Trance/Empath/Plasma Psions --worth it?

[Gavinfoxx]

So one of the things I like to do with the various Civ4 editions and Civ4 mods is figure out minor exploits of the upgrade system. These have been around since the original Civ4, whenever a unit that had certain possible experience options upgraded to something that had different possibilities.

From what I can figure, the "best" of these in Planetfall is upgrading the second highest flamethrower unit (Hyperion, I think? the one that is about 5 or so?) to a Psion, to thereby go from flamethrower to infantry. This lets you get, if you have the right buildings in your base, a "Plasma/Empath/Trance" Psion, which seems to be a relatively powerful and well balanced unit. Anyone else have any more examples of this in Planetfall?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Best upgrade: Unity Rover with 9 stars, upgraded to a rotor. Kills everything inside a city within reason.

 

[Gavinfoxx]

Well that isn't the type of upgrade I mentioned. You could just get a rotor with 9 stars, since stars are for EVERYTHING... this discussion is supposed to be for "otherwise impossible" upgrades.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Sorry. I thought the unity rover units belong to a different class as the choppers and rotors. I've been just playing a terraformer game (never even built or captured a mind worm) so don't know about crossing the line between flamers and infantry. All I want to do is kill mindworms...

 

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, I checked, and I *think* there is no difference going from rover -> chopper... but maybe there should be?? Shouldn't a rover unit be able to get some early game useful bonus that the later ones don't get, so upgrading rovers might be useful?

 

[King Flevance]

I don't know - I think combat 7-9 Rotors are pretty tough.

 

[Gavinfoxx]

Combat 7-9 ANYTHING is tough. But I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE COMBAT UPGRADES.

I am talking about, you know, the upgrades that are the *grey* buttons, and the ones enabled by clicking on one of the grey upgrade buttons. You know the item type slots...

 

[King Flevance]

Ah yeah, they are called special abilities. I think scavenger is awesome. I like making my walkers get scavenger. 1 good combat victory and he is like a rolling momentum ball of awesomeness.

My point was early rovers are already tough. There is no need to make them even more bad ass.

Shouldn't a rover unit be able to get some early game useful bonus that the later ones don't get, so upgrading rovers might be useful?

No they shouldn't. A rover having combat 4 with 0 xp that upgrades along the helocopter line (Anti-Art) isn't useful enough? Early game I try to get my hands on as many of these as I can. Then once I have a sufficient amount, go for 2 ones.

 

[Gavinfoxx]

Yes, I was talking about special abilities the whole time... I consider those "things you can only get on a late unit by upgrading" one of those fun, "secret" things that you can do in Civ4 and mods. That's why I was saying Trance/Empath/Plasma Shard Psion, because that normally isn't possible.

Ohhh, you mean the ones that have extra bonuses at 0 XP... yea, I know what you are talking about! Though there doesn't seem to get any of the ones you mentioned any special abilities. Maybe they should start with Scavenger??

 

[Maniac]

So one of the things I like to do with the various Civ4 editions and Civ4 mods is figure out minor exploits of the upgrade system.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I do my very best to avoid such exploits.

 

[Gavinfoxx]

Sorry to disappoint you, but I do my very best to avoid such exploits.

...Does this mean that this one will disappear soon?

 

[Gavinfoxx]

Okay, so I did a bit of testing, mucking about with the worldbuilder, and this is what I discovered...

To pull this off, it's best to be the Gaians, as the +50% psi defense helps quite a bit (for the inevitable counterattack..), as do the movement bonuses. You need the following techs: Centauri Meditation (For Empath Song), Doctrine Mobility (For Command Center), Biofuel (For Hyperian), High Energy Chemistry (For Plasma Shard), and Psionics (for Psion). You need to NOT have the Ecological Engineering tech. You build a command center in the base, and then build a Hyperian, and select Plasma Shard as the upgrade, then upgrade to Psion. Bam, you have a "very strong on the offense" Psion that can stand up, in numbers, to pretty much any unit out there. To further make it the ultimate "late game" attack method, add Needlejet (for Dropship and Aerospace Complex), and Terraforming (For Forest Camoflauge), and build an aerospace complex, and Dropships, and make them Guerilla/Forest Camouflage, which basically gives the Gains the FASTEST way to move your Psions around. The hardest thing to do with this would be to fight a super-entrenched Rocky Yang Base, or fighting, say, entrenched Spartan Trance/Garrison Hyperions...or Plasma Needlejets, but from what I can see, it would be doable... Any thoughts?

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Thoughts???
You man just renewed my faith in the Gaians.
A strategy I can and will try out soon.

 

[Gavinfoxx]

PPQ_P:

So how did you do? Oh if you want to make it even MORE late game, you can add gene spicing for bioenhanced, and field modulation for resonadar (you will probably have gotten biofuel instead of field modulation first...)

Recently, I tried this, and to me it seems that mind worms (and locusts for that matter) seem to be "good enough", and are a lot cheaper, and if you have maxxed out your mind worms... well... you should have a pretty nice army then...

Also, I noticed that Miriam DOES get the "convictions" bonus against psi attacks...

 

[PPQ_Purple]

How did I do? Well I am playing a hotseat game and am about 5 turns away from psions right now.
My brother does not like to play more than a hour or two a day.
So we will see in a few days.

 

[Gavinfoxx]

How did I do? Well I am playing a hotseat game and am about 5 turns away from psions right now.
My brother does not like to play more than a hour or two a day.
So we will see in a few days.

Do you have mobility, biofuel, command centers built in your high mineral bases, and high energy chemistry for plasma shards?

Also, sadly, if the belief bonus works with psy attack... Miriam might actually be *better* at this than Deirdre! (grrr...)

 

[Gavinfoxx]

Hmmmm...

I did some tests.

According to the battle predictor thingy, Even if you ARE a Psion... unless you are fighting a psi unit -- a native life or a psion -- you neither get the bonus to psi attack from Empath NOR do you get the bonus from Plasma Shard!

So empath and plasma shardshould say, "+25% attack vs. psi units".. IMHO, it should really be "+1 psi attack", and simply increase the psi attack from 3 to 4, and with both, to 5... Let the empath for the native units be obviously less powerful than the one for psions -- native life gets a huge bonus anyway... same with trance, should be "+1 psi defense", actually upping the number from 2 to 3.

Damn. Oh well...

I would *really* have liked it if Psions had gotten either bonus...

 

[PPQ_Purple]

So my entire game building strategy is dead even before I have gotten to it?
Well, there is always plan B.

 

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, if you want to get a combat bonus, you are apparently going to have to play Miriam... and if you are playing Miriam, you should probably be popping lots of psych chaplains, using them for tech, and going for massively powerful Helions anyway...

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Nah, I am just going to use those optimized hamer cities that now have hybrid forests to pop loads of Planet Busters and grind my brother into the sea.