TNT Files Term 7 - 9

[fe3333au]

Just in from greekguy

Dear MIA,

Thank you for the congratulations on the successful battles against KISS and D'Nuts. However, I'm afraid the tides have changed rather quickly, as the KISS stack of longbows and pikemen managed to breach the defenses of Grenadapolis and burned the town to the ground. This of course eliminates our current resource trades and will mean we will be without a source of iron for a little while. We have an unhooked up source of iron on our western border, safe from KISS invasion (for now). Here's the battle log to give you a general idea of what we are still facing from KISS:

LB dies to pike (1/3)
LB kills pike (4/4)
LB kills redlined pike and we raze the town
A worker is captured in town and another outside of town on the iron hill.


In the coast near Carpetbomb:

Perky Galley sinks the Titanic without a scratch (4/4)

Also, we are glad to hear you plan on building two cities on our continent, and close to the Keep as well. This will hopefully ensure the Keep's protection, and will reopen our teams' ability to trade resources again. However, we are currently unable to send workers to help build roads through the jungle. We have few workers left, as many have been joined with our cities to increase production, and the few remaining laborers are currently working on other matters and unavailable for reassignment. I hope this doesn't delay our teams' hopeful trade route by much.

Lastly, concerning your intercontinental Knight scout. Try to avoid the coast or any northern region, as KISS boats/troops might be in the area. The KISS stack of longbows and pikes wil be in the vicinity of the ruins of Grenadapolis, so avoid that area as well. If you want your Knight to be a spotter on the suggested hill, I think it would be ok, as I don't think KISS troops can see that far into our territory. If we see any KISS troops heading towards that spot, we will warn in advance.

Bye for now.

greekguy, TNT Greek Ambassador

 

[gbno1fan]

I wonder if it is time to send a letter to TNT appealing to possible refugees.

The goal would be to remind their somewhat actives that they are free to join another team when theirs falls (obviously Donsig, BCLG, and Strider realize this already). Any players we can glean from TNT that will contribute to our team is worth the effort, in my opinion. The more people we have active, the better the discussions. The better the discussions, the better the results.

 

[Chamnix]

I think it's too early - they should still be thinking about fighting as hard as they can instead of hastening the end so they can join another team. I agree that anyone who wants to join us will be welcome, but I don't think we should actively recruit just yet.

 

[gbno1fan]

I'm more worried that with the end approaching, those that are not as active will start to lose interest and stop checking the forum.

I think we should get a reminder over there before those semi-actives become inactives.

 

[General_W]

I think Fe should feel free to bring that up in any chats - but TNT is still half-expecting us to help them by attacking the Nuts. If we start talking to them about what to do when they are dead, it'll just tip our hand and demoralize the poor people even further.

My 2 cents anyway.

 

[azzaman333]

I think Fe should feel free to bring that up in any chats - but TNT is still half-expecting us to help them by attacking the Nuts. If we start talking to them about what to do when they are dead, it'll just tip our hand and demoralize the poor people even further.

My 2 cents anyway.

I would word it something like this.

Right now, we are doing the best we can to assist you, but we are having trouble getting the nessecary resources to mount an overseas invasion vs the Nuts. You also know of our peace deal with KISS, which prevents us from doing anything on this side of the world. If the Nutters and KISS get lucky, and end up destroying you before we can help militarily, we would like you to consider joining MIA rather than disappearing from the game entirely. That way you could potentially get your revenge against KISS and Nuts. Of course, we would prefer it if you stayed your own nation as that would be more beneficial to both of us.

 

[Chamnix]

I'm somewhat confused by the trade screen. We apparently still have a trade route with TNT?? We are still receiving silks and giving them furs. We can give them iron. I don't know if the route takes a full cycle to be broken or something during MP, but considering KISS supposedly destroyed the trade route last turn, I am surprised it appears to be intact still.

Unless someone strongly objects, I am going to try to give TNT iron (with accept). If it doesn't go through, oh, well, but I don't think we have anything to lose by trying.

 

[Chamnix]

Here is a thread that sounds like it may be the same problem... no solution though...

 

[Chamnix]

Based on discussions with General_W and fe3333au, I sent this PM to RegentMan and Ginger_Ale (I also sent a previous PM to Rik because I thought I caught him online, but I guess I missed him):

Hi guys,

There may be a bug with the latest save. Apparently we still have a trade route with TNT, but it doesn't seem as if we should. Their only harbor was destroyed, but we are still receiving silks and sending furs, and we can send them iron.

Let us know what (if anything) we should do.

