ComradeRed
Civilized Expansionist
when someone builds the Halocaust, you'll hear about it and you can go and attack them, it makes it feel like you have a reason. The game might not see it that way, but hell, it's more fun that way.
Triple Your Governments MOD - v5 FULLY FUNCTIONAL
- Thread starter ComradeRed
- Start date
Comrade,
I think you should defintely work with Plutarck. He can help you, and you guys won't overlap your work. You seem more government, he is more unit and wonder. He has the graphic thing down. Between the two of you, you can make some great mods.
I think there is a problem with resources at the moment. Only 2 can be added. After that, you won't be able to see them. You may want to hold off on that. It will break other mods people have.
THe halocost gives me a funy feeling. IMHO I don't think it should be in. Your right, we could just remove it ourselve. Maybe you could make it a seperate mod?
I think you should defintely work with Plutarck. He can help you, and you guys won't overlap your work. You seem more government, he is more unit and wonder. He has the graphic thing down. Between the two of you, you can make some great mods.
I think there is a problem with resources at the moment. Only 2 can be added. After that, you won't be able to see them. You may want to hold off on that. It will break other mods people have.
THe halocost gives me a funy feeling. IMHO I don't think it should be in. Your right, we could just remove it ourselve. Maybe you could make it a seperate mod?
ComradeRed
Civilized Expansionist
interesting.... well he's certainly more than welcome to help if he wants. I don't really want to have to mess with all of those pictures...... Plutarck, if you're there, and you're interested, write me at stevetash@redutopia.ws
ruprecht
Chieftain
Okay, why would any civilization want to build this Holocaust wonder if its sole purpose is to give other nations a rational to attack them? Even a concentration camp city improvement needs a rational. Does it cut down on crime? Scare your population into submission?
It makes little sense to have game options that only a lunatic would choose, even its based on a historical reality.
It makes little sense to have game options that only a lunatic would choose, even its based on a historical reality.
ComradeRed
Civilized Expansionist
And the camps and the halocaust do have positive benefits, just negative as well. And the justification for war is all in my mind, I can't make that incorporated into the game.
ruprecht
Chieftain
Facism (Latin American/Italian/German) is basically covered by the current Republic, just pack the cities with troops to keep the people silent. That's basically the same thing as Facism, its not some wonder political process, its basically about scaring the tar out of everyone so they behave and promoting nationalism to distract people.
The NAZI's were successful not because of Facism, but because the Germans have a lot of people and they are really good with building things like cars, planes and tanks (Militaristic, Scientific). Time a Golden Age to appear the first time a panzer attacks another country and you've got Nazi Germany without a patch or another government. You want deathcamps you can starve your cities so they lose population. That gets rid of the troublemakers without changing the rules.
Stalinism would be Communism with troops in the cities and starving the populous in certain areas and putting taxmen instead of entertainers in each city to milk as much as you could from each city. This works for Chinese Communism as well.
Text book marxism would be communism as shown in the game, but choosing to build luxuries, etc instead of tanks.
European/Canadian/Australian Social Democracy would be Democracy with tons spent on luxuries to make the folks happy, happy, happy and lots of extra city improvements to make them even happier.
American/Hong Kong Capitalist Democracy would be Democracy with less spent on luxuries to make the folks happy and more spent on science and to get cash in general (to pay for troops in America or simply cash for Hong Kong before the takeover).
Its all in the game already, its just a matter of how you play the civ. I don't understand the need to start adjusting basic gameplay already. The game is still brand new.
The NAZI's were successful not because of Facism, but because the Germans have a lot of people and they are really good with building things like cars, planes and tanks (Militaristic, Scientific). Time a Golden Age to appear the first time a panzer attacks another country and you've got Nazi Germany without a patch or another government. You want deathcamps you can starve your cities so they lose population. That gets rid of the troublemakers without changing the rules.
Stalinism would be Communism with troops in the cities and starving the populous in certain areas and putting taxmen instead of entertainers in each city to milk as much as you could from each city. This works for Chinese Communism as well.
Text book marxism would be communism as shown in the game, but choosing to build luxuries, etc instead of tanks.
European/Canadian/Australian Social Democracy would be Democracy with tons spent on luxuries to make the folks happy, happy, happy and lots of extra city improvements to make them even happier.
