Training game emphasizing trading - Emperor
- Thread starter trikos
- Start date
Trade-remark.
This is not a situation we like to be in. 3 civs with invention up on us (but broke) and 1 civ who, besides Invention also 2 techs (Theo and Chiv).
For Theo + Chivalry Greece wants 4084 gold.
For Theo alone: 2254 gold.
For Chiv alone: 1830 gold.
I Don't know what is smart in this situation. I think it is waiting till 1 of the 3 gets another tech (hopefully a Monopoly tech).
This is not a situation we like to be in. 3 civs with invention up on us (but broke) and 1 civ who, besides Invention also 2 techs (Theo and Chiv).
For Theo + Chivalry Greece wants 4084 gold.
For Theo alone: 2254 gold.
For Chiv alone: 1830 gold.
I Don't know what is smart in this situation. I think it is waiting till 1 of the 3 gets another tech (hopefully a Monopoly tech).
Rushed some trebs in the north and markets and courts in the south then dialed up Alex to make a deal for Theology.
Spend 124gpt to get Theology from Greece then use it to buy Invention+4g from Korea.
Turns out Greece has Gunpowder as a monopoly.
Buy furs from Catherine of Russia for cash (464g) instead of tech.
There are no compensatory offers out there for Invention or Theology and we have lots of cash and even more soon.
Time to turn down the entertainment tax and go to work on military, the plan is to rush build maces, horses and NuMercs and push on into Japan with NuMercs, maces horses, and trebs, using the worker force to build roads across the jungles and mountains waiting for somebody to learn Chivalry so we can buy it and upgrade to knights for the killing move on Japan.
Korea comes calling wanting to sell us Literature for peanuts. Refuse.
Spanish finish off the Germans.
In 460 Russia declares with a two warrior sneak attack and a galley wandering the south coast.
Between 460 and 480 retreat a couple of AC's in the north, no victories for the NuMercs, though. Run trebs, horsemen and maces into Japan at Edo. Kill a few more Japanese spears and archers.
In 480 Greeks finish Sun Tzu's Art of War. Russian cascades to the Great Library. Chivalry just got a whole lot cheaper but the state of the Japanese defence is such we don't need it.
In 490 miscount the defenders at Edo and raze the town without getting a NuMerc victory.
In 500AD kill a Japanese archer with a NuMerc and we go gold.
Chivalry can be had from William of Netherlands for Theology and 2gpt if we are interested. Since the Japanese have no iron or horses knights aren't really worth it right now.
The war is proceeding a treat. We can resettle on the spot at Edo with a waiting settler which will give us a route into the Japanese homeland for trebs, Numercs, horses and maces. Their strongest defender is going to be spears and the AC so with treb support I'm not even sure the maces are needed.
There are more settlers at Carthage Novo or on the way north.
There is a single Russian archer cruising for a bruising out of Smolensk.
In 510 kill the Russian and move on Yokohama.
In 520 raze Yokohama and build Incense Harbor at the site of Edo.
By 550 we are at the gates of Matsuyama and have taken Smolensk from the Russians who are now willing to talk. They will include Gunpowder in the peace treaty for 35-37gpt.
The deal for Chivalry is still out there with Willie but it is still one of those not needed at the moment kind of things.
Continue the drive up the Japanese core, razing and re-settling. Use settlers rushed out of northern towns. Every new town built is worth 5gpt to the treasury so just cram them in along the coast, start a harbor and make the lonely citizen a tax collector for an extra gpt. Don't keep any Japanese towns. Their base culture is about 5X ours. They started it so don't let them up now that we've got them by the throat, or will have once we burn Osaka.
WE need to make a deal with the Russians for furs Lux tax is costing way too much.
Everybody else is broke.
We could take a run at Leo's or the Sistine Chapel at Leptis Magna if we wished, though everybody in the world started those or Knights Templar after the SunT to GreatLib cascade.
Build some more acqueducts in the south so we can get more towns to pop7+ for the unit support benefits.
The Front
Spend 124gpt to get Theology from Greece then use it to buy Invention+4g from Korea.
Turns out Greece has Gunpowder as a monopoly.
Buy furs from Catherine of Russia for cash (464g) instead of tech.
