by Nutters?
donsigw: We have two gems connected
fe3333au: excellent
donsigw: they other two will be within that citie's borders

<Second City to be razed in war was Gem Central>
donsigw: The Nutters burned the city but we rebuilt it right away

Misc. Information
fe3333au: On our continent KISS grabs 3 Dyes with clever city planting
donsigw: we'll have our first harbor done in 8 turns

Many Luxes
donsigw: one of our war goals was to grab many luxuries ... we have the gems and silks and took the southern incense as well
fe3333au: I assume they are also peace goals LOL
donsigw: working on a city to get wines from the south now ... then we have to hold them
donsigw: yes, we're now trying to win the peace so we can hold these things!

< regarding Peace (and generating healthy Paranoia) >
fe3333au: KISS and us are still talking ... if all goes well we divide the continent evenly in half ... more a cold war really
donsigw: I'm a little concerned by your offer to give us chivalry early if we need it ... heard any rumors that we're about to be ambushed?
fe3333au: no rumours but we are thinking better to be prepared ... and to put our cards on table for you to see

The NutKISSer Alliance
fe3333au: Nuts and KISS are definitely alligned in some fashion ... they traded many techs recently
donsigw: yeah - when we came out of anarchy we were 13 turns from engineering then next turn we were only 8 away
fe3333au: Engineering, Monarchy, and some we already have
fe3333au: That is good ...
donsigw: they don't have monotheism or feudalism yet

TNT Research rate
fe3333au: Do you have a research strategy?
donsigw: we were making 80 beakers per turn last turn ... just loaded up the save ... two new libraries this round!

OK the Great Library gambit
fe3333au: We were thinking of an unusal and possibly interesting strategy that may just neutralise the KISS/Nutter tech trading ... It would mean ultimate trust between us ... and a city that is mega powerhouse in production

< Do TNT have a production city? >
fe3333au: do you have a city that could pump out shields?
donsigw: our highest production was 9 shields

The Plan
fe3333au: well what we propose would be for you to turn research off ... and us going for theology then Education ... etc ... you would generate much cash to rush temples and Libraries which would get the culture expansion happening to grab all those lovely silks ... and get your production city to start on Great Library ... It would have to be hidden and then switched to a less aggresssive wonder before the switch ... then BANG ... you have all techs that Nuts and KISS get ... you share with us ... and then eventually when Nuts and KISS do research Education, we would give you the techs we have studied down that track

< ramifications >
fe3333au: It would mean KISS and Nuts either feeding us ... or neutralising their swapping ... Because we will be at peace with KISS, we would only have to worry about Nuts ... and if they attack you ... we could always pay Nuts a visit

Making clear ... just idea at this stage
fe3333au: Just an idea at this stage ... what you think?
donsigw: interesting ... we were leanig towards trying to build a wonder in that city anyway
fe3333au: can you hide it with borbidden Palace then switch to a Pyramids or something?

Bonus if Great Library race lost
fe3333au: Beauty is also that if they beat you to Great Library ... you can switch to another wonder ... and then we neutralise it by sending you Education ... maybe with some compensation due to all gold you would have
donsigw: I'm sure we could work out the trades in that case - esp. since we'd have some nice luxuries you might beinterested in

< Donsig thinking about feasibility >
donsigw: We can pre-build with something and then switch to a wonder later one - that's no problem

Lux trading
fe3333au: true ... we don't have access to any excess of the luxes in our continent ... Well if war breaks out we may :-D
donsigw: hehehe

TNT before micromanagement Science rate
donsigw: ok - we're up tp 86 beakers and that's before any micromanaging I'll do
donsigw: how does that stack up with your output?
fe3333au: 1 sec

Complete Engineering essential
donsigw: and if we turn off research, we would still swap engineering for chivalry?
fe3333au: yes ... finish engineering ... it is now cheaper

Expanding Empire
fe3333au: how is your expansion going?
donsigw: well, Carpetbomb was our settler producing city and we lost the granary when it was torched by the nutters ... we're short of workers ... and our defenses need to be strengthened

