trikos
Chieftain
Cool avatar, Jurimax. Nice work, Misfit.
Training game emphasizing trading - Emperor
- Thread starter trikos
- Start date
oopsy poopsy said:
Here they are (excluding plarq's as I can't find his .sav file):
Next steps: take a look at the steps and the saves (which I have zipped up for easy access) do your own analysis, pick a favorite and post your reasons.
The Trikos01 Saves
@J-max, great dotmap.
We might want to add another fiishing village in the north but that can wait unti we settle the interior. Fishing villes ae always late additions anyway.oopsy said:
The short answer is yes.
Yet we don't necessarily lose by that.
The key is "at a profit". If the AI sell it to each other for chump change, it is their loss, not ours, because then we buy it at last prices rather than second prices, so our investment is smaller than it otherwise would have been.
My nose will turn red and flames shoot out of my ears when I see somebody buy a monopoly tech and mortgage the economy to do it and there are no reasonable third/fourth/fifth parties to the trade.
Before buying a monopoly tech check everybody else's cash and tech postion and identify your prospects and what can be gained. Then do the deal(s), working your way across the parties until you have squeezed all the juice from the pomegranate.
Jurimax
Duke of Flanders
@bede
there's a mistake in the spreadsheet:
oopsy has only one Curragh but two Warriors
there's a mistake in the spreadsheet:
oopsy has only one Curragh but two Warriors
Jurimax
Duke of Flanders
To choose is to loose...
trikos:
Sea exploration: +1 (2 Curraghs)
Land exploration: 0 (could be better)
Settler present: +2 (since you guys like my dotmap the Settler is only one tile away from a city location)
Luxury connected: +1 (spares us some income)
Treasury 133g: 0 (not the highest of the lot)
Net income 8gpt: 0 (most of the team got this)
oopsy:
Sea exploration: 0 (could be better)
Land exploration: +1 (2 Warriors)
Settler present: +2 (since you guys like my dotmap the Settler is only one tile away from a city location)
Luxury connected: -1 (costs us money)
Treasury 128g: 0 (not the highest of the lot)
Net income 6gpt: -1 (I got 6gpt after adjusting the slider, lux at 20% because a: no MP b: Ivory not connected)
Jurimax:
Sea exploration: 0 (could be better)
Land exploration: +1 (2 Warriors)
Settler present: +1 (the Settler needs more moves to get to a city location)
Luxury connected: +1 (spares us some income)
Treasury 154g: +1 (the highest of the lot, allthough some luck was involved)
Net income 8gpt: 0 (most of the team got this)
dl123654:
Sea exploration: +1 (2 Curraghs)
Land exploration: 0 (could be better)
Settler present: -1 (could mean the difference in the long run)
Luxury connected: +1 (spares us some income)
Treasury 149g: +1 (among the highest of the lot)
Net income 8gpt: +1 (highest of the team)
bede:
Sea exploration: +1 (2 Curraghs)
Land exploration: -1 (only exploration done by Settler)
Settler present: +1 (the Settler needs more moves to get to a city location)
Luxury connected: -1 (costs us some income)
Treasury 140g: 0 (not the highest of the lot)
Net income 8gpt: 0 (most of the team got this)
peacemonger:
Sea exploration: +1 (2 Curraghs)
Land exploration: 0 (could be better)
Settler present: +1 (the Settler needs more moves to get to a city location)
Luxury connected: +1 (spares us some income)
Treasury 140g: 0 (not the highest of the lot)
Net income 8gpt: 0 (most of the team got this)
trikos:
Sea exploration: +1 (2 Curraghs)
Land exploration: 0 (could be better)
Settler present: +2 (since you guys like my dotmap the Settler is only one tile away from a city location)
Luxury connected: +1 (spares us some income)
Treasury 133g: 0 (not the highest of the lot)
Net income 8gpt: 0 (most of the team got this)
oopsy:
Sea exploration: 0 (could be better)
Land exploration: +1 (2 Warriors)
Settler present: +2 (since you guys like my dotmap the Settler is only one tile away from a city location)
Luxury connected: -1 (costs us money)
Treasury 128g: 0 (not the highest of the lot)
Net income 6gpt: -1 (I got 6gpt after adjusting the slider, lux at 20% because a: no MP b: Ivory not connected)
Jurimax:
Sea exploration: 0 (could be better)
Land exploration: +1 (2 Warriors)
