Bede said:
Didn't norice. 
Training game emphasizing trading - Emperor
- Thread starter trikos
- Start date
Didn't norice.
I've analysed DL123654's (from now on DL) trades. As usual I am focussing on What we want/need, the trade itself, the timing and the trading partner.
DL did:
1: What do we want ?
On the market is HBR, Writing and Mathematics.
HBR is ok, but not more than that. As we've determined earlier HBR is not high up on our priority list. It should function as "pocketchange" for now.
Writing is also just ok, as the only benefit we get from it is the ability to build embassies and we can see if some other civ has researched a tech beyond it.
In normal games writing is important as it is the stepping stone to Philosophy and the Great Library and The Great Lighthouse. But we won't be researching Philosophy, we have agreed to not build the great Library and we don't really need the Lighthouse, as we have a civ on our island to deal with and we have met virtually everyone.
Mathematics allows us to build catapults and, since we have Ivory, The Statue of Zeus. The only other civ we know that has Ivory (connected) is Japan.
I see Mathematics as the most important goal, Writing second and HBR 3rd.
2: DL's trade.
DL got us Writing + HBR , we paid 37 gold.
Netherlands got 244gold, they paid Writing.
Japan got writing, they paid 14 gold + HBR.
Russia got writing, they paid 193 gold.
We didn't get Mathematics, but nor did Japan. We paid in total 37 gold for 2 techs. In itself this is good. DL also pulled a 2fer1; he bought Writing and used writing to get HBR.
3: The Timing.
DL traded on turn 66; 1350 BC. By that moment in time Spain had held Mathematics as a monopoly for 3 turns already.
If they were on fastest research they would get a new tech next turn. The last 3 turns didn't see a change in tech-possession; and there still were 2fer1's and even 3fer1's possible.
Japan didn't increase its gold supply, Russia only marginally and the other civs hardly. I think DL's timing was good.
4: The trading partner.
DL bought writing off The Netherlands. The scores were then:
1: Russia 307. 2: Japan 245. 3: Carthage 239. 4: Netherlands 227. 5: Spain 206. 6: Germany 201.
Spain asks for Writing 244 gold. Netherlands asks for writing also 244 gold. As Spain is lower on the list and there is no (significant) price difference I would have traded with Spain.
DL traded HBR + 14 gold for Writing with Japan.
It is best to first check the civ with the tech you want, who holds the lowest amount of gold. If you get the tech (HBR) from them, you can get the gold of the richer civs. The best trade is to the civ who gives you all the techs + all their gold. In our world that would probably mean Germany, as they have HBR and only 4 gold. However Germany doesn't want to give up HBR for Writing. DL spotted that. Japan would pay HBR + 14 gold (of their 75) for writing. Russia 193 gold (of their 193) + HBR for writing. Since DL sold writing to Russia after the Japanese trade, I see no reason why he sold writing first to Japan. If he'd sold it to Russia (for HBR + 193 gold) and after that to Japan (75 gold) he would have made 61 gold more; bringing the end result to:
HBR + Writing + 24 gold.
Riks alternative
Want/need:
I would have wanted Mathematics to use it to obtain writing + HBR (3fer1). Spain holds a monopoly on it and wants 529 gold for it. The rest of the nations have in total 193+75+66+4 = 338 gold, so we'll always have to loose money; at least 529 - 338 = 191 gold.
Timing: To fully benefit from this trade we need a city capable of building the Statue of Zeus. We are still in expansion mode and need our cities to build settlers, workers and units. As long as Japan (the only other Ivory owner) doesn't have Ivory, the trade can wait.
I would not have traded at all
I would have waited till either:
- Japan got Mathematics.
- Some other civs got Mathematics, dropping the price.
- The discovery of new techs (Polytheism) so we could do a 4fer1 or even a 5fer1.
- The civs got more money so we get a better return on investment.
As you can see; DL could have gotten us (if he had chosen Spain to buy writing from and first sell to Russia and after that to Japan) HBR + Writing + 24 gold, with Mathematics still on the market and Japan without Mathematics.
This would have been the optimal result, even better than my alternative.
Riks Conclusion
I would have waited, but that turned out to be wrong. Getting 2 techs + gold for free is better than waiting. DL didn't do it perfectly, but he beat me this time.
Well done DL
Keep it up !
DL did:
1: What do we want ?
On the market is HBR, Writing and Mathematics.
HBR is ok, but not more than that. As we've determined earlier HBR is not high up on our priority list. It should function as "pocketchange" for now.
Writing is also just ok, as the only benefit we get from it is the ability to build embassies and we can see if some other civ has researched a tech beyond it.
In normal games writing is important as it is the stepping stone to Philosophy and the Great Library and The Great Lighthouse. But we won't be researching Philosophy, we have agreed to not build the great Library and we don't really need the Lighthouse, as we have a civ on our island to deal with and we have met virtually everyone.
Mathematics allows us to build catapults and, since we have Ivory, The Statue of Zeus. The only other civ we know that has Ivory (connected) is Japan.
I see Mathematics as the most important goal, Writing second and HBR 3rd.
2: DL's trade.
DL got us Writing + HBR , we paid 37 gold.
Netherlands got 244gold, they paid Writing.
Japan got writing, they paid 14 gold + HBR.
Russia got writing, they paid 193 gold.
We didn't get Mathematics, but nor did Japan. We paid in total 37 gold for 2 techs. In itself this is good. DL also pulled a 2fer1; he bought Writing and used writing to get HBR.
3: The Timing.
DL traded on turn 66; 1350 BC. By that moment in time Spain had held Mathematics as a monopoly for 3 turns already.
If they were on fastest research they would get a new tech next turn. The last 3 turns didn't see a change in tech-possession; and there still were 2fer1's and even 3fer1's possible.
Japan didn't increase its gold supply, Russia only marginally and the other civs hardly. I think DL's timing was good.