TNT predicting tension with the Nuts
donsigw: I'm afraid the nutters will be quite upset when they realize we grabbed so many luxuries from under their noses
fe3333au: you are not worried?
donsigw: yes I am worried we have only 8 turns left of peace ... there has been no communicaiton between us
fe3333au: I see ... so you turning off reaserch will really help !!!
donsigw: we're concentrating on libraries, pikes and workers - not much room to make more settlers ... actually, it would if we had to rush units ... we just rushed one library ro get furs ... cost about 150g - but we recently raised 75g from various tribes

Idea for a Nutter surprise
fe3333au: well build horses ... then if you are threatened ... we will send Chivalry and you upgrade

<..... SORRY ... got disconnected ..>

donsigw: actually, it would help tp turn off research if we had to rush unit
fe3333au: but get Engineering asap
donsigw: yes - it will be here in 6 turns ... then we will trade engineering for chivalry?

<Upto TNT when we give Chivalry>
donsigw: or will we hold off on that
fe3333au: yep ... unless you want to wait and 'surprise' the Nuts
donsigw: is the plan for us to give you engineering and then you give us chivalry only if we need it?

donsigw: do you know how much to upgrade from horsemen to knights?
fe3333au: sorry not off hand
donsigw: horsemen are 30s and knights 70s, diff is 40s ... I think it would be 120g to upgrade a horse!

< Finally opened the save ... but then go disconnected ... back >

Getting the Beaker rate per turn ... < but then thought I'd wait for team confirmation >
fe3333au: where does it say the beaker informatiion?
donsigw: I just added up the data in the domestic advisor screen (f1)
fe3333au: I think we are similar beakers ... but I'd have to get the Domestic Minister to check out figures ... my computer is starting to slow down ... so can I get back to you on the real beaker cost? ... and we are building Libraries as well ... is that ok with you that I send you the information later?
donsigw: yes - sorry - was absorbed in the game

Confidentiality agreement
donsigw: please keep the info I shared with you from the nuts and KISS
fe3333au: Of course and visa versa
donsigw: yes

Naval Sightings
fe3333au: so did you know Nuts have sent a galley across the straits?
donsigw: yes - just saw it - we turned south to look for your harbor city so we'd be able to trade
fe3333au: thought it was a bit rude of them to turn up without warning ,,, we didn't have time to make tea
donsigw: hehehe ... did they at least bring doughnuts
fe3333au: They havn't answered my query as to purpose yet?
fe3333au: Everyone is getting paranoid LOL

Next Step
donsigw: I will post your proposal in our team thread
fe3333au: re the proposal ... do you want to mull it over and then send us your thoughts?
donsigw: yes - I have to bring the proposal before the team - it would be good if you sent something to greekguy about it
donsigw: I don't want him to feel I'm doing his job!
fe3333au: sure ... we will continue to adapt the plan ... and add your information to it ...

< Confirmation on the Wonder city >
fe3333au: one question i assume that the production city will be given priority to get max shields?
donsigw: yes, we've been working to grow the produciton city so it can make more shields ... it's up to 10s/t right now
fe3333au: good ... cos the sooner a great Library can be built the better for us all ... you do know that it will become a target for the others though
donsigw: we should have furs soon which will allow our cities to grow a bit
donsigw: a target as in war target?
fe3333au: unfortunately we have nothing we can trade you at this stage
fe3333au: oh yes ... I imagine that KISS and Nuts would want to neutralise the Library quickly don't you ;-)

Share Intel on rel Military Strength
donsigw: can you keep us updated on the strength of the nuts and KISS relative to you? Right now we are weak compared to all.
fe3333au: We are strong to all except KISS who are average
donsigw: that's good to hear please keep us posted if nuts get stronger
fe3333au: we will
donsigw: we should be able to work out a deal for gems
fe3333au: :-D ... and silk
donsigw: we have to build a road through 5 tiles of jungle before we can trade silks - and right now we only have one worker on the job
fe3333au: no problem I was just getting eager

Want help to look out for KISS
donsigw: how is your navy? we could use help in detecting any KISS crossing
fe3333au: the logical crossing for KISS is to your east
donsigw: got a ship who can monitor the area?
fe3333au: I'd have to ask Defence Minister

