To Kiss Or Not To Kiss

Originally posted by FearlessLeader2:
Apparently there is no such thing as right and wrong, just a big swampy middle gound that nothing matters in.

IMHO, this is at the root of FL2's indignation. It's a basic philosophical difference from my own way of looking at the world, and from a lot of other civfanatics too I think--the ones that aren't against sex before marriage anyway.

But no, I don't think there is a right or wrong, just a swampy middle ground. THat's just about right. If there is firm ground, it's quite likely to be unattainable. Certainly it's been elusive enough that still, after millennia of religious and ethics debates we haven't been able to get everyone to agree.

The best we can do is to have laws that protect us from each other, and be tolerant. I'm sorry if "let's agree to disagree" has become a cliche, Fearless, but the reasoning behind it is definitely not cliched. It's what keeps me from sinking in the swamp.
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If there is firm ground, it's quite likely to be unattainable

Just because it is unattainable does not mean it doesn't exist. Doesn't mean it does, necessarily, either. I think this really is of a fundamental difference in looking at the world. If you believe it is all swampy middle ground, then it makes perfect sense to let each believe what s/he does, and lets just all repsect and get along, okay? If, however, you DO believe there is a firm ground we should all be striving for, then doesn't it make sense to try to rescue those out of the swampy ground? If you believe in your heart that the path you are taking is perfectly okay, but I believe I know that it is the wrong path and will lead into the swamp, shouldn't I try to convince you that you're wrong, and you should take my path? I should respect you, definitey. And it is your choice, not mine, which path to take, but I would not be respecting you if I didn't try to point out your error.

That's the problem with expecting religious folk to just let us all believe what we want. They can't believe what they do and do that. Now, many of them go overboard in the convincing department, and many of them miss the real point much of the time (all of them/us at some time or other
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), but part of respecting them is is trying to understand life from their viewpoint, not what we assume is their viewpoint. Which is of course what we've been doing all along in this thread. I'm rambling, and will shut up now...
 
Hey, Leo! First, I see your point ... and it's a good one ... one I don't think I've considered. From the point of view of someone who believes they know "the Truth", people NOT doing that would obviously look (to them) like lemmings about to walk off the cliff.

Originally posted by Leowind:
... but I would not be respecting you if I didn't try to point out your error.

Here's where it's very hard for me. I see what Leowind says ... but at the same time, to state it accurately, these folks are trying to point out WHAT THEY THINK is my error. Pointing out just "my error" presumes that they know "The Truth" and that they are "right". That is AWFULLY presumptuous.

If someone said to me, "I THINK I know the Truth and here's what it is and it's why I think you are dooming yourself to self-annihilation" or if they said, "I BELIEVE I know the Truth ..." I'd have very little problem with that. The real problem for me is that people largely don't do that (except maybe here at CivFanatics! <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/goodwork.gif" border=0> ). Instead, imbedded in their pointing out of my "errors" is the unspoken thought, "I ACTUALLY DO know the Truth and here it is." Even for the very religious, I feel this is VERY presumptuous to assume that any human has absolutely & unequivocally interpreted God's Word 100% accurately, much less it is them.

I happen to believe that my truth is The Truth of Life as well ... but at least I speak that I BELIEVE that, not that "I am the bringer of the Light and it is so." Anyway, that's my problem with it.
Spiff <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/scan.gif" border=0>

EDIT: for spelling

[This message has been edited by SpacemanSpiff (edited June 11, 2001).]
 
Spiff, you are of course 100% correct (at least, I BELIEVE you are 100% correct
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), and I apologize for not being more careful with my words. As I said, I was rambling...Even us "light bearers" can have an off-day
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j/k

Unfortunately, it is often a very difficult thing for fundamentalist type religious folks to understand that they can believe 100% their beliefs, yet approach the world with it as a belief, not a fact. I really don't know an easy answer to this dilema, other than to continue discussions such as this one in all areas of life.
 