4: The trading partner.
DL bought writing off The Netherlands. The scores were then:
1: Russia 307. 2: Japan 245. 3: Carthage 239. 4: Netherlands 227. 5: Spain 206. 6: Germany 201.
Spain asks for Writing 244 gold. Netherlands asks for writing also 244 gold. As Spain is lower on the list and there is no (significant) price difference I would have traded with Spain.
DL traded HBR + 14 gold for Writing with Japan.
It is best to first check the civ with the tech you want, who holds the lowest amount of gold. If you get the tech (HBR) from them, you can get the gold of the richer civs. The best trade is to the civ who gives you all the techs + all their gold. In our world that would probably mean Germany, as they have HBR and only 4 gold. However Germany doesn't want to give up HBR for Writing. DL spotted that. Japan would pay HBR + 14 gold (of their 75) for writing. Russia 193 gold (of their 193) + HBR for writing. Since DL sold writing to Russia after the Japanese trade, I see no reason why he sold writing first to Japan. If he'd sold it to Russia (for HBR + 193 gold) and after that to Japan (75 gold) he would have made 61 gold more; bringing the end result to:
HBR + Writing + 24 gold.
Riks alternative
Want/need:
I would have wanted Mathematics to use it to obtain writing + HBR (3fer1). Spain holds a monopoly on it and wants 529 gold for it. The rest of the nations have in total 193+75+66+4 = 338 gold, so we'll always have to loose money; at least 529 - 338 = 191 gold.
Timing: To fully benefit from this trade we need a city capable of building the Statue of Zeus. We are still in expansion mode and need our cities to build settlers, workers and units. As long as Japan (the only other Ivory owner) doesn't have Ivory, the trade can wait.
I would not have traded at all
I would have waited till either:
- Japan got Mathematics.
- Some other civs got Mathematics, dropping the price.
- The discovery of new techs (Polytheism) so we could do a 4fer1 or even a 5fer1.
- The civs got more money so we get a better return on investment.
As you can see; DL could have gotten us (if he had chosen Spain to buy writing from and first sell to Russia and after that to Japan) HBR + Writing + 24 gold, with Mathematics still on the market and Japan without Mathematics.
This would have been the optimal result, even better than my alternative.
Riks Conclusion
I would have waited, but that turned out to be wrong. Getting 2 techs + gold for free is better than waiting. DL didn't do it perfectly, but he beat me this time.
Well done DL
Keep it up !
Roster check:
(I hope this is right but in going through the thread I think I may have missed some swaps
)
peacemonger - up
plarq - on deck
Bede
trikos
Jurimax
oopsy poopsy
dl123654
Good calls all around.
Nice analysis, Rik. Thanks again for your help.
Will look at stats and post some thoughts. Good progress on all fronts.
(I hope this is right but in going through the thread I think I may have missed some swaps
)peacemonger - up
plarq - on deck
Bede
trikos
Jurimax
oopsy poopsy
dl123654
Good calls all around.
Nice analysis, Rik. Thanks again for your help.
Will look at stats and post some thoughts. Good progress on all fronts.
peacemonger
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2004
- Messages
- 71
Yes, got it. Will play tomorrow or monday latest.
oopsy poopsy
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2004
- Messages
- 202
actually bede, I'm pretty sure it's this:
peacemonger
trikos
jurimax
oopsy poopsy
bede
plarq
dl123654
It was supposed to be peacemonger and trikos before dl but they couldn't play 'til the weekend so dl went and know it's back in line. If i'm wrong I'm sorry, but I think that's where we're at. correct me if I'm wrong, but so far we used trikos' start, then juri, then me, then bede, then plarq, then dl, right?
peacemonger
trikos
jurimax
oopsy poopsy
bede
plarq
dl123654
It was supposed to be peacemonger and trikos before dl but they couldn't play 'til the weekend so dl went and know it's back in line. If i'm wrong I'm sorry, but I think that's where we're at. correct me if I'm wrong, but so far we used trikos' start, then juri, then me, then bede, then plarq, then dl, right?
trikos
Chieftain
@Rik Meleet: Thanks for the analysis. I will summarize what I have learned about trading this way:
1: If you can choose to trade between two opponents, choose the one with lowest score.
2: Buy what you need - don't just buy it to get.
@Bede: Thanks for putting up the roster.
@o-p: thanks for correcting it.
@Peacemonger: Good luck with playing.
@team: Anything we need to discuss before Peacemonger plays?
1: If you can choose to trade between two opponents, choose the one with lowest score.
2: Buy what you need - don't just buy it to get.
@Bede: Thanks for putting up the roster.
@o-p: thanks for correcting it.
@Peacemonger: Good luck with playing.
@team: Anything we need to discuss before Peacemonger plays?
We have gained nine techs in seventy turns, about one every eight or so, with one known by three and still to be acquired. We have met five other nations and have still to meet another two. Of the five we have met two are Scientific and two are Seafaring, two are Militaristic, none are Commercial. What is the next most likely new knowledge to appear?
We have a great pot o' gold (1119) growing at a little less than 5%.
What can we surmise about contacts between the other nations? Why is that important?
Are there any advantages to be gained from opening embassies. If so with whom?
Tactical note: My choices for trading partners are driven by a slightly different criteria than score. I always go for the gold. I always ask myself what transactions in what order will be likely to net the greatest amount of gold.
We have a great pot o' gold (1119) growing at a little less than 5%.
What can we surmise about contacts between the other nations? Why is that important?
Are there any advantages to be gained from opening embassies. If so with whom?
Tactical note: My choices for trading partners are driven by a slightly different criteria than score. I always go for the gold. I always ask myself what transactions in what order will be likely to net the greatest amount of gold.
