To most white Southerners: Justify using the Confederate flag!

I believe that the reason the battle flag was different than the stars and bars (the nickname of the confederate flag) is that in the heat of battle with smoke everywhere it would have been much harder for troops to recognize which flag was wich if they used the stars and bars because of the similarity to the US flag.


BTW Wyrmshadow, are you big on Aggie football or sports. I live in Austin and am a big UT fan.
 
Formaldehyde:

If you espouse the great sins of the south lying in slavery and racism, I assume you would have supported the North in that particular conflict.

So can you justify the premise of the Emancipation Proclamation, which (contrary to popular belief) only freed the slaves in the southern states? For me, I recognize that the Civil War was far more an issue over general states' rights, which were systematically being ripped from the south.

~Chris
 
Originally posted by sonorakitch
So can you justify the premise of the Emancipation Proclamation, which (contrary to popular belief) only freed the slaves in the southern states? For me, I recognize that the Civil War was far more an issue over general states' rights, which were systematically being ripped from the south.

You fool! We are all well aware of the shortcomings of the American public school system. Clearly, this is just more tripe tought by revisionist high school history teachers.
 
@Formaldehyde,
You have described your highschool years in this thread.
It seems that the memories of your highschool period in the 1960s have taught you that the Confederate Battle Flag represents racism. I guess it was at the time.

But that is 40 years ago now. Many people in the south, and all around the world, use the CBF as a symbol of liberty and local rights.
Even blacks wave the flag today! I saw a tv-production on a Lynyrd Skynyrd Nashville concert lately: CBFs all over the place. Is that a symbol of racism? Or a symbol of liberty, culture and pride?

I know threre is no way to change your memories, nor to change the terrible acts of racism, done in the 60s, while waving the CBF. But it is 2003 now and maybe it is time to loosen up a bit.
 
Originally posted by lord42
It's also traitorous as it promotes succession from the united states.
So in truth the confederate flag is a symbol showing that those who fly it are traitors.
My opinion as a northerner (in pennsylvannia where people actually have the gall to fly the confederate flag, and no they are not southerners so this is a completely racist act) is that the only place it belongs is on civil war memorials BELOW the U.S. flag and in museums.
Anyone else who flies it is a traitor...
I would also have allowed civil war vets to fly it but they are all dead by now so it is a mute point.

You sum up with beliefs perfectly, and I'm from the South. However, I disagree with bigotity that flag represents.
 
Im sorry, but I could only stomach 2 or 3 pages before I jumped to the end.

First of all, which flag do you consider? The typical "Stars and Bars?" That was one flag of dozens flown during the Civil War. Throughout this time, The 3 Striped Red and White with Blue background flew (to the chiming of Union soldiers exclaiming cheating because the similarity in the heat of battle, especially when it wasnt windy to the US Flag). There were two others designs I can recall off hand, one with the "Stars and Bars" backgrounded in a white... the flag in Glory (see problem above) and the same design with a red "triangle" stripe at the end to solve the problem of a windless flag looking all white.

If anyone want to claim the moral highground that the Confederate flag is racist, I should remind you that the American flag flew over that institution longer than any flag of the South. The American flag can be applied to many instances in our nations history of discrimination and racism. So please, if you want to continue with that line of thinking, please go take down the American flag you're waving on your car, house, etc... because its a flag that surely has represented/represents racism and discrimination.


Name one issue outside of slavery that was a major states-rights dispute that made secession necessary? (If you pick tariffs, you're trying hard, but I don't know of Correct answer, of course, is beyond tariffs, there aren't even any POTENTIAL arguments).

States rights wasnt an issue as per slavery or immigration or any numbers of other problem that arose in the early to mid 19th century. Although, it was an "argument" applied by both sides North and South when they didn't want to comply with the Federal government's will. Whether that would be Northerners ignoring a Fugitive Slave law or one of the Carolinas trying to restrict missionaries into the indian lands in their state.

If the south was REALLY upset because of the power of the executive and states' rights, then why was the confederate constitution almost identical to the union constitution, save and except for (a) two minor changes to congressional power to make the president more powerful, (b) longer terms for the president, and, uh, (c) a bill of rights guarantee that the right to own Negro slaves should not be infringed?

I believe this can be answered in the form that the South acted during the war. It is a simple fact that the Confederacy had a much more state based government. A state could help when the government asked, deny assistances for their own personal needs, or shrug and sit on the fence. I wont get into the problem of logistics or troop problems the South had because every state could just ignore when asked.

Added to that, the Confederacy didn't secede at once. Carolina as usual went crazy over Lincoln's landslide election and jumped the gun. The other Southern states after that waited, and decided themselves whether to come into this possible new Confederate government.

The argument can be made that the South was losing its power in the federal government and feared tyranny by the North. Lincoln would win the election and would have won regardless of whether the South had been solid.