There are no compensatory offers out there for Invention or Theology and we have lots of cash and even more soon.
Time to turn down the entertainment tax and go to work on military, the plan is to rush build maces, horses and NuMercs and push on into Japan with NuMercs, maces horses, and trebs, using the worker force to build roads across the jungles and mountains waiting for somebody to learn Chivalry so we can buy it and upgrade to knights for the killing move on Japan.
Korea comes calling wanting to sell us Literature for peanuts. Refuse.
Spanish finish off the Germans.
In 460 Russia declares with a two warrior sneak attack and a galley wandering the south coast.
Between 460 and 480 retreat a couple of AC's in the north, no victories for the NuMercs, though. Run trebs, horsemen and maces into Japan at Edo. Kill a few more Japanese spears and archers.
In 480 Greeks finish Sun Tzu's Art of War. Russian cascades to the Great Library. Chivalry just got a whole lot cheaper but the state of the Japanese defence is such we don't need it.
In 490 miscount the defenders at Edo and raze the town without getting a NuMerc victory.
In 500AD kill a Japanese archer with a NuMerc and we go gold.
Chivalry can be had from William of Netherlands for Theology and 2gpt if we are interested. Since the Japanese have no iron or horses knights aren't really worth it right now.
The war is proceeding a treat. We can resettle on the spot at Edo with a waiting settler which will give us a route into the Japanese homeland for trebs, Numercs, horses and maces. Their strongest defender is going to be spears and the AC so with treb support I'm not even sure the maces are needed.
There are more settlers at Carthage Novo or on the way north.
There is a single Russian archer cruising for a bruising out of Smolensk.
In 510 kill the Russian and move on Yokohama.
In 520 raze Yokohama and build Incense Harbor at the site of Edo.
By 550 we are at the gates of Matsuyama and have taken Smolensk from the Russians who are now willing to talk. They will include Gunpowder in the peace treaty for 35-37gpt.
The deal for Chivalry is still out there with Willie but it is still one of those not needed at the moment kind of things.
Continue the drive up the Japanese core, razing and re-settling. Use settlers rushed out of northern towns. Every new town built is worth 5gpt to the treasury so just cram them in along the coast, start a harbor and make the lonely citizen a tax collector for an extra gpt. Don't keep any Japanese towns. Their base culture is about 5X ours. They started it so don't let them up now that we've got them by the throat, or will have once we burn Osaka.
WE need to make a deal with the Russians for furs Lux tax is costing way too much.
Everybody else is broke.
We could take a run at Leo's or the Sistine Chapel at Leptis Magna if we wished, though everybody in the world started those or Knights Templar after the SunT to GreatLib cascade.
Build some more acqueducts in the south so we can get more towns to pop7+ for the unit support benefits.
The Front
plarq
Crazy forever
Well,Osaka gets SoZ,do we need it or raze it
oopsy poopsy
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2004
- Messages
- 202
if osaka has SoZ, can't we just sit here and milk military leaders until it runs out? Every time it pops out a unit it will head straight towards us. the mountains and numercs chanel them right to where the trebs knock them down and we win easy battles. I've never done anything like this in my games before, but I've seen people do it. What do the warmongers out there think, is this a good idea?
We either have two choices if we want to continue the war and finish the Japanese.
1:We break the leader farm and move forward towards their cities taking cities as we go.
2:Leave the leader farm there and use other units from a different direction (water) to take the SoZ city.
1:We break the leader farm and move forward towards their cities taking cities as we go.
2:Leave the leader farm there and use other units from a different direction (water) to take the SoZ city.
Leader farming is possible but it will slow down the finish of the war. We have had nearly twenty turns already and war weariness will soon be an issue.
My preference is push on to the north and get Japan behind the mountains north of Kyoto. Then cut a peace treaty for the little town on the spit south of Kyoto and start consolidating our gains.
I have been pondering our situation for a couple of days and I have to echo Rik's comment "I don't like it".
Greece looks to be a run away nation right now. One thing we could do to slow them down is declare, remove the little town on the east coast, then sign everyone else in the world against them, except Russia as we need them as a counterweight to the Greeks. The risk is that they will steam roller the opposition and just get stronger. The up-side is that they will get knocked back a little and maybe somebody else can get some cash and start researching. Our only trade partner right now is Russia until Astronomy shows up and it will probably be the Greeks that have it....