Trikos: It is a bit more balanced than just score. Like Bede points out; gold is also important as well as trying to prevent some nations to get a certain tech (cheaply). But if those factors are equal or not significantly different; score is a good way to indicate what civs are strong and which civs are weak. It's better to help the weaker civs than the stronger civs. Especially in the early game as the beginning defines the end. A civ that is strong in the beginning will usually be strong in the end as well.
Your point 2 even holds true in real life
Your point 2 even holds true in real life
trikos
Chieftain
@Rik Meleet: I wasn't precise enough. I should have stated that when you can do a "similar" trade with two or more opponents (i.e. they will pay or sell for the same), a rule of thumb is to trade with the opponent with the lowest score. I agree that it is more important to get gold, prevent the opponents from getting a tech, and preventing them from getting cheap techs.
@Bede: Interesting questions. I have to think a bit about them
@Bede: Interesting questions. I have to think a bit about them
trikos
Chieftain
@peacemonger: Have you played the turns? Will you do it?
Bede's questions:
> What is the next most likely new knowledge to appear?
I am not sure. It would probably be philosophy (an in between tech), code of laws (city improvement) or polytheism (wonder). Polytheism gets the AI closer to a new government and access to build a wonder. So it is probably polytheism. But I don't know how the AI tech selection works.
> What can we surmise about contacts between the other nations? Why is that important?
Germans, Dutchs, and Spanish have probably met. They are on the same island. Japan could put a boat in the water and have met Russia. Russia could have done the same and have met the other four civs. This is important for our trading. I guess we want to sell a tech to all the civs who knows each other (if they have money?)
> Are there any advantages to be gained from opening embassies. If so with whom?
We will know who the other civs have met. Russia would be a good place to open an embassy. I would probably not open an embassy in Japan until just before we attack them.
Bede's questions:
> What is the next most likely new knowledge to appear?
I am not sure. It would probably be philosophy (an in between tech), code of laws (city improvement) or polytheism (wonder). Polytheism gets the AI closer to a new government and access to build a wonder. So it is probably polytheism. But I don't know how the AI tech selection works.
> What can we surmise about contacts between the other nations? Why is that important?
Germans, Dutchs, and Spanish have probably met. They are on the same island. Japan could put a boat in the water and have met Russia. Russia could have done the same and have met the other four civs. This is important for our trading. I guess we want to sell a tech to all the civs who knows each other (if they have money?)
> Are there any advantages to be gained from opening embassies. If so with whom?
We will know who the other civs have met. Russia would be a good place to open an embassy. I would probably not open an embassy in Japan until just before we attack them.
peacemonger
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2004
- Messages
- 71
yes, I plan to play today. Re-reading the last few pages first. Should post w/in next 12 hours. I want to look at the diplo log from the last player again to see if that gives hints as to who has met (based on who has purchased techs from each other). The same tech will be cheaper to those civs who know others w that tech than to a more isolated civ, and in general I think the brokering window will start to close on the civs who know most counterparties. Don't know if this means we should trade sooner when spotting a broker opportunity, or to wait longer for prices to drop and assume the AI will be trading amongst itself.
eta: ok, looks like Netherlands Spain and Germany must all know each other.
eta: ok, looks like Netherlands Spain and Germany must all know each other.
peacemonger
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2004
- Messages
- 71
T0 1225
Spain, Germany, Netherlands are up Math. Its possible Spain has researched Construction by now and we cant see it. Want Math very much, but would like to be able to trade it for a tech. Japan or Russia needs to research something tradeable soon, curious to find out what Greece has.
Leptis Minor needs to be moved pronto, Rusica will pull out its pop in a settler in 7 turns, so Ill let that happen and move Rusica then.
Military we are average or strong against all opponents (average against Japan, our only land opponent).
Utica  worker
Hit enter
IBT
Russia asks our curragh to push off
Japanese pair of warriors show up near the barb to our north
T1 1200
Curraghs do their thing, we swim up to the town of Sparta and meet Greece. They have Math and 33g. That is a crowded island I think maybe Greece/Germany/Spain/Netherlands all know each other. Greece has a ton of dyes hooked up.
Greece math 33g 6 cities
Russia math 13g 6 cities
Netherlands math 80g 6 cities, iron hooked up
Germany math 171g 4 cities
Spain math 45g 4cities
Japan no tech 61g 8 cities, a worker for sale
Russia has learned math. Our opportunity to sell to Japan is probably not long for this world. Germany and Russia want 205, ROW will take 197. Not sure on timing, but I want to see if anyone has Construction or Currency, so buy from Spain at 197. Noone has researched any 3rd level techs. Japan has Ivory close enough to hook up, so I am not going to sell them Math quite yet.
Settler/Archer move toward the dotmap spot N of Leptis Minor. Settler/Warrior leave LMinor for relocation. 2 workers road to our iron. Another worker roading the BG by Hippo. Chokepoint archer takes out barb. Warrior roaming Japan to see how their ivory is looking. Found Hadrumetum in accord with dotmap. MM Utica by hiring taxman.
IBT
Greece asks us to leave. Japanese ask us to leave, their warriors near our land scurry NW. Japan gets to work on the Oracle.
T2 1175
Carthage Settler  Settler
Utica Worker  Worker
Abandon LMinor and resettle.
New settler from Carthage takes Vet warrior with her toward Eastern chokepoint. Workers who mined the wheat near Hippo now roading network E to Hadrumetum. New Utica worker to road to new LMinor. N settler and archer move N. Elite archer back to chokepoint in NW.
Theveste will finish its barracks in 1 turn, could begin SoZ and be changed if team decides.
Japan no tech 86g 8 cities
Russia no tech 14g 6 cities
Netherlands no tech 80g 6 cities, iron hooked up
Greece no tech 198g 6 cities
Germany no tech 170g 4 cities
Spain no tech 242g 4cities
Greece must know the last AI and probably sold them math. Japan has gotten some barb gold. Theyll empty their treasury for math. Hem, haw. Take it. I imagine it would be the next thing theyd research, they still havent hooked up their ivory and are busy with the Oracle, so I see no downside. No upside to waiting, either.