Workers for Gems
donsigw: you know, another thought would be to trade some workers for gems ... we could then use the workers to build the road to thte silks faster
fe3333au: hmmm ... could be
donsigw: we wouldn't have to pay for those workers either, would we?
fe3333au: there are many options

< ASIDE ... maybe we could lend worker for duration of have access to Gems !!! >

donsigw: yes there are - talk some over with your team and we'll do the same ... we're seven turns from our harbor so there is time
fe3333au: I cannot answer that ... it would have to be a team decision ... but I think a fair and amicable arrangement coiuld be entered into

Confirm Next Step
fe3333au: So next step is for greekguy to get back to us with your thoughts?
donsigw: well, he's in the midst of working up a reply to your last message ... that reply is sort of moot now given all the info we've managed to axchange here ... I'm playing the turn now and will p[ost what we;ve discussed
fe3333au: I do like chatting so anytime you need quick responce or share intel or just gossip ... I am usually AIMed up when I go on-line
fe3333au: nice chatting mate :-D
donsigw: yes, nice and productive - please write a formal note to greekguy outlining the basic proposal for building the great library. It will help to generate interest in our team's forum
fe3333au: okay ... anything else you want to know before I post this chat?
donsigw: no - I've got to get going anyway - will talk again soon I hope. Give my regards to your teammates.
fe3333au: back at you ... cya
donsigw: bye
donsigw signed off at 3:15:59 AM.

 

[General_W]

@Fe - Great work again!

@ Chamnix - I think your worries are unfounded. TNT already owes us big time - they are excited to have an ally - and let's face it... they don't think to deeply about these things.

And we just got a note from them - check it out!

To our Greek Friends:

The recent chat I had with your foreign miinister was very, very good. I will be sharing your ideas regarding the building of a great library with my country men. Just wondering what the contingency plan is shoud one of the agri countries build the great library first? I am not worried about losing the shields - there are many wonders available to save the shields. But if we are beaten in this race then we would have no techs to trade for the techs your people would be learning in the mean time and that would put my country in a bad spot. Would you be willing to give us the techs you learned in the mean time should we fail to build the great library? I assume once the library is built (by anyone) we would continue our science alliance.

It would be helpful if we had an answer to this soon.

signed
donsig
GVOTIAIP

I think we should still offer them the tech we get even if they miss the GL, but if they DO get the GL, then the agreement includes us getting all the free techs they recieve, whether or not it is equitable.

I have almost no doubt that they will go for this.

 

[Chamnix]

Lots of interesting tidbits in there

I don't want to talk down to TNT and tell them how to play the game, but they hopefully are aware that enclosing the luxuries in their cultural expansion does not guarantee them - Dnuts can take them away easily by planting a town just outside TNT's borders next to the luxury....

I am surprised they are at 80 bpt - I thought they would be lower, but we can comfortably do about 120 bpt now....

Their most productive town is 9 spt soon to be 10 - we are about to have Athens at 20 spt and we have had 4 others capable of 10 spt

I'm disappointed they didn't reply directly to this:

fe3333au: can you hide it with borbidden Palace then switch to a Pyramids or something?

I am curious to find out if they built theirs yet, but no big deal...

I was thinking about a "slave trade" agreement before - we exchange a bunch of workers with TNT so neither pays maintenance costs, but I think we still have too much work to do right now, so the half-speed would be too painful. I certainly don't think we can afford to give TNT a worker outright (even for future gems), but you all knew I was going to say that .

So, what's KISS' proposal going to look like, and will we throw TNT under the bus if we can get back into a close alliance with KISS? It will depend on what KISS has in mind I'm sure. Despite the lack of official parchment, I consider Engineering for Chivalry a done deal, but I guess everything else is unpromised.

 

[Black_Hole]

Lots of interesting tidbits in there

I don't want to talk down to TNT and tell them how to play the game, but they hopefully are aware that enclosing the luxuries in their cultural expansion does not guarantee them - Dnuts can take them away easily by planting a town just outside TNT's borders next to the luxury....

