Trauma? Take a pill, you won't remember a thing.

Pirate

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From the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43210-2004Oct18.html

It's a fairly long article so I can't quote the whole thing, but the basic gist is that scientists are experimenting with drugs that will inhibit the formation of memories if taken following a traumatic experience. It works by inhibiting the function of stress hormones which etch memories into the brain. It may also be used to deaden the effects of older memories.

It has therapeutic uses - helping people cope with a tragedy like a rape or 9/11-like disasters. The military is also interested in administering it to soldiers so they don't vividly remember the horrors of war. The potential for misuse is there as well - could we see something like the movie "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind" in real life?

So the question is, is it a good idea to mess with memories when they are such an integral part of our identity? Frankly I'm just shocked that it is even possible.
 
No, propranolol. Rohipnol (GHB? AKA date-rape drug) inhibits memory because it knocks you unconscious. Same thing with alcohol blackouts - it just shuts your brain down and they have obvious bad side effects. Propranolol is different because it directly changes your brain chemistry to inhibit the formation of memories.

At the end of the article they mention that scientists are also working on the same thing with THC, the active ingredient in marijuana.
 
I dunno that this is a good idea. Take the soldier scenario. It could be worse, if you cannot remember them, just to know that you were present during attrocities.. the question of who commited the evils: Were they war crimes? Performed by you? Your best friend? That scarey big mouthed sergeant?

Sometimes it's best to know the truth. Invented answers can be exagerated and have dissasterous consequences. We should not promote ignorance.
 
Maybe I'm mis-stating the effects (the article is obviously more accurate than my summary). It is intended as a therapy for post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). By effecting the stress hormones responsible for traumatic memories the hope is that you would not suffer from the flashbacks, nervousness, depression or other effects of PTSD. I don't think it completely wipes out the memory. Of course they still don't know its full effects. Stormbind's concern is definitely valid.
 
I read about this, it seems they do not take away the memory but rather decrease the emotional value stored with it. This way it gets stored in a less 'central' place. How this works chemically, I'm not sure, but the effect seems to be that there stays room for other things to 'get through' to the person with the trauma, and so helping to cope with the situation.
 
Are you confusing Propofol with propanolol? Both have been around for years but propranolol is a beta blocker that has been used for high blood pressure, migraines and a myriad of other uses. Propofol is an intravenous sedative that can be used for general anesthesia.
 
I have a positive view on weakening memories. It's good if people can be saved from walking around with a painful war/rape/etc trauma all their life.
 
Norlamand said:
Are you confusing Propofol with propanolol? Both have been around for years but propranolol is a beta blocker that has been used for high blood pressure, migraines and a myriad of other uses. Propofol is an intravenous sedative that can be used for general anesthesia.
No. Read the article. It clearly says "propranolol."
Hakiim said:
I have a positive view on weakening memories. It's good if people can be saved from walking around with a painful war/rape/etc trauma all their life.
I tend to agree, but I see tremendous potential for abuse of this drug. Some people think Prozac is overprescribed? Just wait. You'll have students taking it after final exams or driver's tests, stressed out businessmen taking it daily to unwind from their hectic days, and women packing handfuls along for their holiday trip to visit their mother-in-law. Maybe I'm exaggerating, but if someone says there is a pill that eliminates painful memories and regret, then you'll see plenty of people taking it for everyday things, just like anti-depressants today. (Not to say anti-depressants are always bad or misused, but there is a widespread sentiment that they are overprescribed)
 
BAD BAD BAD This can be so misused it makes me ill just thinking about it. And what is wrong with memories? Tramatic events are not meant to be forgotten, they are meant to be confronted and dealt with. Pills will not solve all your problems America!
 
andrewgprv said:
BAD BAD BAD This can be so misused it makes me ill just thinking about it. And what is wrong with memories? Tramatic events are not meant to be forgotten, they are meant to be confronted and dealt with. Pills will not solve all your problems America!