No need to apologize, Leo! None at all! I totally got your point. Even if it's rambling, I usually understand it. <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/wink.gif" border=0> I just sprung off your point to make another. Your word choice was just fine. <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/goodwork.gif" border=0>

To Others: I know I espouse (at length) on many serious topics here, but I'm getting the sense that people may take me a bit too seriously. (Leo: Your post here is NOT an example of what I mean, but it's kinda consistent with a trend I'm seeing.) Maybe because my "Spiff smilie" doesn't have an actual smile?! <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/scan.gif" border=0> <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/wink.gif" border=0>

Anyway, when I'm saying, "Y'know friend, I've got a problem with that POV. Let me share it with you ..." I think some (maybe just a few) might be hearing "HEY $**THEAD, I GOT A PROBLEM WITH THAT! HERE IT IS AND GET OUTTA MY FACE!" OK, OK, so I'm exaggerating to get the point across! But if I ever feel like I'm being attacked, I'll let you know to confirm (like I did w/ Brad earlier in this thread). I'm truly not offended as easily as some may think.

Never take yourself (or me) too seriously, folks. <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/goodwork.gif" border=0>
Spiff <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/scan.gif" border=0>

[This message has been edited by SpacemanSpiff (edited June 12, 2001).]
 

Never take yourself (or me) too seriously, folks.

Very good advice for all of us in here, and throughout life.

BTW, I know you too well from before your *sabbatical* to ever take you too seriously, my friend
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Spiff and Leowind. As you can tell from the other related topics, I do know, not merely believe I know. Given that absolutism requires, nay demands, altruism, it means I have no choice but to shrivel ignorance away with the blinding light of truth, if you will permit me the metaphor. I am obligated by my own sure and certain knowledge of the truth to share it with any I meet who seem ignorant of it. Once I have made a good effort, as I feel I have here(Spiff understands anyways, even if for some utterly unfathomable reason he disagrees.
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), I can let people make their own descision in good conscience. But until the effort is made, I cannot be silent, or I would be guilty of letting the baby drown. (See Guide thread)
 
FL2, thank you for providing a perfect example of the dilema I was talking about. You believe you absolutely know absolute truth, so for you it makes perfect sense to ignore, scoff at, and belittle the views of anyone who does not agree with you, because they are in error. (perhaps not your intention, but the way it often comes across) Those of us who believe it is not possible for any one man/woman to know beyond doubt the absolute truth about everything find that offensive. We feel like we are willing to listen to and consider your views, but you do not do the same courtesy for us. Of course, to you it is not a courtesy but the frustration of one who is right watching someone continue in error. Am I close to where you're coming from? If not, please enlighten.

The question of the day then becomes: how can someone interested in the free exchange of ideas and learning from each other, believing that none of us knows the complete truth, have a meaningful discussion with someone who believes they do know the absolute truth, and everyone else is in error whether they realize it or not? Do you have any ideas for making this exchange possible, or at least smoother or more meaningful for all involved?

respectfully, Leowind

P.S. for the wierd coincidence file: at your last post on this thread, we both had the exact same post count

[This message has been edited by Leowind (edited June 14, 2001).]
 
Well, I do listen to others' P's o V, I just see the faults in them where they contrast with what I know. When what they say has real merit, or I can see it is a notion they deperately need to be disabused of, I reply as appropriate.

I'll have a dialogue with anyone, just don't expect me to ever see validity in relativism. It simply will not ever happen. Relativism is wrong, period. Legal slavery is no less evil than illegal slavery. If they pass a law that says child molestation is legal, I will still view it as evil. If society tells me that euthanasia of the elderly is a good and wonderful thing, I'll find a new society. Relativism is wrong.
 
Originally posted by FearlessLeader2:
Legal slavery is no less evil than illegal slavery. If they pass a law that says child molestation is legal, I will still view it as evil. If society tells me that euthanasia of the elderly is a good and wonderful thing, I'll find a new society. Relativism is wrong.

What's your big hangup with the law? THere's nothing good nor evil about laws. No thinking MR will point at a law and say, "See, there's proof that I'm right". In fact the whole point is that we don't know what is absolutely right or wrong and so we improvise. Laws are improvisations, open to change and debate. They're just there to protect us from each other because human beings are naturally relativist and thus tend to disagree on exactly what you would tell us is so obvious. If we didn't, then surely the need for this kind of discussion--indeed the need for laws themselves--would never arise. We would all just be born knowing good from evil and there wouldn't be any debate.

Now since you brought the word up, I'll use it as an example: I personally believe that euthanasia on demand should be legal. I believe that there's nothing inherently evil about my choosing to end my own life. It's mine. In fact I would be severely peeved off to find that I couldn't order a lethal dose of morphine if I, say, knew I was going to waste away and die from a disease anyway. But morally it wouldn't stop me for a second from walking in front of a bus instead.