I am surprised they are at 80 bpt - I thought they would be lower, but we can comfortably do about 120 bpt now....

Their most productive town is 9 spt soon to be 10 - we are about to have Athens at 20 spt and we have had 4 others capable of 10 spt

I'm disappointed they didn't reply directly to this:



I am curious to find out if they built theirs yet, but no big deal...

I was thinking about a "slave trade" agreement before - we exchange a bunch of workers with TNT so neither pays maintenance costs, but I think we still have too much work to do right now, so the half-speed would be too painful. I certainly don't think we can afford to give TNT a worker outright (even for future gems), but you all knew I was going to say that .

So, what's KISS' proposal going to look like, and will we throw TNT under the bus if we can get back into a close alliance with KISS? It will depend on what KISS has in mind I'm sure. Despite the lack of official parchment, I consider Engineering for Chivalry a done deal, but I guess everything else is unpromised.

Concerning the last paragraph, I see no reason to go back to a full alliance with KISS, in my opinion we can fully trust TNT, but I have almost no trust for KISS

 

[General_W]

I've been one of the loudest voices for peace with KISS - but I certainly don't want another alliance with the Idiots.

Peace? Yes
Trade? Sure, if it's a good deal.
Alliance? No thanks. Had enough of that with KISS for one game.

 

[Chamnix]

but I have almost no trust for KISS

We can say what we want about KISS' treatment, but they have been 100% honest with us. They certainly don't have our interests at heart, but that's understandable - they are trying to win the game too. An alliance may not be in our best interests, and we may not like them much anymore, but I think they have proven themselves trustworthy.

 

[fe3333au]

Blackhole Gen W

Even though we have proven to be the bigger team, their constant bringing up of the past is frustratating and tedious ... they cannot even agree to see our point

That is why the wording of any agreement to do with KISS is very important.

An Alliance is beyond even my ability to journey on flights of fantasy !!

 

[Chamnix]

I do have to say that TNT never ceases to amaze - it actually does sound like they will consider building the Great Library... but they will research Engineering first . Anyway, I think there is very little chance that Dnuts or KISS will be building the Great Library anytime soon - they would only build it as an "elevator" - to get all the techs beyond Education.

This will have to be a complicated agreement, but here is how I see it:

1. TNT will complete Engineering no later than turn 120 - they will provide it to MIA immediately upon completion.

2. MIA will provide Chivalry to TNT anytime upon request. TNT can have it immediately following the signing of this document if desired, or they can build horsemen for upgrade first.

3. TNT will build the Great Library. TNT guarantees completion of the Great Library no later than turn 155 if nobody else completes it before then.

4. TNT will provide MIA any or all techs obtained from the Great Library immediately upon MIA's request.

5. If the Great Library is completed by Dnuts or KISS before TNT and before turn 155, then MIA will provide TNT all techs researched by MIA up to that point for 25% of the monopoly beaker cost. The techs will be provided to TNT immediately, but TNT would not be required to provide the gold until 30 turns following the gifting of the techs. I'm open for comments on this one - I think that since we did all the research and TNT got to use their gold for rushing that we should get some compensation, but I don't want to be greedy, and I really don't think this scenario is likely at all.

6. Upon the earlier of the Great Library being neutralized by Dnuts or KISS reaching Education, or once the Great Library provides Military Tradition, MIA will give TNT all Middle Age techs that MIA has researched at that point. MIA guarantees to provide at least as many Middle Age techs to TNT as TNT provided to MIA from the Great Library. If MIA has not completed enough techs to repay TNT in full at that point, then MIA will continue to give techs to TNT as soon as they are completed until payment is satisfied.

7. TNT guarantees the safety of the Great Library. Until both Dnuts and KISS have Education, TNT guarantees that the town containing the Great Library will not be captured. If there are at least as many enemy units within striking range of the Great Library town as there are defenders in the town, then TNT agrees to abandon the Great Library town rather than risk it falling into enemy hands.

8. None of the techs provided by TNT to MIA may be traded sold or gifted to any other civ by MIA, and none of the techs provided by MIA to TNT may be traded sold or gifted to any other civ by TNT.