So, end the war with Russia, buy her furs for gpt, then ship her whatever luxes we have available for cash. With that kind of encouragement maybe she will get off her duff and get scientific on us...Finish the war with Toku once Kyoto is ashes, then declare on Greece and start a cat fight.
My preference is push on to the north and get Japan behind the mountains north of Kyoto. Then cut a peace treaty for the little town on the spit south of Kyoto and start consolidating our gains.
I have been pondering our situation for a couple of days and I have to echo Rik's comment "I don't like it".
Greece looks to be a run away nation right now. One thing we could do to slow them down is declare, remove the little town on the east coast, then sign everyone else in the world against them, except Russia as we need them as a counterweight to the Greeks. The risk is that they will steam roller the opposition and just get stronger. The up-side is that they will get knocked back a little and maybe somebody else can get some cash and start researching. Our only trade partner right now is Russia until Astronomy shows up and it will probably be the Greeks that have it....
So, end the war with Russia, buy her furs for gpt, then ship her whatever luxes we have available for cash. With that kind of encouragement maybe she will get off her duff and get scientific on us...Finish the war with Toku once Kyoto is ashes, then declare on Greece and start a cat fight.
trikos
Chieftain
Sorry I haven't been around more recently. I have had some problems with my computer and some work issues. Things look better now (my computer works again).
Is this a correct roster? If is is - i got and will play today and/or tomorrow.
trikos - up
dl123654 - on deck
peacemonger
oopsy poopsy
plarq
bede.
Is this a correct roster? If is is - i got and will play today and/or tomorrow.
trikos - up
dl123654 - on deck
peacemonger
oopsy poopsy
plarq
bede.
trikos
Chieftain
Sorry guys for delaying the game. RL issues came up. I can't play today, but tomorrow (Sunday) should be ok. If it is not ok, please pick up the game.
peacemonger
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2004
- Messages
- 71
Hey trikos, how's the RL stuff going? Will you have a chance to play soon?
Meantime, anyone want to discuss the war strategy Bede outlined? Can we do back-to-back wars without suffering too much war-weariness? What will we have to give up to convince everyone else to dogpile Greece? Is it worth it to keep them in check? It's not like I've got any other brilliant ideas for slowing them down, but it's snowing here and I'm cabin fevering after hiding from inaugural nonsense last week, so figured to try and kick off a discussion.
Meantime, anyone want to discuss the war strategy Bede outlined? Can we do back-to-back wars without suffering too much war-weariness? What will we have to give up to convince everyone else to dogpile Greece? Is it worth it to keep them in check? It's not like I've got any other brilliant ideas for slowing them down, but it's snowing here and I'm cabin fevering after hiding from inaugural nonsense last week, so figured to try and kick off a discussion.
Back to back war with a new opponent is okay as long as we don't lose any troops or cities. Which is why Greece makes the perfect target. We can take the city in our NE then just sit back and whomp his landing forces while his neighbors attempt to deliver a trimming.
We do not want to involve Russia in any war with Greece, however. Hers is another scientific nation and we are her only viable per turn trading partner after that sneak attack. We want Cathy to grow stronger while the Greeks suffer.
What's the best way to do that?
@team,
if trikos doesn't post tonight how's this for an ongoing rota:
peacemonger - next if trikos doesn't post
dl123654 - on deck
oopsy poopsy
plarq
bede
trikos
We do not want to involve Russia in any war with Greece, however. Hers is another scientific nation and we are her only viable per turn trading partner after that sneak attack. We want Cathy to grow stronger while the Greeks suffer.
What's the best way to do that?
@team,
if trikos doesn't post tonight how's this for an ongoing rota:
peacemonger - next if trikos doesn't post
dl123654 - on deck
oopsy poopsy
plarq
bede
trikos
(Brother Bede goes to his dressing room, sheds his cossack and digs the Old Man's breehes, puttees, khaki shirt, Sam Browne belt and campaign hat out of the ammunition chest next to the dresser, straps on a Navy Colt and grabs a swagger stick from the elephant foot umbrella stand)
"Listen up ladies, this exercise will keep moving out. Time to rise and shine!