Thanks

Chamnix

 

[fe3333au]

Had a chat with Donsig

fe3333au: hey
donsigw: hello
fe3333au: quick question ... our trade seems to still be intact with you ...
donsigw: really?
fe3333au: any reasons you can think why this is so ... I assume that you lost the harbour city
donsigw: that sounds interesting
fe3333au: maybe it will show up next turn?
donsigw: yeah, Grenadopolis is a smoking ruins ... I didn't look at the save ... but the last turn I did play I did see the two silks going to you ... that in itself is weird
fe3333au: who took the turn ... I havn't opened our save yet either
donsigw: I think greekguy played it
fe3333au: it is very starange
donsigw: perhaps we should have the mods check into it - or someone who knows about weird PBEM things
fe3333au: my thoughts exactly
donsigw: who was it that fixed the last glitch?
fe3333au: Ainwood
donsigw: maybe he can help with this one ... I'd say your team should inquire with the MTDG admins since your save still shows the trades intact
fe3333au: yes good advice

New from TNT
donsigw: we are hurting more ... the Iroqi are bypassing FI (where all our defenses are) and heading straight to our undefended cities
fe3333au: <censored>
donsigw: Remember how the US and Brits were racing the Russians to Berlin...
fe3333au: yes ... not a good picture
donsigw: It's pretty much the same only they're coming at us from then north and south instead of east and west.

All units protect Capital
donsigw: But we've got all the little boys we can find out defending Dancing Banana
fe3333au: Like custer?
donsigw: Another good anology. Even more apt since it'll probably be the mounted warriors that take our capital ... the Galls are too slow - they are like McClellan
fe3333au: You a military history buff?

<Chatting about Civil War ... snip snip snip >

fe3333au: I big part in Americas history
donsigw: yep
donsigw: well, I'm heading off to enjoy my Friday night
fe3333au: have a good one ... pub?
donsigw: no - even better - I'm going home and play Civ 4
donsigw: and I might have a beer, too
fe3333au: lol ... have a great night and wekend mate
donsigw: same to you!

 

[Chamnix]

Ginger_Ale isn't too concerned about the potential bug:

Hmm, that's odd. I'm not quite sure if it is a bug, because usually the game mechanics involving trade routes are pretty good - perhaps there is a way you aren't away of? Not sure. Anyways, maybe it'll correct itself in a turn (or maybe it is already correct and we don't know it), but we'll see how it pans out.

Unless I hear something contradictory from RegentMan by morning, I'll assume the game knows something we don't - I will give TNT iron.

 

[fe3333au]

Sent to TNT

Title ... Confused with Trade

No change in Military strengths

We are confused ... we can still trade with you ... why is this so ???
We thought that Grenadapolis was only city with harbour ???
We are prepared to send you Iron this turn ...

We are waiting on game administrators to make judgement if save is corrupted.

Cheers MIA

The extension of the boarders of Mezza Keep not only makes it difficult for us to secure the silk, but also indicates that TNT have not bothered to sell off useless buildings to aid their defence ... I'm sure that they could have used the money to rush units at this stage of their demise

 

[Rik Meleet]

I've PM-ed chamnix.

The trade route is indeed still intact, and this is correct. The trade route goes through D'nut and/or KISS harbours. As long as MIA stays at peace with the trade-route holders; KISS and/or D'nut and the KISS/D'nut harbours aren't destroyed and the roads from TNT capital to the D'nut/KISS harbours remains intact -=> the trade stays intact.

It's intuitively strange, but those are the game-concepts ...

 

[Chamnix]

Well, I learned something new. Thanks Rik and Ginger_Ale!!

 

[peter grimes]

That's truly strange. I had been under the impression that TNT woulnd't be able to trade with us, due to the road going through their enemies' territories. Oh well, it's great that we can still trade!

 

[fe3333au]

I was more confused that since TNT are warring with KISS and Nuts, why can they use their harbours


EDIT ... It must be black market smuggling

 

[fe3333au]

I had chat with Donsig ... while not related to TNT turns ... I decided to post as an indicator that others see the game different.