(electoral college)
Lincoln 180 0- Slave
Douglas 12 New Jersey + Missouri (and Al Gore complained)
Breckenridge 72 0 - Free
Bell 39 0 - Free

California had entered the Union and the balance of power in the senate further shifted towards free rather then slave. Added to this, the Republican party solely campaigned on the restriction of slavery. By their standards, Southern interests would be further ignored in the higher echelons of Washington. As seen by the electoral college results, the influx of immigrants into the United States imbalanced the balance in the House of Representatives as well. Although the Dred Scott decision in the late 1840s, and the tirade by Justice Taney hinted that the Federal government had no right to intervene in a state issue such as slavery, future lawsuits would never pan out before the start of the Civil War. To further put weight on the nation in the 1850s is bloody Kansas and the man who emerged from that conflict, John Brown. Five months before the presidental election, he storms Harper's Ferry with the soul intention of bringing Guerilla War against the slave states.

Lets put this in another perspective rather then the "evil traitorous Southern mongrels" or as I like to say, the "William Lloyd Garrison" crowd of its a "contract with the devil" (Constitution).

Certainly, I think we can all agree, slavery played a large role in the events leading up upon the civil war. It wasn't just an institution in the South though. It was their livelyhood, it was their economy, it is what sustained them. You put a human being in a situation where they fear they may lose everything to outside interests, and it gets serious. The domino effect of problems in the 1850s didn't help with ardent abolitionists like William Lloyd Garrison and others screaming that Southerners are un-christian, un-american hellspawns that we should cut from the Union. Had the South not fired upon Fort Sumpter, we might have had some sort of situation of an Balkanized America. Northerners didn't care that the South had seceded from the Union. They welcomed it in most cases. It wasnt a traitorous act, nor was there the will to bring the South back into the Union. When blood was spilled at Sumpter, much like 9/11, patriotism saturated the North.

I think I can sum up to you why Southerners would not have released their slaves. Thomas Jefferson likened slavery to a farmer with a wolf by the ears (unfortunately I dont have the source, but it was basically a "Come see Virginia" sort of thing). Thomas Jefferson, a man who personifies this notion of a man who hates the insitution but due to societal woes can't release himself of the sin. If you let go, the wolf will kill you, but you can't hold on forever.

Lets bring it back to present day. For once, when the people got to decide whether the symbol was racist, 2/3rd of the voting blacks in Mississippi didn't have a problem with it.
 
Being a southerner by birth and a northerner by choice, I have seen both sides of the argument. I can see how some would take offense at the flying of the "stars and bars". I can also see how many would find it a laudable symbol of their heritage. The problem over the possible "racist" implications of flying the flag is hard to solve. Many would see flying the flag as a positive affirmation of their pride in their history, without a racist intent. Unfortunately many, possibly most, fly the flag with a less innocent intent. The casual observer is left with the task of deciding which is the case. Given my experience with my relatives in the south, I tend to see the flying of the flag in quite a negative light. If I were black I would likely see it as an outright insult. My relatives see it as a part of our family history. I tend to see it as a pathetic symbol of defiance and a lost cause.......not to mention a symbol of treachery against our nation. I won't fly it but I won't tell others that they can't. I'll just have a lesser opinion of them for doing so.
 
The implication that the Battle Flag is a purely racist symbol is an illusion most commonly found in the North.
 
Originally posted by Ethics
.

If anyone want to claim the moral highground that the Confederate flag is racist, I should remind you that the American flag flew over that institution longer than any flag of the South. The American flag can be applied to many instances in our nations history of discrimination and racism. So please, if you want to continue with that line of thinking, please go take down the American flag you're waving on your car, house, etc... because its a flag that surely has represented/represents racism and discrimination.

What the United States formed to defend slavery?
 
One might equally argue that the belief that it is a race-neutral symbol is an illusion most often found in the South. The intent of the person displaying the symbol is often impossible to detect on first inspection.
 
Originally posted by Norlamand
One might equally argue that the belief that it is a race-neutral symbol is an illusion most often found in the South. The intent of the person displaying the symbol is often impossible to detect on first inspection.

Consider that the interpretation of any symbol will vary from person to person. Can you think of a major symbol of current times that is nearly always interpreted in a positive manner?

I cannot. Most of the major symbols have positive and negative connotations. When we start campaigns to ban a symbol that some (even a majority) call offensive, how do you stop the process? Where do you stop the process?

-- Ravensfire
 
What the United States formed to defend slavery?

Well, considering the concept of slavery was that of property rather then men in bondage at the time, I will go with yes, but that wasnt my point. My point is that I could easily justify the American Flag as a racist symbol with far more "atrocities" then any Confederate flag. It flew over legitimate slavery under its border far longer then slavery in the Confederacy. Hate groups have and will continue to use the American flag to justify their speech. Any number of ethnicities were discriminated against throughout our history... hell look at the Indian removals under an American flag.