IBT
Japan wants us OUT! We move.
T3 1150
LMagna SettlerGranary
Theveste BarracksSoZ
Oea Warrior  Archer
Cirta founded. Elite Archer moves to incense hill, sees the 2 vet Japanese warriors are still nearby. New Settler heads east with an escort.
Japan no tech 0g 8 cities
Russia no tech 15g 6 cities
Netherlands no tech 80g 6 cities, iron hooked up
Greece no tech 170g 7 cities (expanded)
Germany no tech 170g 4 cities
Spain no tech 242g 5cities (expanded)
IBT
T4 1125
Utica Worker  Worker
Settlers on their way East, Workers building network and developing land, Curraghs exploring. LMagna hires taxman.
Japan no tech 25g 8 cities
Russia no tech 16g 6 cities
Netherlands mapmaking 322g 6 cities, iron hooked up
Greece no tech 172g 7 cities
Germany no tech 170g 4 cities
Spain mapmaking 0g 5cities
Netherlands researched MM and sold it to Spain. No one sold to Germany or Greece? Wonder if Spain/Neth know Russia? Embassy with Russia. Shes on 80% research. 27 turns from the Oracle. A settler ready to move from the capital, one warrior 2 spears. 3 citizens, 7spt. She has not yet met anyone. Netherlands or Spain will sell for 351g (research cost is 308). We could buy from Spain and clean out Greece/Germany maybe before the AI does the trades on their own. Hmm. Embassy with Spain. 8 turns from the Oracle. 7spt, 6 citizens (one is a clown) 90% research, 2 spears. She knows everyone but Russia and Japan, and with Galleys that wont last long. She might be in a nice barter spot with Greece. This may be an error, but she needs coin and I dont see her waiting long to sell her tech. There could be a Lighthouse race on that island soon. I am going to buy and sell. We buy from Spain for 351, and clear out Greece and Germany treasury. No reason to sell to Russia or Japan.
IBT
Japan asks us to move our warrior.
T5 1100
New tech damn, should have waited on the trade; I got nervous.
Japan no tech 25g 8 cities
Russia no tech 18g 6 cities
Netherlands no tech 322g 6 cities
Greece Poly 3g 7 cities
Germany no tech 0g 4 cities
Spain no tech 351g 5 cities
IBT
Nada
T6 1075
Utica Worker  Worker
Japan no tech 25g 8 cities
Russia no tech 20g 6 cities
Netherlands no tech 322g 6 cities
Greece Poly 5g 7 cities
Germany no tech 2g 4 cities
Spain no tech 351g 5 cities
Monopoly price for Poly is 739.
IBT
Japan finishes Pyramids, begins SoZ. Russia finishes Oracle, Spain and Netherlands begin Lighthouse.
T7 1050
Japan no tech 25g 8 cities
Russia no tech 21g 6 cities
Netherlands no tech 322g 6 cities
Greece Poly 8g 7 cities
Germany no tech 4g 4 cities
Spain no tech 376g 5 cities
IBT
Greece is building TofA
T8 1025
Utica Worker  Worker
We meet Korea. They are down MM and Math.
Japan no tech 25g 8 cities
Russia no tech 22g 6 cities
Netherlands no tech 322g 7 cities (expansion)
Greece Poly 12g 7 cities
Germany no tech 5g 4 cities
Spain no tech 376g 5 cities
Korea no tech 25g 5 cities
IBT
Korea asks us to leave.
T9 1000
Carthage Settler  Settler
Curragh sinks a barb ship, vet archer takes a barb NW (when do we want to hit those huts? Need a couple more archers or NuMercs to go hunting) Nora is founded.
Japan no tech 76g 8 cities
Russia no tech 22g 6 cities
Netherlands no tech 347g 7 cities
Greece Poly 15g 7 cities
Germany no tech 7g 4 cities
Spain no tech 375g 5 cities
Korea no tech 25g 5 cities
IBT
T10 975BC
A Settler is in position to settle on the eastern chokepoint. Another settler is heading toward the mapped spot SW of Circa, needs an escort. We might want to think about location for a FP (maybe it will ultimately be in Japan somewhere after war?). Theveste is plugging away at SoZ, but we could switch that to Lighthouse. (Not sure if I should have started a wonder at all, but wanted to preserve the opportunity in a decent-shield coastal city) I dont think Ive done a good job keeping military at pace with our expansion, so we need to think about that too.
Japan no tech 25g 8 cities
Russia no tech 22g 6 cities
Netherlands no tech 322g 7 cities
Greece Poly 12g 8 cities (expansion)
Germany no tech 5g 4 cities
Spain no tech 376g 5 cities
Korea no tech 25g 5 cities
Really really sorry I jumped the gun on Maps.
Spain, Germany, Netherlands are up Math. Its possible Spain has researched Construction by now and we cant see it. Want Math very much, but would like to be able to trade it for a tech. Japan or Russia needs to research something tradeable soon, curious to find out what Greece has.
Leptis Minor needs to be moved pronto, Rusica will pull out its pop in a settler in 7 turns, so Ill let that happen and move Rusica then.
Military we are average or strong against all opponents (average against Japan, our only land opponent).
Utica  worker
Hit enter
IBT
Russia asks our curragh to push off
Japanese pair of warriors show up near the barb to our north
T1 1200
Curraghs do their thing, we swim up to the town of Sparta and meet Greece. They have Math and 33g. That is a crowded island I think maybe Greece/Germany/Spain/Netherlands all know each other. Greece has a ton of dyes hooked up.