Settler present: +1 (the Settler needs more moves to get to a city location)
Luxury connected: +1 (spares us some income)
Treasury 154g: +1 (the highest of the lot, allthough some luck was involved)
Net income 8gpt: 0 (most of the team got this)
dl123654:
Sea exploration: +1 (2 Curraghs)
Land exploration: 0 (could be better)
Settler present: -1 (could mean the difference in the long run)
Luxury connected: +1 (spares us some income)
Treasury 149g: +1 (among the highest of the lot)
Net income 8gpt: +1 (highest of the team)
bede:
Sea exploration: +1 (2 Curraghs)
Land exploration: -1 (only exploration done by Settler)
Settler present: +1 (the Settler needs more moves to get to a city location)
Luxury connected: -1 (costs us some income)
Treasury 140g: 0 (not the highest of the lot)
Net income 8gpt: 0 (most of the team got this)
peacemonger:
Sea exploration: +1 (2 Curraghs)
Land exploration: 0 (could be better)
Settler present: +1 (the Settler needs more moves to get to a city location)
Luxury connected: +1 (spares us some income)
Treasury 140g: 0 (not the highest of the lot)
Net income 8gpt: 0 (most of the team got this)
Jurimax
Duke of Flanders
And finally here are the results from the Belgian jury 
:
+4: trikos, Jurimax
+3: dl123654, peacemonger
+1: peacemonger
0: Bede
@team: I'm not saying this or that way is the best to go, because I'm here for the same reason as all the trainees; to learn and play Emperor. These points were given to my own thoughts of what I find important.
Greetz Jurimax
:+4: trikos, Jurimax
+3: dl123654, peacemonger
+1: peacemonger
0: Bede
@team: I'm not saying this or that way is the best to go, because I'm here for the same reason as all the trainees; to learn and play Emperor. These points were given to my own thoughts of what I find important.
Greetz Jurimax
trikos
Chieftain
@Bede and Jurimax: Thanks for the analysis. (@Bede: There are 2 curraghs in my save)
I would like to add a comparison of the way we handled the worker:
Jurimax: 2 cows irrigated and lux hooked up
oopsy poopsy: 1 cow irrigated, 1 cow mined, 1 bg mined, no lux
Peacemonger: cows irrigated, lux hooked, worker close to next city (which mean we can get lux and terrain improvements to the second city quickly)
Bede: Only one cow irrigated and roaded, no lux, BG and sugar is mined and roaded, no lux
dl123654: second cow is irrigated in one turn, lux hooked up.
trikos: 1 cow is about to be mined (must be stopped or irrigated later), cow irrigated and lux hooked up
We need two irrigated cows sooner or later. The worker in my save has to be changed to irrigation unless we want to let it finish and irrigate the (then) mined cow later. I think Peacemonger handled the worker best (assessed with out current plans in mind).
I think it was a mistake of me to move the worker to the lux and hooke it up and then back again to the second cow. I started mining the cow before I realized we could have three +5 food cities.
The other save I would consider playing is Jirimax's, but I suggest my own save because the settler is next to where we want to settle the next city (sorry for pointing at myself). This means two turns of production in the second city. In the long run, we will win more from this than we will loose from the worker mistakes (I think).
I would like to add a comparison of the way we handled the worker:
Jurimax: 2 cows irrigated and lux hooked up
oopsy poopsy: 1 cow irrigated, 1 cow mined, 1 bg mined, no lux
Peacemonger: cows irrigated, lux hooked, worker close to next city (which mean we can get lux and terrain improvements to the second city quickly)
Bede: Only one cow irrigated and roaded, no lux, BG and sugar is mined and roaded, no lux
dl123654: second cow is irrigated in one turn, lux hooked up.
trikos: 1 cow is about to be mined (must be stopped or irrigated later), cow irrigated and lux hooked up
We need two irrigated cows sooner or later. The worker in my save has to be changed to irrigation unless we want to let it finish and irrigate the (then) mined cow later. I think Peacemonger handled the worker best (assessed with out current plans in mind).
I think it was a mistake of me to move the worker to the lux and hooke it up and then back again to the second cow. I started mining the cow before I realized we could have three +5 food cities.