American/Hong Kong Capitalist Democracy would be Democracy with less spent on luxuries to make the folks happy and more spent on science and to get cash in general (to pay for troops in America or simply cash for Hong Kong before the takeover).
Its all in the game already, its just a matter of how you play the civ. I don't understand the need to start adjusting basic gameplay already. The game is still brand new.
Hmm but the point of the mod is customize it further. The solutions you offered below just show the mild changes you can do to the government. Besides that, the governments in Civ are pretty generic. That's why government mods are made. Whether you use it or not, that's just up to you. We all have a choice, you know 
ComradeRed
Civilized Expansionist
if you read...... the government types are very specific. And marxist communism would NOT allow such troop deployment or use forced labor. Plus you have assimilation changes, and then the wonders make it even more sensible.
ruprecht
Chieftain
I'll defer to your knowledge of the gameplay, you clearly know more about the innerworkings of the game if you can edit it and make the changes you've discussed here. And this is after all a board about mods.
Perhaps a new government called Democratic Colonial that allows reduced curruption in foreign areas and a mini-wonder called Viceroy that allows even further reduced curruption. This way the farflong British and French Empires could be created.
Perhaps a new government called Democratic Colonial that allows reduced curruption in foreign areas and a mini-wonder called Viceroy that allows even further reduced curruption. This way the farflong British and French Empires could be created.
American Zealot
Chieftain
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2001
- Messages
- 7
I would like to just say something to EVERBODY that makes government mods. When you create a fundamentalism government, do not base it only on the Taliban. Thats is just as foolish as basing the monarchy in the game on the English monarchy. When making governments consider ALL cultures that have used that government. While it may seem that the Taliban have failed as a government, the Byzantine Empire lasted for over a thousand years, even though they commited crimes against the Jews that are as bad as what the Nazis did! Also consider the Aztec fundamentalism.
I would also like to note, that you shouldn't create a government for every rl country, that would make the game far more tedious to play. Instead you should make generalizations, and try to include the traits that appear most often in that kind of government. Don't make a government called Religous Fascim just because thats the easiest way to state the Montezuma ruled the Aztecs, it gets confusing fast
One other note, just for historical accuracy, all modders should go into their files and change the city of Byzantium to the city of Constinople, and make Byzantium a Greek city. This only makes sense bacause originally Constinople was Byzantium, until the Romans moved in and created a city of their own. Today the city is called Istanbul, for the curious.
I would also like to note, that you shouldn't create a government for every rl country, that would make the game far more tedious to play. Instead you should make generalizations, and try to include the traits that appear most often in that kind of government. Don't make a government called Religous Fascim just because thats the easiest way to state the Montezuma ruled the Aztecs, it gets confusing fast
One other note, just for historical accuracy, all modders should go into their files and change the city of Byzantium to the city of Constinople, and make Byzantium a Greek city. This only makes sense bacause originally Constinople was Byzantium, until the Romans moved in and created a city of their own. Today the city is called Istanbul, for the curious.
Wolfshanze
CFC Historian
I wish people would bother to crack open a dictionary just once.
There is no such thing as a "Fundamentalist" form of government. It doesn't exist, never has, never will.
Furthermore, Fundamentalism, is more often a Christian term, not a Muslim one.
Finally, if you insist on using "religous" governments, please, FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS HOLY... use the CORRECT term:
THEOCRACY
There is no such thing as a "Fundamentalist" form of government. It doesn't exist, never has, never will.
Furthermore, Fundamentalism, is more often a Christian term, not a Muslim one.
Finally, if you insist on using "religous" governments, please, FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS HOLY... use the CORRECT term:
THEOCRACY
Armman Hammer
Chieftain
Ok... On this Wonder that started this all. I've got a couple ideas that could make it more worth while to keep.
1> Name change. National Purification or something like that could work. I'm not certain yet what the change could go to.
2> Make the wonder available only in certain governments. If you're a Democracy or Depotism form of government, there'd be no use for that wonder in your possession.
3> Suggested alterations within the Wonder :
- All Unhappy citizens are made content in all cities.
- Half the Happy citizens are made content in all cities.
- Allows for a greatly-increased production in all cities.
- Eliminates all military, alliances and Right-of-passage and trade agreements.
- Greatly lowers the attitude of Foreign Nations [Like anyone who's annoyed or worse could declare war on you]
These suggestions could make for a potentially powerful military system...... but basically, it's you against the world if you do this.