Greece math 33g 6 cities
Russia math 13g 6 cities
Netherlands math 80g 6 cities, iron hooked up
Germany math 171g 4 cities
Spain math 45g 4cities
Japan no tech 61g 8 cities, a worker for sale
Russia has learned math. Our opportunity to sell to Japan is probably not long for this world. Germany and Russia want 205, ROW will take 197. Not sure on timing, but I want to see if anyone has Construction or Currency, so buy from Spain at 197. Noone has researched any 3rd level techs. Japan has Ivory close enough to hook up, so I am not going to sell them Math quite yet.
Settler/Archer move toward the dotmap spot N of Leptis Minor. Settler/Warrior leave LMinor for relocation. 2 workers road to our iron. Another worker roading the BG by Hippo. Chokepoint archer takes out barb. Warrior roaming Japan to see how their ivory is looking. Found Hadrumetum in accord with dotmap. MM Utica by hiring taxman.
IBT
Greece asks us to leave. Japanese ask us to leave, their warriors near our land scurry NW. Japan gets to work on the Oracle.
T2 1175
Carthage Settler  Settler
Utica Worker  Worker
Abandon LMinor and resettle.
New settler from Carthage takes Vet warrior with her toward Eastern chokepoint. Workers who mined the wheat near Hippo now roading network E to Hadrumetum. New Utica worker to road to new LMinor. N settler and archer move N. Elite archer back to chokepoint in NW.
Theveste will finish its barracks in 1 turn, could begin SoZ and be changed if team decides.
Japan no tech 86g 8 cities
Russia no tech 14g 6 cities
Netherlands no tech 80g 6 cities, iron hooked up
Greece no tech 198g 6 cities
Germany no tech 170g 4 cities
Spain no tech 242g 4cities
Greece must know the last AI and probably sold them math. Japan has gotten some barb gold. Theyll empty their treasury for math. Hem, haw. Take it. I imagine it would be the next thing theyd research, they still havent hooked up their ivory and are busy with the Oracle, so I see no downside. No upside to waiting, either.
IBT
Japan wants us OUT! We move.
T3 1150
LMagna SettlerGranary
Theveste BarracksSoZ
Oea Warrior  Archer
Cirta founded. Elite Archer moves to incense hill, sees the 2 vet Japanese warriors are still nearby. New Settler heads east with an escort.
Japan no tech 0g 8 cities
Russia no tech 15g 6 cities
Netherlands no tech 80g 6 cities, iron hooked up
Greece no tech 170g 7 cities (expanded)
Germany no tech 170g 4 cities
Spain no tech 242g 5cities (expanded)
IBT
T4 1125
Utica Worker  Worker
Settlers on their way East, Workers building network and developing land, Curraghs exploring. LMagna hires taxman.
Japan no tech 25g 8 cities
Russia no tech 16g 6 cities
Netherlands mapmaking 322g 6 cities, iron hooked up
Greece no tech 172g 7 cities
Germany no tech 170g 4 cities
Spain mapmaking 0g 5cities
Netherlands researched MM and sold it to Spain. No one sold to Germany or Greece? Wonder if Spain/Neth know Russia? Embassy with Russia. Shes on 80% research. 27 turns from the Oracle. A settler ready to move from the capital, one warrior 2 spears. 3 citizens, 7spt. She has not yet met anyone. Netherlands or Spain will sell for 351g (research cost is 308). We could buy from Spain and clean out Greece/Germany maybe before the AI does the trades on their own. Hmm. Embassy with Spain. 8 turns from the Oracle. 7spt, 6 citizens (one is a clown) 90% research, 2 spears. She knows everyone but Russia and Japan, and with Galleys that wont last long. She might be in a nice barter spot with Greece. This may be an error, but she needs coin and I dont see her waiting long to sell her tech. There could be a Lighthouse race on that island soon. I am going to buy and sell. We buy from Spain for 351, and clear out Greece and Germany treasury. No reason to sell to Russia or Japan.
IBT
Japan asks us to move our warrior.
T5 1100
New tech damn, should have waited on the trade; I got nervous.
Japan no tech 25g 8 cities
Russia no tech 18g 6 cities
Netherlands no tech 322g 6 cities
Greece Poly 3g 7 cities
Germany no tech 0g 4 cities
Spain no tech 351g 5 cities
IBT
Nada
T6 1075
Utica Worker  Worker
Japan no tech 25g 8 cities
Russia no tech 20g 6 cities
Netherlands no tech 322g 6 cities
Greece Poly 5g 7 cities
Germany no tech 2g 4 cities
Spain no tech 351g 5 cities
Monopoly price for Poly is 739.
IBT
Japan finishes Pyramids, begins SoZ. Russia finishes Oracle, Spain and Netherlands begin Lighthouse.
T7 1050
Japan no tech 25g 8 cities
Russia no tech 21g 6 cities
Netherlands no tech 322g 6 cities
Greece Poly 8g 7 cities
Germany no tech 4g 4 cities
Spain no tech 376g 5 cities
IBT
Greece is building TofA
T8 1025
Utica Worker  Worker
We meet Korea. They are down MM and Math.
Japan no tech 25g 8 cities
Russia no tech 22g 6 cities
Netherlands no tech 322g 7 cities (expansion)
Greece Poly 12g 7 cities
Germany no tech 5g 4 cities
Spain no tech 376g 5 cities
Korea no tech 25g 5 cities
IBT
Korea asks us to leave.
T9 1000
Carthage Settler  Settler
Curragh sinks a barb ship, vet archer takes a barb NW (when do we want to hit those huts? Need a couple more archers or NuMercs to go hunting) Nora is founded.
Japan no tech 76g 8 cities
Russia no tech 22g 6 cities
Netherlands no tech 347g 7 cities
Greece Poly 15g 7 cities
Germany no tech 7g 4 cities
Spain no tech 375g 5 cities
Korea no tech 25g 5 cities
IBT
T10 975BC
A Settler is in position to settle on the eastern chokepoint. Another settler is heading toward the mapped spot SW of Circa, needs an escort. We might want to think about location for a FP (maybe it will ultimately be in Japan somewhere after war?). Theveste is plugging away at SoZ, but we could switch that to Lighthouse. (Not sure if I should have started a wonder at all, but wanted to preserve the opportunity in a decent-shield coastal city) I dont think Ive done a good job keeping military at pace with our expansion, so we need to think about that too.