The other save I would consider playing is Jirimax's, but I suggest my own save because the settler is next to where we want to settle the next city (sorry for pointing at myself). This means two turns of production in the second city. In the long run, we will win more from this than we will loose from the worker mistakes (I think).
peacemonger
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2004
- Messages
- 71
@trikos, thanks -- this is what I had wanted to point out too...we had focused on treasury and gpt but not yet looked at the scenery and compared our potential fpt/spt options. end of the day i *think* i come to the same conclusion as you, the leg up from getting the second city underway faster outweighs a couple turns getting the irrigated cow. a better number cruncher could try to spin out whether delays on worker moves now slows down settling our 3rd city and what the effect is on other production priorities, but right now my gut is trikos start
oopsy poopsy
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2004
- Messages
- 202
I vote for trikos's as well. My second was dl123654. I think two curraghs is a must. I like dl's worker turns but I'm partial to already having the settler. I think that irrigating the cow would have been better, but before we go wasting early worker turns we should see what we'll gain by changing that tile. It might still turn out that the mined cow works fine.
trikos
Chieftain
I have looked a bit into corruption in order to learn how it works in C3C. I found a great explanation by alexman here. I put the formulas into a spread sheet and compared our dotmaps. It is not really a surprise that the city placement doesn't make a big difference all being so close to the capital (I checked the placement of the first 4-5 cities). All corruption is somewhere between 10 and 20 percents (note: I haven't checked the results in my spreadsheet against a game, so there might be errors!). It is only the distribution that differs a bit. I learned quite a bit about corruption in C3C by doing this 
Roster: Let me know if someone wants to continue or doesn't want to continue the game. The roster is completely random right now besides having trainee, trainee, trainee, trainer, trainee, trainee, and trainer pattern.
Roster: Let me know if someone wants to continue or doesn't want to continue the game. The roster is completely random right now besides having trainee, trainee, trainee, trainer, trainee, trainee, and trainer pattern.
@trikos,
How about setting the roster this way:
trikos - played (as I think all are agreed that your start gets the nod)
Jurimax - up
oopsy poopsy - on deck
dl123654
peacemonger
plarq
Bede
If everybody is comfortable with this I think we are ready to roll.
Comments? Questions? Did I forget anything.....
@team, based on the careful analysis I've seen so far I'm going to learn more from you than vice versa.
How about setting the roster this way:
trikos - played (as I think all are agreed that your start gets the nod)
Jurimax - up
oopsy poopsy - on deck
dl123654
peacemonger
plarq
Bede
If everybody is comfortable with this I think we are ready to roll.
Comments? Questions? Did I forget anything.....
@team, based on the careful analysis I've seen so far I'm going to learn more from you than vice versa.
Jurimax
Duke of Flanders
Okay, got it and will play tomorrow (or maybe squeeze in a couple of turns tonight).
Greetz Jurimax
So it's trikos' save we go with? (no problem for me as I pointed out trikos' biggest advantage is his Settler being ready to build our second city in a matter of turns)
Greetz Jurimax
So it's trikos' save we go with? (no problem for me as I pointed out trikos' biggest advantage is his Settler being ready to build our second city in a matter of turns)
trikos
Chieftain
@Jurimax: Have fun playing. Please post if any trading comes up. You decide whether you want to stop and wait for comments or not. Are you going to use your own dotmap? That would be fine for me. Good luck
Jurimax
Duke of Flanders
Okay guys I have a trade possibility with Japan:
they have:
10 gold
Pottery
Bronze Working
Ceremonial Burial
The Wheel
we have:
Masonry
Alphabet
172 gold
They're willing to trade:
Pottery, Bronze Working and Ceremonial Burial
for
Alphabet, Masonry and 97 gold
I'd make this trade for:
Pottery: Settler pumps need this
Bronze Working: our UU needs this
Ceremonial Burial: some early culture
We can't buy a tech straight up, so we'll have to use one of our own techs for leverage.
Greetz Jurimax
PS added the save (will PM Rik and post my own trade tomorrow + the reasons)
they have:
10 gold
Pottery
Bronze Working
Ceremonial Burial
The Wheel
we have:
Masonry
Alphabet
172 gold
They're willing to trade:
Pottery, Bronze Working and Ceremonial Burial
for
Alphabet, Masonry and 97 gold
I'd make this trade for:
Pottery: Settler pumps need this
Bronze Working: our UU needs this
Ceremonial Burial: some early culture
We can't buy a tech straight up, so we'll have to use one of our own techs for leverage.
