Truly Scrumptious - Food in History?

Pangur Bán

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Anyone with an extended knowledge of history (meaning knowledge of several periods in several regions of the world), or anyone with an interest in things anthropological will be aware that food habits can vary drastically between different cultures. In this thread, I am genuinely seeking answers that explain what are sometimes extraordinary variations. I've been prompted to do this because of my recent experience reading Bernal Diaz and the results of pursuing my subsequent curiosity. I will pose some questions, but I very much hope that others will post other perplexing questions of variations in addition to answer these questions. ;)

Here are some, based to a large degree on ideas from this webpage:

http://anthro.fullerton.edu/sjohnson/anth315/Lecture 9 Outline.htm

It might help if you take a look at this page :)

PORK

Why did middle eastern societies ban pork. On the surface, religion is the explanation; however, christian societies in Europe did not follow in their wake. They didn't follow this Jewish practice; but, interestingly, Moslems did. Why?

CATTLE

Even though, according to that website, "examination of earliest Hindu sacred texts reveals that cows and bulls were eaten at ceremonies", cows have become sacred since. Is there an explanation for this strange change in culture?

PETS

Westerners do not, as a rule, eat their pets. But Far Eastern societies often do. The Aztecs actually bred small dogs for food, although I doubt that they would have considered these dogs as pets. What's the reason for divergence here. Are westerners simply a more pet-orientated people?

INSECTS

Why do Europeans not eat insects? Insects are healthier and safer than most sources of energy available to humans. It is perplexing that westerners have such a revulsion to insects in general, but many other societies do not. Why?

CANNIBALISM

In almost the whole area that we might call "Old World Civilization", cannibalism is a taboo and was not, and is not p[ractised, except in extreme circumstances, such as sieges. However, in the Americas, cannibalism was part of their culture. There can be few things as repulsive to the modern westerner as Aztec sacrificial practices.

The following is a quote from the above website:

Domesticated animals

• In many places large herbivores, such as cattle in Asia and Africa, were domesticated
• In Mesoamerica most large herbivores became extinct before large settlements in fertile valleys led to grain domestication
• In South America camelids such as llama and alpaca were domesticated as well as guinea pigs
• In Mesoamerica chihuahua and turkey were bred for animal protein and fat
• These were not efficient solutions
• Harner argues that the very high population density in the Valley of Mexico led the Aztecs to consider another source of animal protein and fat: each other

How many sacrifices?

• Estimates range widely
• Best estimate is 250,000 people per year in central Mexico from a population of 25 million
• If this is accurate, one percent of the population was consumed every year :eek:

Preparation of sacrifices
• Aztecs consumed most of their sacrifices
• Main aim of much of Aztec warfare was to capture sacrifices
• Captives were kept in wooden cages while being fattened up

Nutritional balance
• Consumption of sacrifices added fat and protein to the diet of Aztec commoners
• Commoner rarely had access to animal products except snakes, worms, and “stone dung” (lake algae)
• Diet largely consisted of maize and beans
• While maize and beans can supply all eight necessary amino acids, to ensure an adequate supply they must be eaten in very large quantities
• Because crop failures were common, it is unlikely that commoners had access to sufficient quantities of maize and beans on a regular basis

Who ate the sacrifices?
• The Aztec elite had a far better diet full of wild game, some imported from great distances
• The elite reserved the consumption of human meat for itself
• Commoners could get privilege of human meat consumption by capturing sacrifices
• This was great incentive for commoners to participate in frequent warfare

Cannibal empire?
• Aztecs did not stay in conquered territory and become political administrators
• Once a population had become defeated, large numbers of captives and others were sent to Aztec cities to be sacrificed
• After these people were sacrificed, Aztecs withdrew from area
• Harner argues this was there way of utilizing surrounding populations like a stockyard
Materialist perspective
• From the materialist perspective Aztec cannibalism is not about religion, symbol, or blood thirst
• Rather, Aztec cannibalism is an unusual response to unusual survival challenges