What if a person was unable to cope with the memory of a violent carjacking and became depressed and agoraphobic (won't go out in public) - What would be worse, being prescribed the memory-deadening drug to forget? or being prescribed an anti-depressant to help them cope?
 
andrewgprv said:
BAD BAD BAD This can be so misused it makes me ill just thinking about it. And what is wrong with memories? Tramatic events are not meant to be forgotten, they are meant to be confronted and dealt with. Pills will not solve all your problems America!

They already have drugs very similar to this which many hospitals use before and after surgeries. It's nothing really that new. Not to mention, there are hundreds of other drugs out there that have pretty much the same affect...

Oh, and I beg to differ that tramatic events are supposed to be remembered...
 
I would never allow such a thing to happen to me. I've never went in for mind-altering drugs, and I never will.
 
The drug is propranolol, as Normaland points out it has been used for years for high blood pressure. It DOES NOT erase or block memories, it just reduces the intensity of the emotional component of the memory and thereby helps reduce PTSD. A very goiod thing IMO.
 
I tried to read the article but it requires registration. Anyway- from what I can gather the purpose is not to prevent formation or maintanence of memory, but rather to prevent the adverse effects that often accompany traumatic events- when you consider that these effects can include alterations (and I don't mean good ones) in the structure of certain parts of the brain involved in emotion- this is potentially a very significant development. Think about that- in some people traumatic memories actually damage the brain, I find it hard to see how something that prevents that is not a good thning. Obviously, I'm assuming there are no, or at most minor, adverse side-effects.
 
Ever heard while reading about World War 1/2 about soliders with the "Thousand yard stare?" It was caused not by what the soliders had seen, but them trying to forget the memories. Really screwed with their minds, ive seen pictures and it aint pretty. I say the drugs are great, many people sijmjply cannot cope with some thigns and need help. As long as they remember, i dont really see a negative here.
 
Mrogreturns said:
I tried to read the article but it requires registration.
Really? Sorry. Here's the article:
Washington Post said:
Is Every Memory Worth Keeping?
Controversy Over Pills to Reduce Mental Trauma

By Rob Stein
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, October 19, 2004; Page A01

Kathleen Logue was waiting at a traffic light when two men smashed her car's side window, pointed a gun at her head and ordered her to drive. For hours, Logue fought off her attackers' attempts to rape her, and finally she escaped. But for years afterward, she was tormented by memories of that terrifying day.

So years later, after a speeding bicycle messenger knocked the Boston paralegal onto the pavement in front of oncoming traffic, Logue jumped at a chance to try something that might prevent her from being haunted by her latest ordeal.

"I didn't want to suffer years and years of cold sweats and nightmares and not being able to function again," Logue said. "I was prone to it because I had suffered post-traumatic stress from being carjacked. I didn't want to go through that again."

Logue volunteered for an experiment designed to test whether taking a pill immediately after a terrorizing experience might reduce the risk of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). The study is part of a promising but controversial field of research seeking to alter, or possibly erase, the impact of painful memories -- a concept dubbed "therapeutic forgetting" by some and taken to science fiction extremes in films such as this summer's "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind."

Proponents say it could lead to pills that prevent or treat PTSD in soldiers coping with the horrors of battle, torture victims recovering from brutalization, survivors who fled the World Trade Center on Sept. 11, 2001, and other victims of severe, psychologically devastating experiences.

"Some memories can be very disruptive. They come back to you when you don't want to have them -- in a daydream or nightmare or flashbacks -- and are usually accompanied by very painful emotions," said Roger K. Pitman, a professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School who is studying the approach. "This could relieve a lot of that suffering."

Skeptics, however, argue that tinkering with memories treads into dangerous territory because memories are part of the very essence of a person's identity, as well as crucial threads in the fabric of society that help humanity avoid the mistakes of the past.

