Trading for lump sum of Gold requires Friendship

[TheMarshmallowBear]

From the Greek video you can make DoF from Turn 0, but the difference is that in order to get a DoF you need to have a good relation with the other Civ.

 

[ehecatzin]

I really like the change, I imagine the AI will be updated to deal with the new diplo and trade game, so it should be aware that if it wants to get gold it has to pick a couple of friends first.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Trading only per-turn things sounds good. But we have some 1-time things:
- Cities.
- Great works.
- Artifacts.

Also, lump sum of gold is very useful on peace negotiations and threats. BTW, I assume in this case it works without friendship.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Trading only per-turn things sounds good. But we have some 1-time things:
- Cities.
- Great works.
- Artifacts.

Also, lump sum of gold is very useful on peace negotiations and threats. BTW, I assume in this case it works without friendship.

Lump sum can also be traded in peace deals (the only time you should be trading cities without a friend)

And Great Works/Artifacts seem that they can't be exchanged through diplomacy..only through the swap. [The only way to increase your # are make/dig them yourself or conquer a city where they weren't evacuated]

 

[Xichael]

I often end up trading luxuries for GPT anyways, I play on Emp and the AI having duplicate luxuries or lump gold is fairly uncommon (to the point where I essentially have to give them the gold to sign an RA, followed of course by their demands for even more...).

 

[MadDjinn]

I'm happy that they are trying to work on that exploit, but, as Blackcatatonic said, it is worrying. Some civs just got a very big nerf here, like the Netherlands and Arabia. Also, Russia (I love to play as them because you can improve a horse tile and get 8 strategics to trade with your neighbours, as it doesn't sacrifice happiness for REX and can be divided between AIs if they don't have enough money). Tradition just got another nerf, which is a shame, because I just started tradition openings again, after a long time with Liberty. Even though I'm sure they'll change the Netherlands' and Arabia's UA, I will miss the lump sums a lot. Indonesia and Portugal now feel a bit less interesting as well.

Neither the Dutch nor Arabia got 'nerfed'. A "playstyle" that a lot of players used got 'nerfed' and now people will have to work a bit harder to get things done (especially early game). That's a good thing.

The Dutch can still trade their luxuries 1-1 and end up with +2 happiness from the deal or sell it for gpt. Arabia can still shop around their extra luxuries and gain extra happiness or gpt. So there are no problems there.

Now the AIs will have their gold to use for themselves and you can happily DoW and break gpt deals without feeling like you're 'exploiting' them.

The 'sell all and then DoW exploit' is also basically wiped out, unless you're doing that to a DoF friend. At which point there's plenty of diplo hate coming your way (both normal warmongering and DoWing a DoF - both of which already occurred in G&K).

The endgame 'sell everything to each and every AI and buy CSs for the diplo win' is also basically broken here, though the Diplo VC is actually a bit more protected from that due to the changes to how it works.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Neither the Dutch nor Arabia got 'nerfed'. A "playstyle" that a lot of players used got 'nerfed' and now people will have to work a bit harder to get things done (especially early game). That's a good thing.

The Dutch can still trade their luxuries 1-1 and end up with +2 happiness from the deal or sell it for gpt. Arabia can still shop around their extra luxuries and gain extra happiness or gpt. So there are no problems there.

Now the AIs will have their gold to use for themselves and you can happily DoW and break gpt deals without feeling like you're 'exploiting' them.

The 'sell all and then DoW exploit' is also basically wiped out, unless you're doing that to a DoF friend. At which point there's plenty of diplo hate coming your way (both normal warmongering and DoWing a DoF - both of which already occurred in G&K).

The endgame 'sell everything to each and every AI and buy CSs for the diplo win' is also basically broken here, though the Diplo VC is actually a bit more protected from that due to the changes to how it works.

Actually.. the changes in DiploVictory do seem very interesting.
I believe I saw a screen where the player was voting for themselves (and since your 'diplo successes' add to your delegate count that makes sense)

Because of the rewards for 'not quite', It seems that if you Don't want another player to Diplo Win, You need to Vote for civs who would not be #1 or #2 from their own delegates (so as to prevent the top people from getting the vote) but not for someone who would win with that.
[essentially voting for #3 or #4 in the 'self-delegate' count]

So it seems like a "miscalculation" by players who are trying to win is what is needed (ie we accidentally gave you enough votes to win..instead of enough votes to replace the winner)

also, if a 2/3 requirement is necessary, then as time goes on, it becomes harder and harder to reach (the delegates become more and more split up 50/50 from those failed World Leader rounds)

 

[Barathor]

Wow, this is fantastic news!

