Trolls!
- Thread starter Fenboy
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xienwolf
Deity
Never heard anyone mention trolls so far. Which incarnation are you thinking of? Lives under a Bridge? Regenerates, even from the dead, unless you use fire? Posts annoying junk on the Message Boards (we do have a few of those from time to time 
)?
I'm not sure that I really see a niche for them to fit into right at present, but I guess it would depend on precisely what design you have in mind for them.
As for pitching the idea to the Dev Team, they have already stated that the chances of a new leader are pretty slim, so I am thinking the chances of an entirely new Civ are nil. Plus there is the 3/7/21 symmetry they have going on, and it is already sitting at 21 Civs. However, you can probably garner support for a Mod-Mod to add them in as an option (see the Lizardman thread for ideas on how to start a semi-rabid fanbase).
)?I'm not sure that I really see a niche for them to fit into right at present, but I guess it would depend on precisely what design you have in mind for them.
As for pitching the idea to the Dev Team, they have already stated that the chances of a new leader are pretty slim, so I am thinking the chances of an entirely new Civ are nil. Plus there is the 3/7/21 symmetry they have going on, and it is already sitting at 21 Civs. However, you can probably garner support for a Mod-Mod to add them in as an option (see the Lizardman thread for ideas on how to start a semi-rabid fanbase).
I was thinking about the Kuriotates, how their multiracial society has currently got just 3 members (and that's if you count Lamias), and how perhaps ogre-sized trolls (or some sort of giant) could replace the War Elephant for them. Trolls are just about the only major fantasy people not in FFH that don't violate the princess rule
Mewtarthio
Emperor
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I was thinking about the Kuriotates, how their multiracial society has currently got just 3 members (and that's if you count Lamias), and how perhaps ogre-sized trolls (or some sort of giant) could replace the War Elephant for them. Trolls are just about the only major fantasy people not in FFH that don't violate the princess rule
Technically, they've got five: Humans, lamias, centaurs, either elves or dwarves (depending on religion), and dragons.
I agree, though, that they could state to be more racially diverse.
Rex rgis of Ter
Me I'm a Creator
I do wish the Kuriorates had nymph recon lines, and Trolls for their late mounted branch. However, are Trolls not generally evil? If anything they would fit with the Clan.
xienwolf
Deity
Well, Clan already have Ogres for their Mounted units. Besides, thinking Trolls are Evil is just another sign of oppression by "The Man," and explains why only the Kuriotates will employ them as honest citizens
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
I don't like the idea of Trolls for the Kuriotates, but I wouldn't mind seeing nymphs for recon units and Dryads for Druids.
Nikis-Knight
Deity
Trolls won't be availible until construction, when you can build bridges for them to hide under.
thomas.berubeg
Wandering the World
Trolls aren't always evil in fantasy (or too stupid, for that matter.) the Jotuns of Norse mythology aren't stupid, and theough they fight against the gods, they sometimes interact and intermarry, and party together.
And for Kurio war elephants, we could have a more intelligent breed of Giants. Not all giants are stupid hill giants. (think narnia: stupid giants, and then the "gentle" giants of Harafng)
And for Kurio war elephants, we could have a more intelligent breed of Giants. Not all giants are stupid hill giants. (think narnia: stupid giants, and then the "gentle" giants of Harafng)
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
Smaller trolls are usually depicted as very cunning.
Giants as Kurio war elephant UUs could be nice, but I'd imagine the more intelligent "gentle giants" wouldn't use the hill giant model. A more human like model would probably be better.
Giants as Kurio war elephant UUs could be nice, but I'd imagine the more intelligent "gentle giants" wouldn't use the hill giant model. A more human like model would probably be better.
xienwolf
Deity
Not sure about giving them Giants as their War Elephant Replacement. You would expect a Giant to be able to bombard, just like a Hill Giant can. And granting Bombardment to a War Elephant replacement seems a little bit too much of an improvement.