1> Name change. National Purification or something like that could work. I'm not certain yet what the change could go to.
2> Make the wonder available only in certain governments. If you're a Democracy or Depotism form of government, there'd be no use for that wonder in your possession.
3> Suggested alterations within the Wonder :
- All Unhappy citizens are made content in all cities. - Half the Happy citizens are made content in all cities. - Allows for a greatly-increased production in all cities. - Eliminates all military, alliances and Right-of-passage and trade agreements. - Greatly lowers the attitude of Foreign Nations [Like anyone who's annoyed or worse could declare war on you]These suggestions could make for a potentially powerful military system...... but basically, it's you against the world if you do this.
mercurycrusader
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Messages
- 10
THANK YOU! I'm probably the first, if not probably the third or fourth, to actually call it "Theocracy" rather than "Fundamentalism". When I made my "Governments Patch" (WARNING: Don't download! It sucks and needs work BADLY!), I took the liberty to actually call it "THEOCRACY"! But, I digress on this little adventure into "Fundamentalism vs. Theocracy". This little quote just caught my eye. Now for the rest of this thread...
Now for the actual patch:
The governments are okay, but I feel that the game offers little to actually diversify so many forms. I learned that the hard way when I tried to fit both Communism and Socialism in my "Governments Patch" (WARNING... Ah, you read it above earlier), so the only real generic governments you can add would be Fascism and Theocracy (or Fundamentalism, if you wanna whine about what it is or isn't). The new resources are good. However, as it was said earlier, "opium" might be a better seletion compared to "Mary Jane". It's been in longer use. Heh...
Summary
* Capitalism fits well with natural instincts. (arguement)
* A class system has been needed for all to benefit since the ancient times. (arguement)
* Socialism/Communism/Marxism will never work unless man can evolve past the concept of wealth and power. (arguement)
* Opium over "wacky tabacy". (suggestion)
* THEOCRACY! Get it right, everyone! (opinion)
Well said, Comrade! Well, I hope the debate ends there and we can continue discuss the mod to make it better rather than political discussions that just keeps on going in flaming successions...
Oh yeah, and excuse my stupidity, but I've been hearing about this left wing and right wing thing.. What's this thing about? I always hear people talk about it, but I never really understood. If you think this might start more endless political discussions, then feel free to message me instead, if you're willing
Oh yeah, and excuse my stupidity, but I've been hearing about this left wing and right wing thing.. What's this thing about? I always hear people talk about it, but I never really understood. If you think this might start more endless political discussions, then feel free to message me instead, if you're willing
ComradeRed
Civilized Expansionist
I don't think this will start any more debate.
Well, to try and give you an idea, I'll make a scale.
LEFT | Communism > Socialism > Social Democracy > Capitalism > Corporatism > Fascism/Monarchy | RIGHT
Hopefully that'll clear things up some, if you get the idea of the ideologies.
Well, to try and give you an idea, I'll make a scale.
LEFT | Communism > Socialism > Social Democracy > Capitalism > Corporatism > Fascism/Monarchy | RIGHT
Hopefully that'll clear things up some, if you get the idea of the ideologies.
Hey.
I'm not getting involved in an argument of politics here (though I am a Trot) -- I just have an idea for a 'penalty' for Fascism in the game, that I don't know if anyone else has said. I haven't read more than a few posts in this threat.
Anyway, with Fascism, howabout, every turn, twenty-percent of the cities in the civ, besides the capital city, have a 1/2 chance of going into civil disorder? It wouldn't be the same cities everytime -- just, alternatingly.
Also -- I don't know if this happens in Civ3, I think it happens in CTP -- but, also, the risk of revolution (one city of yours turning 'barbarian') has a 1/20 chance for happening to any of your cities every turn?
Just saying one thing, though -- the Civ game handles the whole ideas of governments pretty..weird. I mean, some people here say they're Marxists, they ought to know that the whole thing about new technology and governments coming around just because of abstract 'scientific achievement' is totally wrong.
I don't have a good enough understanding of the complexities of the Civ3 gameplay to give a real suggestion, but maybe that line of thinking will lead to some interesting setup for advances, wonders, governments, etc.