Hopefully, they rebalance the AI's value of lump sum gold vs. GPT as well.

 

[Petiscator]

Neither the Dutch nor Arabia got 'nerfed'. A "playstyle" that a lot of players used got 'nerfed' and now people will have to work a bit harder to get things done (especially early game). That's a good thing.

The Dutch can still trade their luxuries 1-1 and end up with +2 happiness from the deal or sell it for gpt. Arabia can still shop around their extra luxuries and gain extra happiness or gpt. So there are no problems there.

Now the AIs will have their gold to use for themselves and you can happily DoW and break gpt deals without feeling like you're 'exploiting' them.

The 'sell all and then DoW exploit' is also basically wiped out, unless you're doing that to a DoF friend. At which point there's plenty of diplo hate coming your way (both normal warmongering and DoWing a DoF - both of which already occurred in G&K).

The endgame 'sell everything to each and every AI and buy CSs for the diplo win' is also basically broken here, though the Diplo VC is actually a bit more protected from that due to the changes to how it works.

I know that these exploits are being fixed and I agree that it is a good thing. On the other hand, I really feel like some trading civs are getting nerfed. Netherlands is great for an early expansion, their UA allows them that by selling their luxes. Getting the lump sum is much better than gpt early on, because it is the time when you buy your settlers. Arabia has a simillar "nerf", but their bazaar comes later, so it isn't hurt too much, and Russia is also a bit hurt in the early game. On the other hand, I hope that friendships are easier to get and that the AI is less of a psycho, if so, then the change is great and I have no complains. I understand that it is a playstyle a lot of people is used to it, but it works so well with some civs I'll have troubles getting used to this new mechanic, as I'm usually a big trader because it gets quick money, while gpt takes some time to add. Rush buying shall be a bit more difficult.

Looking on the bright side, I hope this makes DOFs more valuable. This might be a good change, I'm just worried about how it affects some traders around there. I guess I'll have to play the game before, then.

-Also, MadDjinn, you make some awesome videos! Nice to talk to you here!

 

[JSMCAG]

Indonesia and Portugal now feel a bit less interesting as well.

I kinda see why you'd say that of Indonesia, but not for Portugal. The way I see it, they've just barred another way to get gold. This means that the only reliable way to get it is, essentially, International Trade Routes (there are other ways too, like Religion, but let's simplify things for the sake of argument).

Obviously, this means that civilizations with gold bonus, like Portugal and Morocco (and to a lesser extent, Indonesia, Arabia, Carthage, and I guess Germany and The Ottomans), will have a huge advantage when it comes to their economy.

Portugal, on top of their UA, even have the Nau, which means they will still get their lump sum of gold (without having to trade anything away, even!), being the only civilization that can still have it at will (starting at the Renascence Era). There are only three other ways I'm seeing where it is possible to get a sizable amount of gold - Great Merchants, Mausoleum of Halicarnassus, and Initiation Rites, and those are either limited to Great People, or rely on Religion spread (there's also El Dorado, but it's rare and broken, so I won't count it. As a side note, the Spanish do also get a lump of gold for Natural Wonders, but that relies on luck).

Obviously, this is over simplified, as I didn't count Declarations of Friendship and all that, but my point stands - in general, if getting gold is harder, then having a bonus to gold generation will be even better.

 

[AriochIV]

I think the change is good in general, as it prevents getting free gold from an unfriendly civilization you're about to attack, but not being able to pay 25 gold for an embassy is unfortunate.

 

[MadDjinn]

you do have a point in there --- If you want straight lump sum gold, then great merchants are not a bad thing anymore.

Plus, Sweden's big influence bump for handing a GP to a CS is more attractive due to the lack of mass AI banks to get the money from them.

I'm sure there's other benefits that come out of this change as well

 

[Petiscator]

I kinda see why you'd say that of Indonesia, but not for Portugal. The way I see it, they've just barred another way to get gold. This means that the only reliable way to get it is, essentially, International Trade Routes (there are other ways too, like Religion, but let's simplify things for the sake of argument).

Obviously, this means that civilizations with gold bonus, like Portugal and Morocco (and to a lesser extent, Indonesia, Arabia, Carthage, and I guess Germany and The Ottomans), will have a huge advantage when it comes to their economy.