PFC peacemonger, you're up. Cpl Dl on deck, the rest of you watch closely.
Order of the Day:
24 hrs from last posted save to post your got it and intention to proceed.
24 hours for planning and discussion.
24 hours to execute.
Total of 72 hours from last posted log and save to new posted log and save.
Failure to post got it within first 24, skipped for this round.
Failure to execute within 48 hours of posted got it, skipped.
peacemonger, take it away.
"Listen up ladies, this exercise will keep moving out. Time to rise and shine!
PFC peacemonger, you're up. Cpl Dl on deck, the rest of you watch closely.
Order of the Day:
24 hrs from last posted save to post your got it and intention to proceed.
24 hours for planning and discussion.
24 hours to execute.
Total of 72 hours from last posted log and save to new posted log and save.
Failure to post got it within first 24, skipped for this round.
Failure to execute within 48 hours of posted got it, skipped.
peacemonger, take it away.
peacemonger
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2004
- Messages
- 71
sir, yessir. got it. 
oopsy poopsy
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2004
- Messages
- 202
Point taken. And on that note if I come up before this weekend this is a pre-emptive skip. I'm working 14 hour days right now and there's no room for anything. Sorry to anyone who's a workaholic and thinks that's average. I'm up after dl I think so it might not happen but if it comes around to me before friday consider this the go ahead for whoever's behind me.
On the war thing, I'm fine with moving on with the invasion and moving on to Greece. I mentioned the leadermongering thing 'cause I've read about it and seen it on the boards but I've never done it myself.
On the war thing, I'm fine with moving on with the invasion and moving on to Greece. I mentioned the leadermongering thing 'cause I've read about it and seen it on the boards but I've never done it myself.
peacemonger
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2004
- Messages
- 71
Peace with Russia, and pick up Gunpowder at 37gpt. The saltpeter is with Netherlands and of course Greece.
Buy furs for 25gpt + incense.
Japan sends galleys our way, and archers onto the mountaintops.
Builds -- keep making mili. Decide to forgo a wonder in LMagna (too much competition).
Carthago Novo starts an aqueduct.
BTW, the furs aren't enough during wartime to help with the lux tax, so we are still at 20%.
Get Settler/Numerc onto hill above Smolensk.
Warring, trying to kick Japanese off the mountains. Greece wants a gpt deal for his dyes, no thanks.
By 590, lux up to 30%, Japanese town has fallen, we are on our way to Osaka.
Greece still has monopoly on Ed, general tech status quo. Dang, trebs can't pass mountains.
Start loading them onto the galley at Incense Harbor and dumping in front of Osaka.
610 Spain has picked up Ed. It can be had for Ivory + Incense + 603.
Greece will give it for Ivory + Incense + World Map +262 or for lux + 403.
Of course we will not do trades with Greece, that was just a test on market price.
I do want to know what beyond Ed Greece already knows, and we could probably use Ed to pick
up Chiv from Dutch. Not sure how long before Dutch/Korea researches it on their own, but I choose to wait.
620 -- Korea has picked up Ed. Ok I will trade now.
Spain -- her price dropped to lux + 476.
Dutch -- Chiv would be 590 straight up. For Ed We get Chiv + 4g (all they had, they have no gpt)
The save at 620AD is included.
Greeks have Knghts Templar and are building Magellan (they just got Astronomy)
630 Osaka is razed. War Weariness is out of control. Also, I am bad at keeping track of this --
we lost somewhere our sea route to Spain so she will now be pissed about a broken trade.
We approach Kyoto -- it needs to be taken quickly so we can wrap this up and crank the lux back
down as our GA will end in a few turns. Greece now knows Banking too. So we need to get
onto taking them down a few pegs soon as well.
Buy furs for 25gpt + incense.
Japan sends galleys our way, and archers onto the mountaintops.
Builds -- keep making mili. Decide to forgo a wonder in LMagna (too much competition).
Carthago Novo starts an aqueduct.
BTW, the furs aren't enough during wartime to help with the lux tax, so we are still at 20%.
Get Settler/Numerc onto hill above Smolensk.
Warring, trying to kick Japanese off the mountains. Greece wants a gpt deal for his dyes, no thanks.
By 590, lux up to 30%, Japanese town has fallen, we are on our way to Osaka.