If this deal actually works, then I will feel more confident of our chances than I've felt all game. I have to say, though, I am very nervous putting our fate this much in TNT's hands. If we do this, then we are ignoring the military techs and relying on TNT to come through. If they fail, then we will be in serious trouble.

 

[fe3333au]

having a nap ... and ...

donsigw: knock, knock: anybody home?

Auto response from fe3333au: I am away from my computer right now.

fe3333au: only just ... hi

Recap required
donsigw: just now posting tThe Greek Proposal in our team thread
fe3333au: excellent ... I posted our chat soon after we said cya
donsigw: the plan is for us to turn off research and build the Great Library while you research theology and education, right?
fe3333au: yes ... and then go beyond education
donsigw: beyong education to?
fe3333au: and then as soon as Great Library neutralised ... you get the Education research thread
fe3333au: If you get beaten to wonder ... and you have some cash ... maybe we can sell very very cheap ... if no cash ... maybe just for some luxes ... or maybe free ... we can work something out

< Current rate to complete GL >
donsigw: at this point we are 38 turns from being able to complete the Grwat Library - does that seem too long?
fe3333au: I don't know ... but we have time to decide while you finish Engineering ... I'll relay it to the gaffers LOL ... gaffers = brains

Still want workers
donsigw: I am also very interested in trading gems for workers. We can also get you incense if you need it.
fe3333au: Yep I hear what you say

Trust Issue
donsigw: ok sounds good - we can keep you posted on our production i that city as we go. We will need assurances that we won't be left to the dogs if we lose the GL race
fe3333au: as we would to ensure techs are passed on
donsigw: not sure what you mean by needing assurances techs are passed on
fe3333au: we have to trust each other I guess ... we are honourable and although had opportunity to renig on word ... decided that our reputation was very important ... and although we feel that KISS treated us wrong ... we upheld to our part of bargain ... so what I'm saying whatever we agree to ... we will do
donsigw: I think I see the rub - if we don't complete the GL we're behind and must trust you to catch us up BUT if we do complete the GL then'we're ahead and you must trust us to catch you up
fe3333au: exactly

< All in the Wording >
fe3333au: the document which we both sign will be worded to ensure no double meanings

Why turn Research off ???
donsigw: ok - but why is us turning off research a part of the deal? surely we can try to build the GL and still research
fe3333au: why bother researching ... you may need cash to upgrade or rush marketplaces or stuff ... we thinking that KISS and Nuts do the research for you ... but if you want to reaserch ... I guess it is upto you
donsigw: it makes sense but seems we get the baest part of the deal - we get a wonder, we get gold and we still get all the techs

< Compo >
fe3333au: so maybe we get free luxes as compo ... don't know ... but early days yet in this deal ...

Why research beyond Education?
donsigw: and why would your team continue to research once you got education? ... wouldn't we just both turn off research and accumulate gold while the other two teams research for us?
fe3333au: no cos it would be better if we go beyond the education thread ... to maintain tech lead ... else we end up equal
donsigw: yes, that makes sense, too. OK - I'm going to work on the post now. I think having gold to rush units in an emergency will be a big selling point.

Many drafts to get it exactly right
fe3333au: I'm thinking it will go through draft forms ... so maybe you can think of compo for us ... maybe a free lux for the duration of the Great Library being active??
donsigw: that should be doable. the plan includes us giving you all techs we get from the GL that you don't have. Does it include you giving us techs that only you have (which we would not get from GL)? these are points we'll have to address
fe3333au: yes ... that way we have partity
donsigw: I'll try to determine how many luxes we can get hooked up that you might need

Lux Chat
donsigw: incense, silk and gems - but we have access to furs and ivory as well. Not sure what ytoou have
fe3333au: well we don't have gems or silk ... all others are present on our continent
donsigw: You mentioned the Galls grabbing the dyes. Is there another missing?
fe3333au: spice
donsigw: is it in your jhungle?
fe3333au: oh and KISS controll all wine
donsigw: I'm assuming you have jungle in the center of your lands
fe3333au: which is Nut lux as well
donsigw: that's good
fe3333au: yes very much like you
donsigw: might mean we have furs between us
fe3333au: in fact mirror image
donsigw: our next city will try to get us wimes;-)
fe3333au: we got furs