Portugal, on top of their UA, even have the Nau, which means they will still get their lump sum of gold (without having to trade anything away, even!), being the only civilization that can still have it at will (starting at the Renascence Era). There are only three other ways I'm seeing where it is possible to get a sizable amount of gold - Great Merchants, Mausoleum of Halicarnassus, and Initiation Rites, and those are either limited to Great People, or rely on Religion spread (there's also El Dorado, but it's rare and broken, so I won't count it. As a side note, the Spanish do also get a lump of gold for Natural Wonders, but that relies on luck).

Obviously, this is over simplified, as I didn't count Declarations of Friendship and all that, but my point stands - in general, if getting gold is harder, then having a bonus to gold generation will be even better.

With Portugal, I mean the trading from the Feitoria. But I see your point and I understand, gpt seems more valuable. Heck, you guys convinced me, this seems like a good change. ITR gives quite some gpt, so I think the amount of gpt the civs will be getting shall go up, so rush buys won't be hurt at all. I guess I'm just too used to this playstyle. Now that you point the fact that the Nau will be one of the few ways of getting lump sums, it indeed makes Portugal much more interesting! They were on my top list and I had high expectations for the Feitoria, then I heard about the DOF requirement for trading. Then again, I think I'll have to play the game before I overthink these stuff.

 

[Petiscator]

you do have a point in there --- If you want straight lump sum gold, then great merchants are not a bad thing anymore.

Plus, Sweden's big influence bump for handing a GP to a CS is more attractive due to the lack of mass AI banks to get the money from them.

I'm sure there's other benefits that come out of this change as well

Good point. Like if Sweden needed more bonuses, these guys rule!

 

[JSMCAG]

That reminds me - have we had confirmation that the Feitoria's copy of resources are tradable? I surely hope it is, otherwise it's kinda stupid to receive two copies from Allied City-States...

 

[Petiscator]

That reminds me - have we had confirmation that the Feitoria's copy of resources are tradable? I surely hope it is, otherwise it's kinda stupid to receive two copies from Allied City-States...

I think that they are. Why would they receive two copies, then? I guess it counts as a resource you possess, and not the CS.

 

[Halcyan2]

It's gonna make trading a lot less common. You can't just sell resources when you're desperate for money, you need to wait until the AI has enough gold per turn before you can trade, open borders are only gonna be 30 gold now and it'd be impossible to sell embassies (unless they changed the time a deal is active from 30 turns to 25 turns or something) and it'd probably also not be good for civs that have trade related abilities like the Dutch and the Arabs (unless they've been reworked).

So what do you people think about this change? More good than bad or the other way around?

I like this change. It makes peaceful games and/or having DoF's more worthwhile, so I think that's a definite plus. You can still trade luxuries w/o DoF's, you'll just need to take GPT instead.

Welp, looks like Liberty just got a whole lot better. Much of the strength of Tradition is being able to buy your way to 4 cities quickly but you're not going to be able to do that anymore.

I will withhold judgement until I play the game but for now I'm wary of this change. I love discouraging people from exploiting the AI by declaring war to break a trade but I am going to miss buying settlers with lump sums dearly.

You can still do this. You just need some DoF's.

Tradition civs have an easier time getting DoF's than Liberty civs. Civs respond better to you having fewer cities. Plus, it decreases border conflicts and increases distance between the civs.

DoFs happen any time. You might be thinking of Defensive Pacts.

Yeah sorry, I think you're going to need at least Writing to make DoFs.

From the Greek video you can make DoF from Turn 0, but the difference is that in order to get a DoF you need to have a good relation with the other Civ.

Currently there is no tech requirement to make DoF's. *However*, you have to wait a certain amount of time (usually about 20-30 turns) from the time you first meet a civ, before they are willing to DoF you. Before that time, they won't accept a DoF regardless of how many positive modifiers you have (the response is along the lines of "Sorry but making such a declaration is premature since we don't know you well enough").

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

People need to remember that just because lump gold is more restricted, doesn't mean the AI won't have as much gold, Portugal can have up and more than +20 gold per turn from a single international trade route now.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I think the change is good in general, as it prevents getting free gold from an unfriendly civilization you're about to attack, but not being able to pay 25 gold for an embassy is unfortunate.

You can give 1 gpt if you really want that embassy.
OR
You can trade Embassy for Embassy

 

[zippysguitar]

Selling everything to rush buy archers/walls to defend against an early DoW is off the menu then