Greetz Jurimax
PS added the save (will PM Rik and post my own trade tomorrow + the reasons)
In general, I would be inclined to defer trading until we meet a third party.
In this instance Toku has one tech we really , really need (Pottery), so making the best deal we can for that one only is an option.
The others he holds are either unnecessary at this stage, or are likely to get cheaper as we meet the other nations, therefore we will realize more of the value of what we know.
In this instance Toku has one tech we really , really need (Pottery), so making the best deal we can for that one only is an option.
The others he holds are either unnecessary at this stage, or are likely to get cheaper as we meet the other nations, therefore we will realize more of the value of what we know.
I'll comment the trade when I open the save later on.
oopsy poopsy
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2004
- Messages
- 202
well now the fun begins. Assuming that Japan's only met one civ, it has to be Russia or Sumeria. These are the two with pottery and bronze working. Both are scientific (BW being it's starting tech). In the short term I'd be inclined to keep them away from alphabet, just to see if we can make some contacts before they get their hands on writing. If they've all met each other by the time we get there it could make our lives kinda hard. I agree with bede about only needing pottery right now, but what happens if Japan meets civs out there with our traits? We lose the chance to trade those techs at all. It would be nice to at least trade both to japan AND russia/sumeria, but if we do it now I'm sure japan will trade them away before we get the chance.
Actually it is more likely he gained the tech from friendly barbarian villages, given the number we have seen on the map so far and the fact he has only ten gold.
If I understand your comment about contacts-alphabet-writing remember this is Conquests so contact trading doesn't happen until Navigation at the end of the MA tech tree.
Finally, unless we pop a goody hut with luck and timing, or build the ToE we will never hold a monopoly tech if there is another nation on the map sharing our start techs. So it will work to our advantage when the other nations start trading stuff around, as the cost goes down for what we have to buy.
We do want the "middle-man" position for as long as we can hold it, of course, which on an archipelago map can be a long time.
One other thing to keep in mind when planning strategy: when another civilization is eliminated from the game, the beaker cost of tech goes down, and the price to buy .
If I understand your comment about contacts-alphabet-writing remember this is Conquests so contact trading doesn't happen until Navigation at the end of the MA tech tree.
Finally, unless we pop a goody hut with luck and timing, or build the ToE we will never hold a monopoly tech if there is another nation on the map sharing our start techs. So it will work to our advantage when the other nations start trading stuff around, as the cost goes down for what we have to buy.
We do want the "middle-man" position for as long as we can hold it, of course, which on an archipelago map can be a long time.
One other thing to keep in mind when planning strategy: when another civilization is eliminated from the game, the beaker cost of tech goes down, and the price to buy .
peacemonger
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2004
- Messages
- 71
eta: sorry bede, cross-posted. but can you clarify -- can't we still have a monopoly tech if we have it, japan does not, and even if there is another civ with our traits on the map, Japan has not yet met them?
I don't think it's necessarily the case Japan has traded for both BW and Pottery. He's at 100% research (only 10g). How quick can a cheap tech like Pottery be researched by the AI at full throttle? And there is another possibility that a tech was popped from a hut. I suspect Japan knows someone, but I think the field is probably more open than just Russia or Sumeria. We need to really heavily prioritze our exploration for contacts. I'd wait on any trade other than for pottery until we have broker opportunities. It's all monopoly pricing right now. (I'd even consider waiting and trying to get pottery at 2nd, if it looks like we are close to another contact, but would probably go for it in the end since we do need the growth.)
I don't think it's necessarily the case Japan has traded for both BW and Pottery. He's at 100% research (only 10g). How quick can a cheap tech like Pottery be researched by the AI at full throttle? And there is another possibility that a tech was popped from a hut. I suspect Japan knows someone, but I think the field is probably more open than just Russia or Sumeria. We need to really heavily prioritze our exploration for contacts. I'd wait on any trade other than for pottery until we have broker opportunities. It's all monopoly pricing right now. (I'd even consider waiting and trying to get pottery at 2nd, if it looks like we are close to another contact, but would probably go for it in the end since we do need the growth.)
trikos
Chieftain
I agree. We need the contacts badly. We should probably wait as long as possible to buy any tech. We could even prebuild a granary in carthage if necessary