I like when other person is drinking
donsigw: and I'm drinking too much beer - can't type well
fe3333au: so not at work anymore
donsigw: I'm at the library but it is closed now

Luxes continued
donsigw: do you have elephants along the coast?
fe3333au: yep and KISS have no ivory ... we are like mirrors
donsigw: we're thinking there is no ivory in Iroq.
fe3333au: and KISS and Nutters
donsigw: and they have agreed to stay south of the Sacred Jungle
fe3333au: yep KISS and Nuts have Wine on their coasts
fe3333au: we are working on it ... nothing confiirmed yet ... but we are hopefull?
donsigw: if the Galls have the dyes can you get the spices?

About the proposed deal
fe3333au: If we have peace then the unclaimed spice will stay unclaimed for duration of peace
donsigw: that's part of your peace treaty?
fe3333au: yes
donsigw: wow ...

< Dinsog appears in all but MIA's newspaper >
donsigw: so, will dinsog make the next issue of your newspaper? ... hehehe
fe3333au: if he does ... he'll get a hat trick

< Forbidden Palace and Defence >
fe3333au: question ... have you built Forbidden Palce yet?
donsigw: no way
fe3333au: I wonder if anyone has
donsigw: the late unpleasantness with the NUtters sapped us
fe3333au: how are your defences going?
donsigw: they need work ... that's why this plan your people suggested may be well rec'd here
fe3333au: we will do what we can with any rumours and intel
donsigw: we could stash gold and then rush walls and pikes in an emergency
fe3333au: yes ... good idea
donsigw: I've no idea if the Nuts even figured out we have both luxes in the jungle as well as both incence on this continent.
donsigw: when they see we're going after wines, too! oy-vay

Incense ???? ... ASIDE - Could there be an undiscoved island of sweet smoke ???
donsigw: You seen any incense?
fe3333au: actually no ... we have not seen any incence
fe3333au: that's interesting ... wonder where it is?

Grabbing Luxes
donsigw: I toyed with the idea of building south of the jungle to get the wines but that wouldreally irk them, not to mention violate our treaty. hehehehe
fe3333au: so you got a continental divide as well?
donsigw: we found one right on the edge of the jungle on our side and made a city close to it early ... then in the war we found another close to the jungle edge oin th esoouth.
fe3333au:
donsigw: we just put a city there after they burned Carpetbomb and Fort INcendiary

Geography
donsigw: yes, jungle in the middle - some marsh in the west north of the jungle
fe3333au: yep ... mirror image
donsigw: wish we could trade maps!
fe3333au: yes ... imagine KISS and us trying to define border using compass bearings ... arduous task


Where is Incense ???
donsigw: there must be a couple incense on your continent
fe3333au: no insnece that i can recall at this satge ... and I'm not opening save ... so I will correct the information if I am wrong
donsigw: well, as part of the peace treaty we agreed to not go south of the jungle and they agreed not to go north of it - the Sacred Jungle is nuetral and we can both go there. I also made sure either of us would be allowed to build cities there. Been eyeing those silks a long time
fe3333au: I bet

Nut Intel ... how good is their map ??
fe3333au: Do you know if Nuts are aware that you popped a city ... if they have been there and the map was cleared ... they will know
donsigw: I'm not sure what they know. Unfortunately we are not really on speaking terms with either the nuts or Galls.