"All of us can think of traumatic events in our lives that were horrible at the time but made us who we are. I'm not sure we'd want to wipe those memories out," said Rebecca S. Dresser, a medical ethicist at Washington University in St. Louis who serves on the President's Council on Bioethics, which condemned the research last year. "We don't have an omniscient view of what's best for the world."

Some fear anything designed for those severely disabled by psychic damage will eventually end up being used far more casually -- to, perhaps, forget a bad date or a lousy day at work.

"You can easily imagine a scenario of 'I was embarrassed at my boss's party last night, and I want to take something to forget it so I can have more confidence when I go into the office tomorrow,' " said David Magnus, co-director of Stanford University's Center for Biomedical Ethics. "It's not hard to imagine that it will end up being used much more broadly."

So far, only a handful of small studies have been conducted in people in the United States and France, most testing a drug called propranolol, which blocks the action of stress hormones that etch memories in the brain. The results suggest drugs may be able to prevent traumatic memories from being stored with such disturbing intensity in the first place, or perhaps deaden effects of old memories if taken shortly after they have been reawakened. The results have been promising enough that researchers are planning larger studies in several countries, including the United States, Canada, France and Israel, testing propranolol and other drugs, including the active components of marijuana.

"You always have the ability to misuse science," said Joseph E. LeDoux, a New York University memory researcher planning one of the studies. "But this isn't going to be radical surgery on memory. All we'd like to do is help people have better control of memories they want or prevent intrusive memories from coming into their minds when they don't want them."
The ability to manipulate memory has long been the stuff of science fiction, inspiring fears of government mind control and films such as the 1962 classic "The Manchurian Candidate." No one is anywhere near having the power to extract the memory of a love affair or implant complex new memories, as depicted in "Eternal Sunshine" and a 2004 "Manchurian Candidate" remake.

But scientists have started taking the first tentative steps toward developing treatments based on new insights into why emotionally charged events -- whether it be President John F. Kennedy's assassination, Sept. 11 or a first kiss -- create such indelible memories.

"Whatever is being learned at the time of emotional arousal is learned much more strongly," said James L. McGaugh of the University of California at Irvine. McGaugh demonstrated that strong emotions -- fear, love, hate, panic -- trigger stress hormones such as adrenalin and cortisol, which activate a part of the brain called the amygdala, creating unusually vivid, emotionally charged memories. "Any strong emotion will have that effect. It could be winning a Nobel Prize. It could be a very faint whisper in the ear, 'I love you,' at the right time."

Propranolol, widely used for heart patients, blocks the action of stress hormones on the amygdala, which led researchers to start testing whether it could prevent PTSD. The study Logue was in, along with a similar one in France, found that people who took propranolol immediately after a traffic accident or some other traumatic experience had fewer physical symptoms of PTSD months later.

"I really think it helped," said Logue, 35. "It helped not bring back my earlier bout with post-traumatic stress and made it easier to cope with this new incident. I look both ways before I cross a one-way street now, but I'm not in a panic."

So far, the research has suggested only that the emotional effects of memories may be blunted, not that the memories themselves are erased.

"I think it's an unfortunate misconception that it's blotting out memories," said Charles R. Marmar of the San Francisco Veterans Affairs Medical Center, who helped conduct the French study. "What it does is help people manage the memories so they can tolerate them."

But other researchers are trying to go further, possibly deadening or even obliterating any effects of old memories.
"People had thought that once a memory was stored or consolidated it stays that way. People thought, it's there for life -- it's fixed," said Karim Nader, a neuroscientist at McGill University in Montreal. "We showed that wasn't the case."

Laboratory rats trained to fear a tone completely lost that fear when scientists injected into their brains a drug that blocked formation of proteins necessary for memory storage while the animals were prompted to reexperience fear and store the memory again.
"When you activate a memory, it comes back up in a dynamic state and has to be restabilized using the same mechanisms that stored it in the first place. You can interfere with that," Nader said.

A small preliminary study being presented next week at a Society for Neuroscience meeting in San Diego tested for the first time whether propranolol can affect old memories in people.

