To hill or not to hill

[ShinigamiKenji]

It's good to remember that an extra citizen doesn't only add one more worked tile, but also provides 0.7 science and 0.3 culture (IIRC). When even your turns are in the single digits (let alone your outputs), this can significantly boost your first techs and civics.

I always work first 3-food tiles to get that extra citizen.

 

[Victoria]

Yes, 0.3 culture correct. The 0.7 vs 0.3 in some ways makes a +1 culture tile more worthy than a +1 science. However, I am very much warming to @elitetroops higher science rgard and perhaps that levels things out.

OK so those tables are good but not really useable to list for every possibility but to compare terrain vs growth they are very useful.

We have a difference in how long we are happy to travel to gain a lousy +1 prod at the expence of a turn or two's valuable resources at a key time in a game.

I think for me what is interesting is what 5 pieces of terrain do you like to see at the start to make it a good start. Not your dreamworld that rarely happens but something like

1 x rice in marsh
1 x elephant in jungle hill
2 x trees on plains hills next to a river
1 x copper on grassland hill

...with the city on a plains hill next to a river

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

Some "good tiles" might not be so good depending on the situation, though. Rice in a marsh is not so stellar if the surrounding terrain is all grasslands, for example.

I like having at least a 3-food tile, a river and some hills (preferrably plains hills). Everything else for me is a bonus. I think I'm not too picky. As for good features, I'd say:

• Rice in marsh, or wheat in floodplains (4 food without improvements, up to 6 food after Feudalism, and 7 food after Replaceable Parts)
• Horses in plains (Horses = Horsemen = more cities)
• Diamonds or Silver on plains hill* (mines are awesome after Industrialization, 3 gold on top is just awesome)
• Ivory on rainforest hill (2 food, 3 production and 1 gold unimproved, after Mercantilism it becomes 2 food, 4 production and 3 gold)
• Woods on plains hill besides a river (enough said)

* To a lesser extent, Copper or Gypsum on a plains hill is also good.

 

[c4c6]

OK so those tables are good but not really useable to list for every possibility but to compare terrain vs growth they are very useful.

Such tables can be useful as templates "How it works" or for the general recognition, that in the beginning FOOD IS TRUMP and then step by step the focus changes towards production as the limits given by housing, amenities etc. begin to be reached (can be delayed a bit by building settlers).
In any concrete situation (where settle, where 1st worked tile, where 2nd ...) the tables must be made (or estimated) new.

interesting is what 5 pieces of terrain do you like to see at the start to make it a good start.

For me the types of resources are not so important. Of course I like many tiles with a lot of yield symbols upon. Beyond that I like a high variety of tiles, i.e. high food, high production, balanced AND in between. It is like in Tetris: usually you need all different blocks and it kills you, if you need exactly one or two and get all the others

 

[Archaelicos]

I've only played about 5 complete games, and only on moderate difficulty, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

I have founded on the starting tile in every game. I've never seen any reason to move. In one game where I had not a single source of production beyond the palace, I just restarted. I'm less concerned about the specific resources I can see than about which techs I have to research to use them, and what eurekas I can unlock. I've never yet started on a coast, so I have always either avoided the naval techs, or gone after them when I have nothing else that I can get a eureka on, since I know I won't be able to eureka those anyway.

The more interesting question to me is how to plan the second city. Going coast just for a euruka doesn't make any sense to me if the city won't otherwise be good. I'm usually getting a settler out pretty early and often don't have many strategic resources unlocked yet by then, so it's just sort of a guess.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Try to settle on a Plain Hill or Bonus/Luxury tile, or even a Strategic tile, assuming you already have the unlocking technology. You will get that extra hammer and other yields every turn through the game's end. Try to do it for all other settled cities as well.

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

The second city, for me, is much more about the surroundings than the city tile itself. Granted, given two approximately equal locations, it's preferrable to settle on top of a Luxury (especially if it requires a Plantation, because they only upgrade with very late techs).

I also don't like starting or founding early cities on the coast. There's few coastal tiles worth working (ie. good food and/or production) without improvements. I also don't research naval techs early unless in a water map, often until beelining Industrialization. By that time, Sailing needs only 1 turn, with or without its Eureka. But of course, I won't refuse a city that my neighbor founded in the coast.

 

[c4c6]

It's good to remember that an extra citizen doesn't only add one more worked tile, but also provides 0.7 science and 0.3 culture

And that implies EARLY 2nd settler building: higher reproduction rate @ smaller food boxes, another "free" worked tile = city center, a second set of tiles with additional "best" tiles ... all boosts pop growth (besides controlling the area)

Try to settle on a Plain Hill or Bonus/Luxury tile, or even a Strategic tile, assuming you already have the unlocking technology. You will get that extra hammer and other yields every turn through the game's end. Try to do it for all other settled cities as well.

Settling on PlainsHills is always good, but settling on Bonus/Luxury/Strategic I consider only for the initial settlement (despite lack of tech), because it provides immediately effortless (without builder) yields, but just from 'terrain' & 'bonus' (+ eventual 'subvention') while denying yields from 'feature' (is removed) as well as from 'improvement'.
For the 2nd or following cities I usually don't want sacrifice the latter yields. As the surroundings are explored it is anyway more about maximizing special resources or strategical aspects.