MIA can talk to all
donsigw: I'd say, diplomatically, you are the best off becasue at least you can talk to everyone!
fe3333au: possibly ... but who knows if truth me told ... But you are correct we can at least get replies from everyone
donsigw: They burned Carpetbomb because they sent four mounted warriors up through the west. Don't know if they passed the silks or not.
fe3333au: hard to say ... I don't recall them mentioning anything

Donsig Opening Up
donsigw: so, th beer has sunk in. You asked once about our history. Renaming cities, etc. ... don't htink we ever replied to that one

< ooops >
fe3333au: noticed you renamed silk city
donsigw: how'd you know that?
fe3333au: we been there ... so map is clear ... but then we went south ... so don't know anything else about you
donsigw: I see - and so do you, apparently!
fe3333au: ... That's what I mean about Nuts ... if they know ... then they may be pissed

History continued
donsigw: anyway, we just did a palace jump long ago so we'd have a centralized capital but we decided to keep our capital the same name
donsigw: I never figured out what all the hoopla was about because we swtiched tow city names!
fe3333au: yes ... I recall the naming thread ... LOL .. Provo didn't make many friends in that one
donsigw: he pretty uch doomed us to be enemies with KISS. but from what we've heard frmo you it was really a stroke of genius
fe3333au: Put it rthis way ... and this is me ... if we traded city with another team ... and thought we wre getting a certain city ,,, and it wasn't ... that could be taken as cheating
donsigw: yeah but that's not what we were doing. just swapping two city names before anyone even met. if we'd have been smart we would have timed it so the pop change wasn't noticed. but we weren't trying to foll anyone so it didn't matter

WTH !!!
donsigw: anyway, the Galls tried to blackmail us when they established their embassy
fe3333au: lol ... they planted embassies with everyone
donsigw: threatened to divulge sensitive into to the Iroqi if we didn't pony up some gold. We don't negotiate with terrorists ;-)
fe3333au: Wow ... did you pay? ... sorry missed the reply
donsigw: no - we just got mad at them and were thankful Provo had already trashed our relations with them
fe3333au: did they offer you intel about Nuts?
donsigw: no

< KISS tech dealings >
donsigw: they once offered us a tech deal
donsigw: something really one sided (in their favor of ocurse)
fe3333au: do you recall details?
donsigw: oh, they wanted masonry (not gold) for keeping silent ... This is what I told them: I am sorry to inform you that we do not wish to accept your recent trade *offer*. Tell the cake eaters what ever you want, we do not care.
fe3333au: he he he ... glad it didn't happen ... they didn't offer us any intel ... or threaten us
donsigw: when we were researching construction they wanted to make an equitable trade and then would give us either monarchy or republic for our free MA tech ... they're bats I tell ya!
fe3333au: Our trade offer sounded better ... i bet LOL

So we have very good will from TNT
donsigw: it sure did - and our past trades has laid the groundwork for the plan you have propsed today ... We have worked well together and I think the trust is there between us to pull this off

Unsure if their production city good enough
donsigw: just wonder if we can boost production enough to builf the GL
fe3333au: well we got 8(?) turns to work out the plan in detail
donsigw: we'll have engineering in 6 and our harbor in 7. I am at least glad they do not have monotheism or feudalism (and hense no chivalry)

Hold on Chivalry
donsigw: I think I'd want to hold off on trading engineering for chivalry until one of us needs the tech for war ... why make it easier for them to learn chivalry?
fe3333au: good point ... But we may like Engineering since price stays same ... and it will have good benefits
donsigw: that's where thgat trust thing comes in again. we need workers and you need engineering and gems. We might be able to striek a fast deal if you have enough workers. then you can gift us chivalry if we get in a pinch - otherwise it can be part of the GL Gambit
fe3333au: yep ... there will be many drafts before it is exactly right
donsigw: all right _ I'm going to finish up th epost and go home to sleep. the first part of the nitty-gritty to decide is how many workers you want to part with for gems. You;ve got about eight turns or so to make some. ;-)
fe3333au: k ... we'll see what rest of team say LOL
donsigw: all right - good night for now!
fe3333au: cay mate :-D

 

[Chamnix]

For the record - we have one incense (under Woodridge), and KISS does as well.

I was wondering why KISS wanted to trade workers with us instead of Dnuts. The answer is that they can't trade with Dnuts. I don't know what the exact criteria is for being able to trade workers, but we could not give a worker to TNT even if we wanted to right now.

 

[Chamnix]

Clause 8 to be added to our proposed agreement:

8. None of the techs provided by TNT to MIA may be traded sold or gifted to any other civ by MIA, and none of the techs provided by MIA to TNT may be traded sold or gifted to any other civ by TNT.