Japan no tech 25g 8 cities
Russia no tech 22g 6 cities
Netherlands no tech 322g 7 cities
Greece Poly 12g 8 cities (expansion)
Germany no tech 5g 4 cities
Spain no tech 376g 5 cities
Korea no tech 25g 5 cities
Really really sorry I jumped the gun on Maps.
1: What do we want ?
This is obvious; We have a trading opportunity and the tech MapMaking is the only tech present. Do we eant this tech ? On an archipelago map: yes, certainly. If not for the Great Lighthouse and extra ship movement, then for the harbors to import and export goods.
2: Peacemonger's trade.
Did Peacemonger do a perfect trade ? Well; he paid the lowest possible price -at the moment- and sold it for all Greece's and Germany's cash. He didn't trade it to Russia nor Japan. We could have made 41 gold extra. But is that wise in this case ?
Mapmaking allows galleys to be build; the first sea-unit that can transport units. Without it, Russia cannot reach us with units. More importantly; Russia and Japan know nobody. Mapmaking invites the AI to build galleys and make contact. We know they'll make contact with the others anyway; as the others all have Mapmaking now. So that fact makes selling to Russia more attractive.
OTOH Russia is still score leader (by a big gap). Making them work for their knowledge while we get it easily, will improve our relative score to them.
Japan: They are on the same landmass as we are. We don't care (for our safety) if they have galleys or not. They'll be coming over land, not seas. We both have the same luxuries in our lands, thus trading isn't an issue either. But there is also no real benefit from selling them the tech. I was thaught how to play by the great "Sulla". His motto was: "what can wait must wait; what cannot wait, must not wait". This tech-trade (to Japan and Russia) can wait, so it must wait. Who knows; they might discover a monopoly tech and then we still have Mapmaking to make that tech cheaper for us to buy.
3: The Timing.
Was it the right moment to trade? Netherlands discovered it and sold it to Spain. What would have happened if peacemonger would have waited? Very likely: trade to Germany and Greece next turn (they had fairly large amounts of gold). In my eyes we had a 1 turn "window of opportunity" for this trade and Peacemonger was spot on here
!. Excellent timing !4: The trading partner.
Spain and the Netherlands were the only ones with the tech. Both asked the same price for it. There aren't any other factors that are important; so we look at score. Netherlands 258, Spain 238. Fairly insignificant difference, but the best choice, again.
And the sale to Germany and Greece? Both would know it very soon (especially since we bought it, reducing the price for them). Both were willing to give their entire treasury and had nothing extra to offer. Trading to them both was the good thing to do.
Rik's conclusion
Peacemonger, what are you doing in my class? You don't need training; you did it perfectly! Keep it up! Everything was spot on.
FYI: I did a small test; not buying MapMaking. The next turn Greece got Poly, sold it to Spain. So Spain has MM + Poly, Greece MM + Poly, Neth MM. Germany neither.peacemonger said:T5 1100
New tech ? damn, should have waited on the trade; I got nervous.
Japan no tech 25g 8 cities
Russia no tech 18g 6 cities
Netherlands no tech 322g 6 cities
Greece Poly 3g 7 cities
Germany no tech 0g 4 cities
Spain no tech 351g 5 cities
(..)
Really really sorry I jumped the gun on Maps.
Yes, waiting would have given us a 2fer1; but the risk of it being different; namely:
no Poly and 4 civs with Mapmaking (thus ruining our trade chances) was enough to justify the trade.
Don't be sorry; you had a great trade-turn. And the best news is; only 1 civ has Poly, so a possible 2fer1 is still very well possible, if (let's say Spain) discovers Philosophy (+1 extra tech) first.
Concur with Rik's assessment. Well done.
TO my way of thinking, there are three elements in any knowledge trade:
1) Can we afford it?
2) Do we need it?
3) Can it be traded off profitably?
If you fulfill two of those conditions it's a good deal, when you can get all three it's an excellent deal. If the deal meets only one condition, pass, unless #2 has overwhelming importance, i.e., failure to make the deal means imminent destruction of the nation, or loss of the game.
So on that basis, I think you have earned an Alpha Double Plus, peacemonger.
TO my way of thinking, there are three elements in any knowledge trade:
1) Can we afford it?
2) Do we need it?
3) Can it be traded off profitably?
If you fulfill two of those conditions it's a good deal, when you can get all three it's an excellent deal. If the deal meets only one condition, pass, unless #2 has overwhelming importance, i.e., failure to make the deal means imminent destruction of the nation, or loss of the game.
So on that basis, I think you have earned an Alpha Double Plus, peacemonger.
trikos
Chieftain
Got the game and will play tomorrow.
oopsy poopsy
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2004
- Messages
- 202
I'm viewing this on my brand new 19" lcd (i love christmas!) I've been out of touch but I'll look at the save tommorrow. Looks like a good trade to me from the reading though. Merry christmas everybody (even if you don't celebrate it).
trikos
Chieftain
Pre turn observations:
Japan no tech 77g 8 cities (research: not 100 percent)
Russia no tech 22g 6 cities (research: 100 percent)
Netherlands no tech 347g 7 cities (+25g - GH?)
Greece Poly 17g 8 cities (research: not 100 percent)
Germany no tech 10g 4 cities (research: not 100 percent)
Spain no tech 376g 5 cities (research: not 100 percent, but close)
Korea no tech 25g 5 cities (research: 100 percent)
We have: 1186g, 11 cities
Can sell MM and math to Korea and MM to Russia. I don't see any reasons to do that. Poly monopoly is too expensive.