"We have no idea whether it's erasing memory or putting a fence around the memory," LeDoux said. "But from the point of view of the PTSD patient, it doesn't matter as long as the effects are gone."

But some ethicists question this whole line of research.

"Our experiences and our memories in a lot of ways define us and define who we are," Magnus said. "And so that's a scary step to go down. We should be very careful about going down a path that could lead to a serious alteration of the core essence of our identities."

Beyond the personal impact, ethicists also worry about the societal implications.

"Consider the case of a person who has suffered or witnessed atrocities that occasion unbearable memories: for example, those with firsthand experience of the Holocaust," the President's Council on Bioethics wrote. "The life of that individual might well be served by dulling such bitter memories, but such a humanitarian intervention, if widely practiced, would seem deeply troubling: Would the community as a whole -- would the human race -- be served by such a mass numbing of this terrible but indispensable memory?"

The researchers acknowledge the prickly ethical questions but argue that the research should go forward because of its potential to alleviate suffering.

"I approach it from a medical standpoint -- that PTSD is as much a medical disorder as a broken leg," Pitman said. "I don't say they don't have legitimate concerns, but it's hard to argue we shouldn't pursue this just because of ethical speculations."

Psychiatrists at the University of California at San Diego are finishing a follow-up pilot study on accident victims. Pitman and the French team are starting bigger studies to confirm their initial emergency room findings. And Nader and colleagues in Montreal, and LeDoux and his colleagues in New York, are beginning studies in PTSD patients who will take propranolol immediately after reliving their traumatic memories to see if it can affect memory re-storage, known as "reconsolidation." Researchers at Hebrew University in Jerusalem are planning a similar study involving the active ingredient in marijuana.

Marmar and Pitman are working on identifying those most prone to PTSD, with the idea that they could receive propranolol immediately after a terrorist attack or some other traumatizing disaster.

"If this is safe and effective, it's one of the few tools we'd have in the case of a mass disaster," Marmar said. "What are you going to do if there's a dirty bomb? You'll have widespread panic. Do you want these poor people to be haunted by this searing memory?"
 
Maybe this is not the common belief, and most people will probably say "well you probably have had nothing traumatic happen so you would not know" but I think almost no matter how bad a thing I saw was, it was God's will I saw it and he does everything for a reason, I would not want to wipe my memories out regardless I think.

Every experience provides you with.....experience, regardless of how bad it may have been.
 
And here I have been dreaming about a mind-altering drug for months.

I would actually love it, it would be anything to blunt the pain against something that I call the "voices" in my mind. I don't think I'm a schizo or what-not - simply, it's just biting memoiries that come back in horrific and haunting ways. Because If the event turned out OK when it first occured, a few months later it will become the worst event ever. I've had awkward moments that will soon run into single, whole memories that consist only of embarassment, shame and pain. I think that my problem is that I emotionalize and overly-sensitize the memory so it hurts if I think about it. And it's getting harder and harder to suppress those memories, because it simply becomes worse the longer I hold it back.

However they're caused, it interferes with my work ethic and ability to absorb and learn information, becuase I have no support - that I mean, no friends. If it gets in my mind - the part of the mind that focuses on what is on mind, it virtually takes up my entire resources and support, and I retreat back into a state of minimal existance to deal with the memory. There are certain triggers that cause them - usually the nagging problem of nostalga, since I may be walking and suddenly remember "two years ago, when I used to eat lunch in the quad."

I think I've gone on too long. The point is, I have traced back all these problems of concentration, memories, and voices - to a serious and oversensitive to become over-emotional and, well, soft. So if any drug can suppress the emotional fall-out, I might just be able to get through my junior year, because I'm already nearly failing ASL and Physics.
 
I've an inner hate and disgust for anything that manipulate my brain.
This is awful. It just cries for abuse. The military projected use is a good example at how you can easily manipulate people with this.

I'm more and more afraid about how technology progressively allows for control not only over people, but even over people's mind.
Bah !
 
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