Indeed I would do whatever it took to break the particular laws that prevented me from doing it, with no moral qualms whatsoever (though with a very sober regard to the consequences of my actions, which has nothing at all to do with right and wrong). But I wouldn't view either my actions or the laws themselves as 'evil' in an absolute sense. And I don't think any MR worth their position would either. They're just laws. Feel free to break them if you're prepared to face the consequences--or if you're being motivated by a 'greater truth'. Either is fine by me. Who knows, maybe in the final reckoning you'll be right. But the point is: Down here, right now, we just don't know.

One can *pretend* that laws are based on some greater absolute truth, but it's not necessary. Indeed it's often counterproductive to believe this, as society will often evolve
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right past certain laws but won't be able to adjust them properly because of lingering appeals to tradition motivated mainly by absolutist positions.

And just to bring this thread back to the general realm of its stated topic, I'll cite marriage laws and quaint virginity requirements as examples of outdated notions of 'good' and 'evil'. If you think you're avoiding hell by sticking to them, by all means continue. I'll continue to take my chances as responsibly as possible, and based on my own constantly-evolving ethical framework.
 
Originally posted by Leowind:
FL2, thank you for providing a perfect example of the dilemma I was talking about. You believe you absolutely know absolute truth, so for you it makes perfect sense to ignore, scoff at, and belittle the views of anyone who does not agree with you, because they are in error. (perhaps not your intention, but the way it often comes across) Those of us who believe it is not possible for any one man/woman to know beyond doubt the absolute truth about everything find that offensive. We feel like we are willing to listen to and consider your views, but you do not do the same courtesy for us. Of course, to you it is not a courtesy but the frustration of one who is right watching someone continue in error. Am I close to where you're coming from? If not, please enlighten.

The question of the day then becomes: how can someone interested in the free exchange of ideas and learning from each other, believing that none of us knows the complete truth, have a meaningful discussion with someone who believes they do know the absolute truth, and everyone else is in error whether they realize it or not? Do you have any ideas for making this exchange possible, or at least smoother or more meaningful for all involved?

respectfully, Leowind

P.S. for the weird coincidence file: at your last post on this thread, we both had the exact same post count

[This message has been edited by Leowind (edited June 14, 2001).]

Absolutely brilliant, Leowind. I do totally agree with this. Very interesting description of the "problem". I couldn't have done it better; I usually lose my temper during such a discussion; probably because I didn't, don't and will never accept any "religious criticism" on my behaviour. I am not that tolerant about this subject. I do see religions and religious intolerance as a source of trouble in the world. People knowing "the truth" are intolerant. "the truth" as meant in this topic doesn't excist; perfect doesn't excist also. (Well, I believe it doesn't excist...)

 

Well, I believe it doesn't excist...)

That's the key to trying to maintain a cool head in the debate (I admit it's sometimes difficult for me, as well). The catch 22 is that to deny absolutism in knowledge (not the same thing as absolutism in reality-see below) is to allow that the other person could be correct, even if that other view is absolutism, which is in direct conflict with my PoV which allowed for it in the first place. (ouch, I think my brain just pulled something
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)

FL2, I think this may be at the heart of our differences: I actually believe in absolutism as regards to the reality we live in. What I don't believe in is absolute knowledge; that is, that any human being can have a perfect understanding of the absolute truth. My apologies if I'm simply restating what I may have already said.
 
LEOWIND That is where a persons faith has to come in... W/O faith you either become a blind follower or a confused angry person. I think it's sad when I see people who have no faith on what they "belive". And when a person has no faith in what there is to believe, they, IMO, have no faith in themselves, but I could be wrong on that.
EDIT: And on a general note to all, I would like to thank you for maing my first thread such a huge success, and I know how topics on personal believes can get heated, but it's gone quite well...
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Silence Fills the Nothingness.

Even though stuff happens that we don't plan, be a man... use you hand.

I'm in love and it's my job to make other people jealous.
<IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/love2.gif" border=0>

[This message has been edited by Brad (edited June 20, 2001).]
 
Yer welcome Brad!

Leowind-

I didn't say I had absolute knowledge, I said I knew the truth of right and wrong. Anyone can share that knowledge. All you have to do is listen carefully to your conscience, instead of continuing to justify away all those nagging little feelings that something you habitually do 'just isn't right'.