Mili
Average: Japan, Greece, Russia, Spain, Netherlands
Strong (us): Germany, Korea
FP: If we build FP near Osaka we reduce distance corruption the most. We have to attack Japan before we can do that. If we get a great leader we should use him to rush FP.
Barracks: Our cities with barracks build worker, granary, and a wonder.
Wonder: SoZ is being build in Theveste. I don't change it. Not sure that we can get it before the first wonder cascade, but we will loose shield if production is changed
Contacts: Russia still hasn't met anybody but us.
Leptis Minor: Archer -> Harbor
Hit return
IBT:
Utica: Worker -> Horseman (need higher pop)
Abandon Rusicade
Spanish build Great Lighthouse
1: 950BC
Settle Rusaddir - start a temple (the city is corrupted. Couldn't come up with something better. feel free to change that)
Oea: Change archer to barracks
Trading:
Japan no tech 77g
Russia no tech 22g
Netherlands no tech 347g
Greece Poly 17g
Germany no tech 10g
Spain no tech 376g
Korea no tech 25g
IBT
Japanese warrior loose war. Second Japanese warrior wins (I guess against a barb)
2: 925BC
MM a bit. I think we need more mili, but decide to stick to the barracks for now.
Japan no tech 77g
Russia no tech 22g
Netherlands no tech 346g
Greece Poly 21g
Germany no tech 15g
Spain no tech 422g
Korea no tech 25g
IBT:
Barb shows up on the west peninsula.
3: 900BC
Carthage: setller -> settler (goes north to claim lux)
New tech: Spain got Philosophy and plus ~300 gold from the Netherlands who now also have philosophy.
Japan no tech 77g
Russia no tech 22g
Netherlands no tech 0g
Greece Poly 22g
Germany no tech 17g
Spain no tech 766g
Korea no tech 50g
Trading:
(I save the game)
I use Bede's three rules of thumb for trading:
Poly:
1) Can we afford it? Yes
2) Do we need it? Not right now (not an interesting wonder and we are (probably) not going for monarchy).
3) Can it be traded off profitably? No. Costs 342g.
Phil:
1) Can we afford it? Yes
2) Do we need it? Not right now (not an interesting wonder and nobody can research republic).
3) Can it be traded off profitably? No. We pay 194g. We can sell for 77+50+22+22+17=188<194. I wait although it is close.
Settle new city will pop GH. Decide to build road before I settle, i.e. I wait one turn.
IBT:
Barb attack archer at choke point. Archer down to 2 HP.
Spain starts tToA.
4: 875 BC
Settle Sulcis (starts harbor)
Settle Saldae. 3 barb warriors pop from GH (starts harbor)
Trading:
No new techs. A few opponents got more money.
Phil:
1) Can we afford it? Yes
2) Do we need it? Not right now (not an interesting wonder and nobody can research republic).
3) Can it be traded off profitably? No. Costs 342g. Could be traded for Phil (194g), but we still need the 154g.
Phil:
1) Can we afford it? Yes
2) Do we need it? Not right now (not an interesting wonder and nobody can research republic).
3) Can it be traded off profitably? Yes. We pay 194g. We can sell for 102+50+24+22+19=215>194. I choose to buy Phil from Spain. It sold the tech cheaply to some of the opponents, but got all their money. That might have been a mistake (?).
IBT:
Spain and Russia starts MoA
A barb warrior is enjoying himself by pillaging a road near Nora
5: 850BC
We lack mili!!
Change Saldea to archer.
Do some MM.
Only Poly is up for sale and opponents lack gold. No trading.
IBT:
A galley is attacked by barbs and goes down.
Leptis Magna: Granary -> Swordsman (change tax to clown to boost production)
Japan and Korea starts MoA
6: 825BC
Greece researches Code of laws and sells it to Spain for close to 600gold. Greece and Spain has Poly and CoL. The only trades up.
Not much else of interest.
IBT:
Carthage: Settler -> settler (settler goes east)
Utica: Horseman -> Worker (now officially a worker factory )
7: 800BC
Germany got CoL. Don't know how. They didn't have any money.
An additional ivory is hooked up.
Barbs are still around Nora. A horseman is on his way to clean up.
IBT:
A barb attacks Nora and dies. Only one barb left and he pillages close to Hadremetum :-(.
8: 775BC
I should have taken these note for all turns...
Japan no tech 1g
Russia no tech 0g
Netherlands no tech 15g
Greece Poly,CoL 590g
Germany CoL 8g
Spain Poly,CoL 356g
Korea no tech 0g
IBT:
Oea: Barracks->Sword (next player can change this)
Utica: Worker-> Worker
9: 750 BC:
Lux goes to 20% until we get the Incence hooked up next turn.
Move some units around
IBT:
Dohh... wrote that I would change the lux slide but forgot to do it. Utica riots. Sorry.
Warrior and horseman show on the south icy part of the island.
Hadremetum: Archer-> Harbor
10: 730BC
Settle: Carthago Novo (harbor - prebuild courthouse)
Incene is online
Trading. The opponents got a bit more money.
Japan no tech 2g
Russia no tech 3g
Netherlands no tech 21g
Greece Poly,CoL 607g
Germany CoL 12g
Spain Poly,CoL 350g
Korea no tech 0g
Russia now has map maping. Russia and Japan still have no contact besides us.
Notes:
I haven't built any UU to prevent an early Golden Age.
We need a long term strategy to find out what to build (i.e. how and when do we want to attack Japan). Feel free to change the production in the cities.
I will post a screen shot later.
Saves
Save 730BC
Save 875BC - trade
Japan no tech 77g 8 cities (research: not 100 percent)
Russia no tech 22g 6 cities (research: 100 percent)
Netherlands no tech 347g 7 cities (+25g - GH?)