About the Trade still available
donsigw: so is the save ok?
fe3333au: I am led to believe that it is a wierd thing in the game mechanism ... I think because we are at peace with KISS/Nuts and they are connected to you ... that means that our trdae is intact ... maybe like smuggling? ... I don't undersatnd why myself
donsigw: black market silks, I like it
fe3333au: LOL ... well you guys are getting our spare Iron ... all you gotta do is wash the copper paint off
donsigw: lol - should be a joke in there somewhere about an iron fist in a silken glove ... but we're too weak to pull that one off
fe3333au: LOL ... That's goodone matey

Now they have Iron
fe3333au: well at least you can still rush the imortal defence ... So who taking the turn this time?
donsigw: Not sure who is playing. We're about broke, too so there's not going to be much rushing

Donsig Legasy
donsigw: I left about 500g. Don't know what they spent it on. I know they rushed a couple galleys
fe3333au: have you sold all extraneous and useless buildings like libraries and granaries?
donsigw: We lost vbraunopolis to the Nutters last turn ... I don't know if they've sold things or not ... you really don't understand that it's not going to make a difference ... our core is wide open and defenseless ... they only thing that kept us around this long is the Galls slowness to attack ... the Nutters will do us in ... because they are bypassing our only defense
fe3333au: I understand that TNT are becoming extinct ... but just looking at you guys perhaps going out with a Bang ... excluse the pun
donsigw: the only bang we could have done would have been to throw everything at the Iroqi when they attacked ... my team mates did not want to do that ... part of the reason I did not want to play any more turns

Burn while retreat and consolidate
fe3333au: maybe raze everything but the defended cities
donsigw: yeah, we should just abandon everything but the Keep
fe3333au: well to be perfectly honest, from MIA point of view we'd like Keep razed so we can control silks

<I see no reason not to tell them what we are doing ... and Donsig don't post this>
fe3333au: we have a settler comming
donsigw: I'm sure you would
fe3333au: we will settle south of the mountain so when you die at least we keep the luxes from Nuts and KISS
donsigw: don't take this personally, but from my point of view I'd rather see your team go down the tubes

Discussion goes to interesting 'real' opinions
fe3333au: really why? ... and no offence
donsigw: I feel as though the choices your team made set us up for the fall. When the Galls first landed it was apparent that unless your team atttacked KISS we were doomed
fe3333au: you were also made aware straight from the beginning that we could not attack KISS until the peace ended ... so your own fault that you decided not to see that

You made enemies of everyone
fe3333au: But it is also my undersatanding that you ignored peace options with KISS
donsigw: you are mislead
fe3333au: so it was your own teams arrogance that has led to your fall
donsigw: more like ignoprance ... KISS did not offer us peace ... they tried extorting a luxury
fe3333au: I thiugh you or someone said that KISS offered you a peace but terms were very steep ... but instead of offering them other choices ... you ignored them
donsigw: oh yeah, after they landed they wanted something like our three most productive cities ... rejecting that *offer* was not arrogance
fe3333au: did you send a counter proposal?
donsigw: I really dont' think you understand ... their terms were so steep it was obvious they did not want peace ... it is also obvious they were going to make war on someone ... either you or us ... you made peace so they attacked us ... much better from their point of view since they new we were much weaker than you ... and they knew they had a shot of drawing the Iroqi in
fe3333au: that makes sence ... <infact good play on KISS part>

Warlike Stance of TNT
fe3333au: but regarding that war ... how come it went so long?
donsigw: the Gall war?
fe3333au: no the nut war?
donsigw: ah, we were just fooling around ... they took it too seriously
fe3333au: LOL
donsigw: they were really scared at first and thought we had a SOD ... we would have made peace long before if they had just admitted we *won*
donsigw: THAT was arrogance on our part
fe3333au: LOL ... did I mention arrogant? <X-posted>

So Donsig is a main voice behind war
donsigw: when they burned Carpetbomb I really wanted to fight them but my teammates got sick of war ... so we turned over a new leaf and built libraries ... I'm sure KISS figured that out since we were so high in culture for a little while
fe3333au: well you do need some peace for growth ... and with jungle/swamp/ocean between all teams ... a well equipped military is important

<Given up already after first War ... MIA granted you potential>
donsigw: well, after the first war I thought it was apparent we were ot a threat to any one, and frankly I felt we had little chance to win the game then ... but at least it was fun building libraries and trying the Great Library Gambit ... KISS ruined it by attacking us
fe3333au: That would have been great surprise for oth KISS and Nuts if it had worked

<Musing about what KISS upto now>
fe3333au: KISS are building Pyramids wonder what they are upto

<Donsig continues to show us his perspective>
donsigw: despite the fault that lies with my team (be it arrogance or just poor play) the fact remains we still would have had a chance and could have had some fun IF our friends the Greeks had been true friends and come to our rescue. Your team chose Honor over Freindship so I (and much of my team) simply lost interest in the game. That should answer why I want your team to lose.
fe3333au: I personally don't like to play the game as I would chess ... I don't cheat at chess and frown on those that do

<Got disconnected>
fe3333au: sorryw was disconnected

I lost my momentum ... but ... here is watered down and rushed responce
fe3333au: and to say we chose friendship over honour is crap ... We basicially saved your butt when we gave you all those techs for free ... if it wasn't for that ... you would have been an easier target
donsigw: I don't cheat at chess either but I don't see how that compares to this. Doesn't the AI even break treaties now and then?
fe3333au: They do ... but then no-one trusts you again