 

[Kelmort83]

Early Trireme are great for exploring, any coast with 2 crabs get a settler.

Working those 2 tiles forever.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

For quick domination victories, I often avoid building improvements. The expense of a builder may not always be worth the hammers that might better go into a military unit. The reasoning is these ancient era improvements add +1 hammer, food or maybe gold. So its important that the city center get that +1 hammer or +1 food and the +1 research/culture/faith that some luxuries provide.

 

[c4c6]

For quick domination victories, I often avoid building improvements. The expense of a builder may not always be worth the hammers that might better go into a military unit. The reasoning is these ancient era inprovements add +1 hammer, food or maybe gold. So its important that the city center get that +1 hammer or +1 food and the +1 research/culture/faith that some luxuries provide.

Ok, ok, I understand well your point of view ... it is only, that in the early game I usually "have no time for war", too busy with empire BUILDING ...
Just in case I try it, I suppose grasslands without hills & 'features' _and_ with 'luxus' (citrus, sugar, spices) or (coffee, silk) would be my best candidates.

 

[Kelmort83]

I believe one of the key concept we are fogetting to speak here are the inner / 2nd and outer ring.

When weaving cities in tight cluster you might want to share a ressource you improved earlier.

Because of this, I try to avoid ressources in my inner ring, often moving to make sure that my second and third ring are well filled. Settling on a ressource should not be a first concern, 2nd and third ring should.

A ressource in the second ring can be use in another city third ring, and vice versa.

 

[c4c6]

Because of this, I try to avoid ressources in my inner ring, often moving to make sure that my second and third ring are well filled. Settling on a ressource should not be a first concern, 2nd and third ring should.

Do you talk about the 1st and/or all cities?

I think, in general the initial settlement and all other should be considered separately; for me nearly all parameters are different weighted.

For the initial settlement I want (as many as possible) special resources in the inner ring, because those can be immediately worked from the first turn, don't cost anything, are quicker improved by builder, can be better protected (should the barbarian scouts learn pillaging ... what they may do in my mod) ...

I see few need to share resources from the capital anyway - sole exception probably the 'high food' tiles, when the capital reaches its temporary growth limits (what shouldn't never happen )

Usually I don't like strong overlapping (multiplayer might change that, but I don't like it either).

 

[Victoria]

I guess it all boils down to the following for first city selection as guidelines. Naturally the caveat of circumstances can alter such guidelines. Anything else?

1. Travelling any distance before settling has significant cost and the real value of travel is not the hill settle but the overall tile values that can be gained for the city. For example wasting a turn to be within reach of 2 banana flavoured hills that can be worked faster can be well worth it.
2. Food tiles are initially of more value until the city grows to at least 3 and get of less value as you hit housing/amenity restrictions. I have noticed the default choice of first worker seems to be more production based so early manual intervention is often required.
3. Power tiles (anything 4+ of food or prod, or 5+ combo of the two) are of limited use for a first city in ring 3 and are a necessity to have 1-2 in ring 1,2 for a strong start.
4. Ensuring city planning works also gives value and consideration should always be given for aqueduct, feudalism farms, district adjacency and city adjacency.
5. A defensible position has some value on immortal/deity initially but should not be a major contributer to a decision.

 

[DanaLea]

Am I the only one who ALWAYS builds where I land and never even think about the possibility of moving?

 

[Kelmort83]

Am I the only one who ALWAYS builds where I land and never even think about the possibility of moving?

It's fine vs the AI. But vs a human opponent you better going for something you can defend easily.

I used to play a lot of Civ MP and "being played" by a stronger player always pissed me off, thus I had to learn a lot ^^

I have not played Mp at all in civ 6, but I believe I would always open Mining ¨-> Massonry -> Bronze Working (chop encampement asap, buy a barrack). just because of the possible rush human are prone to do.

 

[DanaLea]

Ah, okay. I only play again the AI.

 

[Victoria]

I often settle where I stand as does a large amount of the survey. On deity I would have lost against a kongo/sumeria declaration within 2 turns if I had not been on a hill. But I am fickle and rarely live by one rule.

 

[c4c6]

Just some additional comments:
"2. I have noticed the default choice of first worker seems to be more production based so early manual intervention is often required."
Now I have no own experience with c6, just watching people play. As I remember, they used food+production priority or no priority at all. Would be interested to know, whether it works without intervention, if ONLY food becomes prioritized (in the beginning).

"3. Power tiles (anything 4+ of food or prod, or 5+ combo of the two) are of limited use for a first city in ring 3 and are a necessity to have 1-2 in ring 1,2 for a strong start."
IIRC, the city governor buys usually first the best tiles from ring2, so one can expect to get them quite soon. But then all the rest from ring2; i.e. special tiles from ring3 will take too long, those must (and should) be bought ASAN (possibly with a ring2 tile in between).

"5. A defensible position has some value on immortal/deity initially but should not be a major contributer to a decision."
After a STRONG START the defense value shouldn't be too important.


@ DanaLea: for a start you can just move onto a adjacent flatland and settle still in the first turn ...

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

I think Victoria meant that the automatic choice is biased towards production. Often, it's best to work food tiles for your first 2-3 citizens so you get more worked tiles earlier, more science and more culture.