Greece still has monopoly on Ed, general tech status quo. Dang, trebs can't pass mountains.
Start loading them onto the galley at Incense Harbor and dumping in front of Osaka.
610 Spain has picked up Ed. It can be had for Ivory + Incense + 603.
Greece will give it for Ivory + Incense + World Map +262 or for lux + 403.
Of course we will not do trades with Greece, that was just a test on market price.
I do want to know what beyond Ed Greece already knows, and we could probably use Ed to pick
up Chiv from Dutch. Not sure how long before Dutch/Korea researches it on their own, but I choose to wait.
620 -- Korea has picked up Ed. Ok I will trade now.
Spain -- her price dropped to lux + 476.
Dutch -- Chiv would be 590 straight up. For Ed We get Chiv + 4g (all they had, they have no gpt)
The save at 620AD is included.
Greeks have Knghts Templar and are building Magellan (they just got Astronomy)
630 Osaka is razed. War Weariness is out of control. Also, I am bad at keeping track of this --
we lost somewhere our sea route to Spain so she will now be pissed about a broken trade.
We approach Kyoto -- it needs to be taken quickly so we can wrap this up and crank the lux back
down as our GA will end in a few turns. Greece now knows Banking too. So we need to get
onto taking them down a few pegs soon as well.
peacemonger said:
1: What do we want ?
There aren't any 2fer1's possible, as we are lacking behnd a bit. SO we want cheap techs. Ed is known to 4 out of 5 trading partners, Chiv to 5 out of 5. We want to purchase Ed as cheaply as possible and use it to obtain (or cheapen) the cost of Chiv. If we can get Lit; that would be a bonus, but not a neccessity.
And we also would very much like an extra luxury. Lux-slider is at 30% and we still hired some specialists. Just 1 notch down on the luxes gains us 70 gpt.
2: Peacemongers trade.
Step 1: We bought Ed from Spain for 2 luxuries + 476 gold. Other candidates were:
Greece: 2 luxes + WM + 162 gold.
Greece: 2 luxes + 296 gold.
The others we either lack a traderoute with or already have the luxes we can offer.
Step 2:
Ed to NL for Chiv +4.
As the dutch were the only one lacking Ed and in the possession of Chiv, this was a no-brainer.
3: The Timing.
Was it the right moment to trade? Yes. Korea just got Ed, so the window of opportunity for buying 1 tech to obtain another was closing.
4: The trading partner.
I am not happy with the trading partner Spain. Buying from Greece (with or without our WM is not important) was a lot cheaper then from Spain. And yes, Greece is higher in score than Spain; but that only matters in the vry beginning or if the rest of the parameters are the same. Here Greece asked nearly 200 gold less. And with our WM even 300+ gold less. That is a lot !!
I also noticed that we are running high on lux-slider and if we can notch it down to 20% we gain 73 gpt. Greece has dyes on offer. That means if we want it, we can pay nearly 72 gpt for it and still be better of.
I prefer to pay gpt in these stages of the game; because we need cash for other things (cashrushes for instance) and if Greece breaks a deal it means we haven't had to pay the full price for it.
I would have done this trade:
Riks Alternative
Step 1: Ed + dyes from Greece for Incense + Ivory + WM + 41 gpt + 6 gold.
Step 2: Ed to Dutch for Chiv + 4 gold.
Trading isn't just trying to buy the cheapest techs; also smart money-management and obtaining what you want and need. Buying a tech and after that a luxury usually ends up more expensive than buying them together. The same holds true with buying more luxuries / resources from the same partner. In general: we buy in a lot, and sell seperately. Peacemonger's Ed-purchase (and mine) is a bad example of this, however.
Rik's conclusion
Good timing (I think noone made a mistake in timing yet). Shame you missed the need for a luxury. It would have helped our nation a lot. Not much of a drop in cash and an increase in revenue we could have had.
Picking the wrong trading partner is a mistake that shouldn't happen anymore in these stages of the game. Score gets less and less meaning now, as we are enterring the stages where the other (more important) parameters start to differ. In the early game the parameters are often equal, so we look at score. In the middle-game and end-game you will see difference in what civs want to pay or ask for techs and resources, and those parameters are more important than score.
It was an ok-trade, but not a good one.