<Just lightening things up>
fe3333au: and you never know ... MIA may make history by winning in a UN election LOL

Continued
donsigw: So you saved our butt only to let it fry later. Should be thank you?
fe3333au: you made your own choices matey
donsigw: Well, your team had better be preparing to stab KISS in the back someday soon or else they will be too powerful for you to win by any means ... I didn't kame all the choices, this was a team game ... I would have never taken that worker in the first place
fe3333au: our peace runs out in 166 ... we will declare war or not ... but we won't win the game by diseption
donsigw: Deception is part of war and part of the game

Sometimes 'you' means TNT
fe3333au: I understand that you are a team ... I am saying you as your team ... and same when you say you ... does that make sence?
donsigw: yes, I understand

here it comes
donsigw: but we are different. I play a game to win. If I can't win, I don't want to play any more. I'd rather give the victory to the other guy and play another ... it seems your team doesn't really care about winning
fe3333au: no way ... who is winning at the moment?

Donsig playing different game to me
fe3333au: If deception were expected part of game ... why send mods a copy of our agreements?
donsigw: that whole agreement thing to the mods stems from the stupid rules they made for this game
fe3333au: rules we chose to use when playing ... and we agree to ... if you (Donsig) didn't like them ... why did you play?

<bit of thinking time before he responded>

donsigw: I chose tok pay to have fun
fe3333au: but under the rules of the game!
donsigw: even within those rules there is plently of room for deception ... fe3333au: yes ... that is why we will never break an official treaty

<Didn't Follow this ... grasping at straws>
donsigw: this game is not one of perfect information ... if it was we'd all know the map at the start and we'd all know exactly what each other had
fe3333au: I don't undersatnd that ... we didn't know the map?


donsigw: well, there are other ways to build trust besides just keeping your word <what are they ???>

<Amateur attempt to trip me with psychological logic snares>
donsigw: no, we don't know the map ... fog of war and all that
fe3333au: yes ... I still don't understand your point about 'perfect information'
donsigw: well, info is a key to the game, isn't it? the more one knows about the terrain and the opponents the better one is able to plan ... so, keeping info from opponents is important
fe3333au: yes
donsigw: isn't keeping info from others a form of deception?

An example ...
donsigw: for instance your team doesn't want KISS to know how close we've been working. Isn't that deception?
fe3333au: yes but we have no agreement to say that we should give this intel to KISS ... When we did have an agreement in the Ancirant Age ... we told each other everything that we agreed to tell
donsigw: I understand your view of agreements. I'm just saying it's artificial. Your team doesn't mind deception as long as it doesn't counter an *official* treaty
fe3333au: yes ... as in legal contract ... if we agree to something we enter into a contract ... this is the way GA and RM envisioned the game to be played
donsigw: that takes a bit away from the Civ III part of the game ... and my team proved very inept at official diplomacy of the sort needed for the type of game envisioned by GA and RM
<LOL a truer truism has never been uttered>

fe3333au: not really we play a different game ... more 'real' actually ... as in RL diplomacy
donsigw: yeah, I guess you're right. And your team is playing the part of Britain appeasing Germany
fe3333au: Well the way GA and RM promoted the game ... this is what was envisioned ... but I guess we were under different impressions ... and have different expectations ... but we have fun
donsigw: yeah. the demogames did not pan out the way they were first envisioned either. well, time to open the library - been good chatting with you. Good luck in the game. Don't know if I want to be an angel or a refugee...
fe3333au: LOL ... have a good one mate

 

[General_W]

If I could do just a 1 smiley post, it would be this:

 

[classical_hero]

It appears that Donsig was the only warmongerer amonst that team, so remember what happens when you do not listen to a warmongerer.

Seriously, they really did not listen to reason with Donsig so it appears that the team gave up as a result of the early wars, but they should have keep themselves up for war since they were not strong enough, so it appears the weak are going to be out of this game. If TNT survives until turn 166, KISS are in deep trouble with us being able to attack them. Just think of that scenario.

 

[Chamnix]

Well, in some ways we put honor above "friendship" but in other ways we put our own interests above friendship. Why didn't we attack Dnuts? It's not about honor...

Quite simply we are playing the game to win just like Donsig says he is - it is pretty hypocritical of him to say in one breath that winning is everything and then to turn around and say we should throw away MIA's chance of winning for the sake of "friendship". What makes him think we were friends? Isn't betraying friends in their time of need part of donsig's creed?[/rant]