We all have knowledge of good and evil, we were born with it, in the form of our conscious. Some of us were blessed with an upbringing that reinforced that knowledge with learning about its source. Some have had that knowledge belittled by parents by them constantly acting contrary to it until we no longer trusted our instincts, and no longer felt we knew right or wrong existed.

Good exists. Our spirit rewards us with the feeling or righteousness when we act in support of good. Evil exists as well, and our spirit attempts to steer us away from it by using our conscious to remind us that it is wrong to do it. Sometimes the message gets lost in the clutter of our daily existence, an existence whose clutter comes from one that seeks to hide the truth from us.
You won't ever find a person doing good with a glowing sign pointing at them saying 'Good act in progress, salvation assured.' Likewise, you'll never see someone doing evil with a demon capering on their shoulder, jabbing them in the ear with a pitchfork, and squealing 'Oooh yeah, baby! Evil, I love it!!'
But you will know when they are doing good, and you will know when they are doing evil, by the feelings evoked in your heart when you see their actions. And you will know the same of yourself, in the way your conscience treats you.
 
I'm all religious and everything
<----Catholic
But i don't feel guilty with i have
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with my girl. If someone wants to wait till they're married, more power to them. If they wanna get it on in their teens, good for them as long as they don't get pregnant or get someone else pregnant.
If your gonna have
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atleast use a contreceptive (probably misspelled
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)


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Civilization God of War &amp; Economic Prosperity
http://www.civfanatics.com Staff and forum moderator

Elevators always smell different to midgets
 
What are your guys thoughts on people having affairs? A lot of people rationalize their own action about it what are your thoughts? And what do you think on peoples "grounds" for getting a devorce? I think that there is only a couple reasons.... 1) Adultary, if a man cheats on his wife w\another woman she should be able to devorce him. 2) Abuse... It really p!$$es me off when a guy mistreats his wife, but I think she should try to solve the problem instead of just running away from the marriage right away (I am not trying to rationalize the actions of abuse, I just think it should be severe before a devorce is issued, a seperation though is different)

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Silence Fills the Nothingness.

Even though stuff happens that we don't plan, be a man... use you hand.

I'm in love and it's my job to make other people jealous.
<IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/love2.gif" border=0>
 
Originally posted by Brad:
Well... Cornmaster. I still respect you, how could I not. Yes some of that stuff is 'out there' from where i see it, but that's my opinion. We don't belive in eternal hell and torment. When people die, they die to get resurected in the near future back to here on earth, while only a 144,000 will go to heaven to rule over mankind w\ God and Jesus. Not everyone goes to heaven.

Magnus. Repenting in my religion is different then others; in some you say a few words and 'you are forgiven my child' (no offence just explaining my religion) In mine it's a bit more complicated. The overseers of the congregation (Called Elders) sit down talk to you read you pointed scriptures, and by Gods holy spirit can tell if one is TRULY heartfelt in thier repentance and will deal with you accordingly. Sometimes people will be announced as 'Reproved' which tells the cong. that they did something bad. Or if they aren't repentant they are usually 'disfellowshiped' which means that they can't talk to others in the cong. untill they are reinstated.
Leowind. You see it pretty much the same way as I do.


Hey Brad how do you get the figure of only 144,000 people going to heaven??

As for my religious beliefs. I'm quite confused on the issue. I believe in god and wish to have a ncie life in heaven with all my friends and family (hopefully) But some things make me wonder about god and if the church's motives are just to try and keep people in check and scare this **** out of us with talk of hell to make us behave. But scientist have discovered Dinosaurs. But no mention of anything like Dinosaurs have been told in the Bible. Maybe its all a scam or maybe theres another part of the bible that hasn't been discovered yet locked in some unknown tomb in the middle east or something.



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Civilization God of War &amp; Economic Prosperity
http://www.civfanatics.com Staff and forum moderator

Elevators always smell different to midgets
 
I'm against adultry. I think it's very wrong.
I'm also against spousal abuse. Earlier this year i had a party and this couple came to it and the guy got drunk and hit his girl and i beat hit so much that we had to call his sister to come and take him home.
So i'm against adultry on both sides and against abuse on the women.

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Civilization God of War &amp; Economic Prosperity
http://www.civfanatics.com Staff and forum moderator

Elevators always smell different to midgets
 
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