Greece Poly 17g 8 cities (research: not 100 percent)
Germany no tech 10g 4 cities (research: not 100 percent)
Spain no tech 376g 5 cities (research: not 100 percent, but close)
Korea no tech 25g 5 cities (research: 100 percent)
We have: 1186g, 11 cities
Can sell MM and math to Korea and MM to Russia. I don't see any reasons to do that. Poly monopoly is too expensive.
Mili
Average: Japan, Greece, Russia, Spain, Netherlands
Strong (us): Germany, Korea
FP: If we build FP near Osaka we reduce distance corruption the most. We have to attack Japan before we can do that. If we get a great leader we should use him to rush FP.
Barracks: Our cities with barracks build worker, granary, and a wonder.
Wonder: SoZ is being build in Theveste. I don't change it. Not sure that we can get it before the first wonder cascade, but we will loose shield if production is changed
Contacts: Russia still hasn't met anybody but us.
Leptis Minor: Archer -> Harbor
Hit return
IBT:
Utica: Worker -> Horseman (need higher pop)
Abandon Rusicade
Spanish build Great Lighthouse
1: 950BC
Settle Rusaddir - start a temple (the city is corrupted. Couldn't come up with something better. feel free to change that)
Oea: Change archer to barracks
Trading:
Japan no tech 77g
Russia no tech 22g
Netherlands no tech 347g
Greece Poly 17g
Germany no tech 10g
Spain no tech 376g
Korea no tech 25g
IBT
Japanese warrior loose war. Second Japanese warrior wins (I guess against a barb)
2: 925BC
MM a bit. I think we need more mili, but decide to stick to the barracks for now.
Japan no tech 77g
Russia no tech 22g
Netherlands no tech 346g
Greece Poly 21g
Germany no tech 15g
Spain no tech 422g
Korea no tech 25g
IBT:
Barb shows up on the west peninsula.
3: 900BC
Carthage: setller -> settler (goes north to claim lux)
New tech: Spain got Philosophy and plus ~300 gold from the Netherlands who now also have philosophy.
Japan no tech 77g
Russia no tech 22g
Netherlands no tech 0g
Greece Poly 22g
Germany no tech 17g
Spain no tech 766g
Korea no tech 50g
Trading:
(I save the game)
I use Bede's three rules of thumb for trading:
Poly:
1) Can we afford it? Yes
2) Do we need it? Not right now (not an interesting wonder and we are (probably) not going for monarchy).
3) Can it be traded off profitably? No. Costs 342g.
Phil:
1) Can we afford it? Yes
2) Do we need it? Not right now (not an interesting wonder and nobody can research republic).
3) Can it be traded off profitably? No. We pay 194g. We can sell for 77+50+22+22+17=188<194. I wait although it is close.
Settle new city will pop GH. Decide to build road before I settle, i.e. I wait one turn.
IBT:
Barb attack archer at choke point. Archer down to 2 HP.
Spain starts tToA.
4: 875 BC
Settle Sulcis (starts harbor)
Settle Saldae. 3 barb warriors pop from GH (starts harbor)
Trading:
No new techs. A few opponents got more money.
Phil:
1) Can we afford it? Yes
2) Do we need it? Not right now (not an interesting wonder and nobody can research republic).
3) Can it be traded off profitably? No. Costs 342g. Could be traded for Phil (194g), but we still need the 154g.
Phil:
1) Can we afford it? Yes
2) Do we need it? Not right now (not an interesting wonder and nobody can research republic).
3) Can it be traded off profitably? Yes. We pay 194g. We can sell for 102+50+24+22+19=215>194. I choose to buy Phil from Spain. It sold the tech cheaply to some of the opponents, but got all their money. That might have been a mistake (?).
IBT:
Spain and Russia starts MoA
A barb warrior is enjoying himself by pillaging a road near Nora
5: 850BC
We lack mili!!
Change Saldea to archer.
Do some MM.
Only Poly is up for sale and opponents lack gold. No trading.
IBT:
A galley is attacked by barbs and goes down.
Leptis Magna: Granary -> Swordsman (change tax to clown to boost production)
Japan and Korea starts MoA
6: 825BC
Greece researches Code of laws and sells it to Spain for close to 600gold. Greece and Spain has Poly and CoL. The only trades up.
Not much else of interest.
IBT:
Carthage: Settler -> settler (settler goes east)
Utica: Horseman -> Worker (now officially a worker factory
)7: 800BC
Germany got CoL. Don't know how. They didn't have any money.
An additional ivory is hooked up.
Barbs are still around Nora. A horseman is on his way to clean up.
IBT:
A barb attacks Nora and dies. Only one barb left and he pillages close to Hadremetum :-(.
8: 775BC
I should have taken these note for all turns...
Japan no tech 1g
Russia no tech 0g
Netherlands no tech 15g
Greece Poly,CoL 590g
Germany CoL 8g
Spain Poly,CoL 356g
Korea no tech 0g
IBT:
Oea: Barracks->Sword (next player can change this)
Utica: Worker-> Worker
9: 750 BC:
Lux goes to 20% until we get the Incence hooked up next turn.
Move some units around
IBT:
Dohh... wrote that I would change the lux slide but forgot to do it. Utica riots. Sorry.
Warrior and horseman show on the south icy part of the island.
Hadremetum: Archer-> Harbor
10: 730BC
Settle: Carthago Novo (harbor - prebuild courthouse)
Incene is online
Trading. The opponents got a bit more money.
Japan no tech 2g
Russia no tech 3g
Netherlands no tech 21g
Greece Poly,CoL 607g
Germany CoL 12g
Spain Poly,CoL 350g
Korea no tech 0g
Russia now has map maping. Russia and Japan still have no contact besides us.
Notes:
I haven't built any UU to prevent an early Golden Age.
We need a long term strategy to find out what to build (i.e. how and when do we want to attack Japan). Feel free to change the production in the cities.
I will post a screen shot later.
Saves
Save 730BC
Save 875BC - trade