My only idea is that, in order to be ABLE to produce certain new things, you have to switch governments, and build up the city improvements that they would need (ie, despotism = none needed, monarchy = serf village, republic = slave-trade (if it's based on the Greeks/Romans, it's got to be slaves),), etc., which all have higher and higher production costs, and require an increasingly large chunk of gold to maintain. I think, with a few tweaks in 'corruption' and much higher demands for happiness(easy to keep okay at low populations, very hard in bigger cities), Democracy could be changed to 'Capitalism'. Communism could be called 'Proletarian Bonapartism' (which is what Stalin, Castro, Mao, etc were), higher corruption in funds but almost none in production, no happy citizens (but content ones and whatever sad ones would be normally), but culture stops wherever it's at. And Fascism could get built-in too, since I did give my great idea.
I think there should be big, big economic and production requirements for it, but there should be a 'Marxist' government that one can reach by the middle of the end of the modern age. It could be a 'wonder', maybe, since it would make no sense for one 'Marxist' civ to war or compete with another one. You could call it, 'Classical Communism' -- that is, communism as it's been theorized, but not reached -- a society of super-abundance. Basically, enough boost in happiness where there will never be disorder, giant production boost, giant trade and science increase, culture gains hugely (basically, putting more and more of the enemies cities in danger of switching to your side), big defense boosts for cities. But, of course, there have to be negatives -- this is a game. I think there should be a longer period of 'anarchy' before the government comes into effect, with a chance of up to twenty percent of the civ's cities going 'barbarian' (counter-revolution) at the change. Also, the costs for the wonder/government would be so high, that it might put a civ at a bit of a disadvantage while it's having to concentrate so much on building it up.
I'm sure that that all needs a lot of tweaks, but maybe it gives a little direction for a new setup? I definately don't think that the point should be to 'make as many governments as possible'. I honestly think that can muddle-up strategy, along with the historical importance and possibilities of each advance. On that last note, I don't think that Fascism or Communism should be one of those that I said that you have to 'go to' if you want to move on. They would just offer benefits that, depending on your style of play, you might dig. Capitalism = big funds and increasing happiness troubles, Fascism = military bonuses but big disorder problems, Communism = production bonuses but hard on funds (hard to keep it going for a long time). The industrial age gives you some branching choices in that way.
Anyway, whatever you think about governments, everything I said was about ideas for a mod, so making an argument wouldn't make any sense for anyone.
Thanks for reading.
I don't know how to program a mod, but if anyone's interested (ComradeRed?) in getting together to think it out some and they /do/ have the skills to make it, I'd really like talking on it.
Seeya.
----
just a new thought, popped into my head a little after I'd typed out this first message. First off, w/ Fascism, culture = as far as your cities resource borders. Basically, the entire world hates the culture, only way to expand is by military.
I know this all is pretty stripped-down from ComradeRed's original mod, which I haven't tried out yet (going to right now! ), but I admit it needs tweaking. Just don't think things need to be taken overboard if a mod gets focused on what exactly needs tweaking done. But thanks to CR for getting it made up, putting all the work in, great ideas, great direction -- trying it out now.
I'm not getting involved in an argument of politics here (though I am a Trot) -- I just have an idea for a 'penalty' for Fascism in the game, that I don't know if anyone else has said. I haven't read more than a few posts in this threat.
Anyway, with Fascism, howabout, every turn, twenty-percent of the cities in the civ, besides the capital city, have a 1/2 chance of going into civil disorder? It wouldn't be the same cities everytime -- just, alternatingly.
Also -- I don't know if this happens in Civ3, I think it happens in CTP -- but, also, the risk of revolution (one city of yours turning 'barbarian') has a 1/20 chance for happening to any of your cities every turn?
Just saying one thing, though -- the Civ game handles the whole ideas of governments pretty..weird. I mean, some people here say they're Marxists, they ought to know that the whole thing about new technology and governments coming around just because of abstract 'scientific achievement' is totally wrong.
I don't have a good enough understanding of the complexities of the Civ3 gameplay to give a real suggestion, but maybe that line of thinking will lead to some interesting setup for advances, wonders, governments, etc.