Offhand, I believe the only state that came in as free at the beginning was Massachusetts, and that was due to a black woman sueing from interpretation of their state constitution.

Most of the major symbols have positive and negative connotations. When we start campaigns to ban a symbol that some (even a majority) call offensive, how do you stop the process? Where do you stop the process?

You dont. You look in disgust as the fringe minority smiles that they accomplished this by circumventing the First Amendment by banning the stick it flies upon. You just sit down by the smoker next to you as you wait for the next step in restriction and eventual elimination of what you hold dear.
 
Originally posted by ravensfire


Consider that the interpretation of any symbol will vary from person to person. Can you think of a major symbol of current times that is nearly always interpreted in a positive manner?

I cannot. Most of the major symbols have positive and negative connotations. When we start campaigns to ban a symbol that some (even a majority) call offensive, how do you stop the process? Where do you stop the process?

-- Ravensfire

Exactly. Let them display their symbols and judge them based on their actions not on the symbol or your perception of its meaning.
 
Originally posted by sonorakitch
So can you justify the premise of the Emancipation Proclamation, which (contrary to popular belief) only freed the slaves in the southern states? For me, I recognize that the Civil War was far more an issue over general states' rights, which were systematically being ripped from the south.

This is from what I learned in middle school, so I don't know a lot about it. But the Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves from the South because Lincoln didn't think the Constitution allowed him to free all slaves. It was after the war had started and was justified by saying it would hurt the south in the war.
 
Originally posted by Ethics


Well, considering the concept of slavery was that of property rather then men in bondage at the time, I will go with yes, but that wasnt my point. My point is that I could easily justify the American Flag as a racist symbol with far more "atrocities" then any Confederate flag. It flew over legitimate slavery under its border far longer then slavery in the Confederacy. Hate groups have and will continue to use the American flag to justify their speech. Any number of ethnicities were discriminated against throughout our history... hell look at the Indian removals under an American flag.

The majority of Americans where not in favour of slavery. The majority of the rebels were. But now even looking at the flag as a rasict symbol, can you see how it would be taken as anti-American?
 
If I could preserve the Union and not free any slave, I would do it. If I could preserve the Union by freeing all of the slaves, I would do it. If I could preserve the Union by freeing some slaves, and keeping others in bondage, I would do it. - Abraham Lincoln

So clearly the North fought the Civil War to end slavery :rolleyes:

Articles of Secession

For those too lazy to read it:

Texas: Slavery is first mentioned in the fourth sentence.
Arkansas: Slavery is not mentioned at all.
South Carolina: Slavery is not mentioned at all.
Florida: Slavery is not mentioned at all.
Alabama: Slavery is first mentioned in the second paragraph of Section 2, although the preamble contains an oblique reference to Lincoln's hostility to Alabama's "domestic institutions".
Georgia: Slavery is not mentioned at all.
Louisiana: Slavery is not mentioned at all.
Virginia: Slavery is not mentioned in the body, but the preamble accuses the Federal government of oppressing the "Southern slave-holding states."
North Carolina: Slavery is not mentioned at all.
Tennessee: Slavery is not mentioned at all.
Missouri and Kentucky had draft articles of secession, neither of which mentioned slavery.


So clearly, the South's primary reason for seceding was to preserve slavery :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by Kilroy
If I could preserve the Union and not free any slave, I would do it. If I could preserve the Union by freeing all of the slaves, I would do it. If I could preserve the Union by freeing some slaves, and keeping others in bondage, I would do it. - Abraham Lincoln

So clearly the North fought the Civil War to end slavery :rolleyes:

Articles of Secession

For those too lazy to read it:

Texas: Slavery is first mentioned in the fourth sentence.
Arkansas: Slavery is not mentioned at all.
South Carolina: Slavery is not mentioned at all.
Florida: Slavery is not mentioned at all.
Alabama: Slavery is first mentioned in the second paragraph of Section 2, although the preamble contains an oblique reference to Lincoln's hostility to Alabama's "domestic institutions".
Georgia: Slavery is not mentioned at all.
Louisiana: Slavery is not mentioned at all.
Virginia: Slavery is not mentioned in the body, but the preamble accuses the Federal government of oppressing the "Southern slave-holding states."
North Carolina: Slavery is not mentioned at all.
Tennessee: Slavery is not mentioned at all.
Missouri and Kentucky had draft articles of secession, neither of which mentioned slavery.


So clearly, the South's primary reason for seceding was to preserve slavery :rolleyes:

I never said the war was fought over slavery. However, it was the South's reason for their unconstitional act of leaving the union. If it wasnt, I would like you to tell me why?
 
Unconstitutional? All rights not enumerated in the Constitution are reserved for the states......or something to that effect. I don't think secession is specifically "unconstitutional". It couldn't, however, be allowed in the way it unfolded.
 
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