But then again, it could be balanced out by not being able to withdraw, and giving War Elephant's Collateral Damage capability (don't know why they don't have any as it is).
But then again, it could be balanced out by not being able to withdraw, and giving War Elephant's Collateral Damage capability (don't know why they don't have any as it is).
Shatner
Warlord
Fall from Heaven is thematically based on a long running Dungeons and Dragons game that Kael ran. Within canonical DnD, trolls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troll.htm) are giants (9ft tall and 500lbs according to the Monster Manual) who are always hungry, aggressive and reckless in combat because they regenerate from all wounds not caused by fire or acid (or starvation or asphyxiation, but those rarely come up). Decapitation, falling off a 500ft cliff, being dismembered and so on are only temporary annoyances for a DnD troll. They are only as intelligent as griffons, elementals or hell hounds (intelligence 6 versus the average human intelligence of 10 or the animal intelligence of 2).
Rigidly translating that into FFH terms, Trolls should probably heal fully between combats (since each turn representing at least a day, if not longer, and a troll heals completely in 78 seconds) and automatically flee from any lost combat (like Loki) where the opponent doesn't have 1 or more points of Fire Strength. Less rigidly (with more care for game balance) a troll should start with March, an innately higher health recovery rate, no ability to use weapons since trolls are all about rending with their claws, and possibly starting with the shock promotion to represent their insanely high damage output in melee (outstripping that of any other Giant (stone, cloud, fire or hill) or an adult dragon of any variety).
Normally I'd make the troll a barbarian like the Hill Giants but if I had to place them in the tech tree of some faction I'd make them the Immortal for Clan of Embers as this helps convey their nigh-unkillable physiology. It'd be a bit weird for a high level orc unit to upgrade to a troll unless you write in some sort of transformative ritual in the flavor text. That and having a unit that fears fire working for the Clan seems a little odd. Still, Eberus is not Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms or Eberon (the "normal" settings for DnD) so if Kael or Nikis-Knight say Trolls are different in this world then the Monster Manual can be ignored completely.
Rigidly translating that into FFH terms, Trolls should probably heal fully between combats (since each turn representing at least a day, if not longer, and a troll heals completely in 78 seconds) and automatically flee from any lost combat (like Loki) where the opponent doesn't have 1 or more points of Fire Strength. Less rigidly (with more care for game balance) a troll should start with March, an innately higher health recovery rate, no ability to use weapons since trolls are all about rending with their claws, and possibly starting with the shock promotion to represent their insanely high damage output in melee (outstripping that of any other Giant (stone, cloud, fire or hill) or an adult dragon of any variety).
Normally I'd make the troll a barbarian like the Hill Giants but if I had to place them in the tech tree of some faction I'd make them the Immortal for Clan of Embers as this helps convey their nigh-unkillable physiology. It'd be a bit weird for a high level orc unit to upgrade to a troll unless you write in some sort of transformative ritual in the flavor text. That and having a unit that fears fire working for the Clan seems a little odd. Still, Eberus is not Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms or Eberon (the "normal" settings for DnD) so if Kael or Nikis-Knight say Trolls are different in this world then the Monster Manual can be ignored completely.
Not even close. Assuming each hit with every attack, a troll does 1 less point of damage than a stone giant on average. But the giant has 1) a better attack bonus and 2) Power Attack. A hill giant also has a better attack bonus and Power Attack, so it will also deal more damage on average than a troll (especially when you remove the assumption that each will always get a full attack and hit with all attacks).
Given the game is called Dungeons & Dragons, I doubt I have to go into how much damage an adult dragon can do, in melee, without spells or breath weapon, even amongst the weaker types (such as black and white). Suffice to say, trolls are not in the same league.
Shatner
Warlord
Alright, I will confess to hyperbole. An adult, gold dragon using just a full attack (bite, two claws, two wing attacks and a tail slap) does an average of 84 damage (20, 12 each, 9.5 each and 23 damage respectively). With breath weapon it gets ridiculous and the comparison becomes even more tenuous. My bad.