My only idea is that, in order to be ABLE to produce certain new things, you have to switch governments, and build up the city improvements that they would need (ie, despotism = none needed, monarchy = serf village, republic = slave-trade (if it's based on the Greeks/Romans, it's got to be slaves),), etc., which all have higher and higher production costs, and require an increasingly large chunk of gold to maintain. I think, with a few tweaks in 'corruption' and much higher demands for happiness(easy to keep okay at low populations, very hard in bigger cities), Democracy could be changed to 'Capitalism'. Communism could be called 'Proletarian Bonapartism' (which is what Stalin, Castro, Mao, etc were), higher corruption in funds but almost none in production, no happy citizens (but content ones and whatever sad ones would be normally), but culture stops wherever it's at. And Fascism could get built-in too, since I did give my great idea.
I think there should be big, big economic and production requirements for it, but there should be a 'Marxist' government that one can reach by the middle of the end of the modern age. It could be a 'wonder', maybe, since it would make no sense for one 'Marxist' civ to war or compete with another one. You could call it, 'Classical Communism' -- that is, communism as it's been theorized, but not reached -- a society of super-abundance. Basically, enough boost in happiness where there will never be disorder, giant production boost, giant trade and science increase, culture gains hugely (basically, putting more and more of the enemies cities in danger of switching to your side), big defense boosts for cities. But, of course, there have to be negatives -- this is a game. I think there should be a longer period of 'anarchy' before the government comes into effect, with a chance of up to twenty percent of the civ's cities going 'barbarian' (counter-revolution) at the change. Also, the costs for the wonder/government would be so high, that it might put a civ at a bit of a disadvantage while it's having to concentrate so much on building it up.
I'm sure that that all needs a lot of tweaks, but maybe it gives a little direction for a new setup? I definately don't think that the point should be to 'make as many governments as possible'. I honestly think that can muddle-up strategy, along with the historical importance and possibilities of each advance. On that last note, I don't think that Fascism or Communism should be one of those that I said that you have to 'go to' if you want to move on. They would just offer benefits that, depending on your style of play, you might dig. Capitalism = big funds and increasing happiness troubles, Fascism = military bonuses but big disorder problems, Communism = production bonuses but hard on funds (hard to keep it going for a long time). The industrial age gives you some branching choices in that way.
Anyway, whatever you think about governments, everything I said was about ideas for a mod, so making an argument wouldn't make any sense for anyone.
Thanks for reading.
I don't know how to program a mod, but if anyone's interested (ComradeRed?) in getting together to think it out some and they /do/ have the skills to make it, I'd really like talking on it.
Seeya.
----
just a new thought, popped into my head a little after I'd typed out this first message.
First off, w/ Fascism, culture = as far as your cities resource borders. Basically, the entire world hates the culture, only way to expand is by military.I know this all is pretty stripped-down from ComradeRed's original mod, which I haven't tried out yet (going to right now!
), but I admit it needs tweaking. Just don't think things need to be taken overboard if a mod gets focused on what exactly needs tweaking done. But thanks to CR for getting it made up, putting all the work in, great ideas, great direction -- trying it out now. ComradeRed
Civilized Expansionist
well, all I'm really going to say is that most of what you speak of isn't possible to do using the civ3edit tool. It would require hard coded programming in which I would need civ3's source code. You do have some interesting ideas, perhaps if you could go and check out the civ3 edit and then get back to me. That way I'll know that what you suggest can be done.
ruprecht
Chieftain
... As long as you continue to tar social democracy with all the crimes of communism, I feel equally entitled to tar the free market with the crimes of slavery, segregation, colonialism and genocide; piss me off and I'll add fascism and the Nazis. -Greg Erwin
Great quote. I have problems with it (sounds like he means socialism not social democracy) but its a great quote. Ahem, now on to the matter at hand. There was a question on the right and the left and Comrade gave the standard left-right line. I think a quarter system is more accurate as shown on this site.
Basically they list an Authoritarian/Liberatarian axis and a Left Right axis. This seperates Authoritarian Socialists (Stalin) far away from Liberatarian Socialists (Noam Chomsky) very nicely and removes Mr Erwin's worry of misrepresenting his beliefs.
Great quote. I have problems with it (sounds like he means socialism not social democracy) but its a great quote. Ahem, now on to the matter at hand. There was a question on the right and the left and Comrade gave the standard left-right line. I think a quarter system is more accurate as shown on this site.
Basically they list an Authoritarian/Liberatarian axis and a Left Right axis. This seperates Authoritarian Socialists (Stalin) far away from Liberatarian Socialists (Noam Chomsky) very nicely and removes Mr Erwin's worry of misrepresenting his beliefs.
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