A Stone Giant gets two attacks with a great club for 2d8 + 12, resulting in 42 damage on average (not including power attack). A troll (two claws, a bite and rending) does 35.5 damage on average (9.5 each, 6.5 and 16 damage respectively), putting it behind slightly and you are right that a Stone Giant can power attack and still be more likely to hit.
What distinguishes a troll is not it's overall damage potential when compared to every other monster in the MM. What distinguishes a troll is the fact that it's a CR 5 monster with 6 hit-dice which can do 35.5 damage on average. A stone giant is a CR 8 with 14 hit dice (and as such 8 levels more hit points, base attack bonus and feats). If scaled the troll is more lethal per CR and the troll is basically the most efficient close-range killing machine in a Deadliness to Hit-Dice ratio. That's why it'd start with shock.
A Stone Giant gets two attacks with a great club for 2d8 + 12, resulting in 42 damage on average (not including power attack). A troll (two claws, a bite and rending) does 35.5 damage on average (9.5 each, 6.5 and 16 damage respectively), putting it behind slightly and you are right that a Stone Giant can power attack and still be more likely to hit.
What distinguishes a troll is not it's overall damage potential when compared to every other monster in the MM. What distinguishes a troll is the fact that it's a CR 5 monster with 6 hit-dice which can do 35.5 damage on average. A stone giant is a CR 8 with 14 hit dice (and as such 8 levels more hit points, base attack bonus and feats). If scaled the troll is more lethal per CR and the troll is basically the most efficient close-range killing machine in a Deadliness to Hit-Dice ratio. That's why it'd start with shock.
Technically, they've got five: Humans, lamias, centaurs, either elves or dwarves (depending on religion), and dragons.
I agree, though, that they could state to be more racially diverse.
Make that dragon (singular)
I definitely agree with the idea to let them start with the March promotion, but as for putting trolls in the Clan, well CoE already have goblins, lizardmen and ogres as well as orcs, I wouldn't want to make them more multiracial than the Kurios plus they kind of tread on the ogres' toes in CoE, it starts to seem a little too much like Eberron's Droaam (let's put all the 'monster races' in one country for organisational purposes) 
Xienwolf definitely explains better than me why I thought they would go with the Kuriotates, I was particularly thinking of this paragraph from the civilopedia:
"For the Kuriotates don't much care who you as long as you have something meaningful to offer to the nation as a whole. The Kuriotates' particularly positive relationship to the non-human species of Erebus dates back to the very beginnings of the confederation, when a small group of Centaurs aided Cardith Lorda in his rise to power. Other creatures, attracted by the special power they detect in the boy king, have since flocked to the Kuriotate banner, escaping marginalization or even persecution in other parts of the world."
plus they kind of tread on the ogres' toes in CoE, it starts to seem a little too much like Eberron's Droaam (let's put all the 'monster races' in one country for organisational purposes) Xienwolf definitely explains better than me why I thought they would go with the Kuriotates, I was particularly thinking of this paragraph from the civilopedia:
"For the Kuriotates don't much care who you as long as you have something meaningful to offer to the nation as a whole. The Kuriotates' particularly positive relationship to the non-human species of Erebus dates back to the very beginnings of the confederation, when a small group of Centaurs aided Cardith Lorda in his rise to power. Other creatures, attracted by the special power they detect in the boy king, have since flocked to the Kuriotate banner, escaping marginalization or even persecution in other parts of the world."
Just FYI - there is a reference to trolls in the pedia text for the Svartalfar hero Alazkan-
"They moved slowly through the forest. A small punitive expedition, intent on burning a few trees, raping a few Svartalfar women, skinning a handful of trolls."
Probably not much help in the context of this discussion, but it's nice to know they are there somewhere.
"They moved slowly through the forest. A small punitive expedition, intent on burning a few trees, raping a few Svartalfar women, skinning a handful of trolls."
Probably not much help in the context of this discussion, but it's nice to know they are there somewhere.
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