So, do you agree with this guy Harner? Perhaps you could read this interesting article and then decide ;)


I have to admit that I find that argument totally absurd. People do not know what minerals, etc, their food contains. I can't see how this explanation could work in practise. I think that cannibalism is natural, but that in Old World civilizations, the practice was inconsistent with the other moral values that were necessitated by the social pressures of large societies. Why were Mesoamericans different then? Well, I'd suggest that Mesoamerica was not as large a political cauldron as the Old World. The former were subject to virtually no consistent external pressures, and, the societies of Mesoamerica had very few neighbours as a rule. This makes Mesoamerican society quite, quite distinctive from the Old World!
 
Originally posted by calgacus


PORK

Why did middle eastern societies ban pork. On the surface, religion is the explanation; however, christian societies in Europe did not follow in their wake. They didn't follow this Jewish practice; but, interestingly, Moslems did. Why?

I would say:
a) pork is full of potentially dangerous organisms that can cause diseases. It is also a meat that is difficult to conserve, especially in a climate like that of the Middle East.

b) hygienic reasons. Pigs are dirty animals and maybe the europeans of the middle ages didn't care so much about that.

Just 2 cents.
 
Originally posted by MCdread


I would say:
a) pork is full of potentially dangerous organisms that can cause diseases. It is also a meat that is difficult to conserve, especially in a climate like that of the Middle East.

b) hygienic reasons. Pigs are dirty animals and maybe the europeans of the middle ages didn't care so much about that.

Just 2 cents.

Part a) is probably true (since we weren't there, we can't be sure ;) ). Pigs did and still do have a high probability of containing vicious diseases; much more so than beef or poultry. Religions like Judaism stretch back to the very beginning of communal living (even if you don't follow the Genesis timeline). At such early times, survival of every member the population was crucial to the population of that village/tribe. They realized the cause and effect between eating pork/getting sick/dying, and attempted to rectify the situation by making such meat forbidden, thus eliminating a source of danger, and increasing the likelihood of survival of the mini-civ.
 
On pork - maybe the Europeans discovered the gift of god we call bacon and the middle easterners never did. Or pork chops. Or spiral cut ham. Mmmmm...pork...(homer simpson noise)

Cattle - I think Hindus just wanted to be different. The punk-rockers of religion.

Pets - I don't think anyone would eat a beloved pet unless they were in dire straits, regardless of their culture. Asians probably ate/eat dogs out of necessity. Not eating animals seen as pets probably comes from the actual taste of dog or cat meat, as I would have no compunction about eating someone's pet cow.

Insects - Yes, they may be healthy and full of vitamins, but the energy expenditures required to catch enough bugs to subsist off of would make it impractical. I wasn't aware that any culture really views insects as a viable food source. Also, evolution probably tought us that eating any and all bugs was at best an unappealing venture, and at worst, a deadly one.

Cannibalism - Cannibalism is surprisingly rare in the animal kingdom, especially among mammals. I think humans as mammals have a natural revulsion to it, and the people that do practice it have had it ingrained in their culture over the course of many centuries.
 
CATTLE

Even though, according to that website, "examination of earliest Hindu sacred texts reveals that cows and bulls were eaten at ceremonies", cows have become sacred since. Is there an explanation for this strange change in culture?

My personal theory, being born a Hindu, is that when an animal has more than one use than just meat, they maybe taken out of the food chain. Cattle may have been more important to use as draft animals and as dairy animals that is not worth killing a cow. It does have some holes but i figure that the cost-benefit of killing cows did not provide as big a benefit than keeping them alive.
 
Punkymonkey has a good point - but the again, oxen and cattle were invaluable draft animals for any early culture that used them. I don't imagine Europeans ate much beef at all until the Industrial age.

Maybe they just made them sacred as well? Maybe there really is no reason.
 
Good point but India is in a location that offers many different animals for domestication so they may have just concentrated on the other smaller animals like chickens, goat, sheep and pigs
 
Originally posted by calgacus
{...} but I very much hope that others will post other perplexing questions of variations in addition to answer these questions. ;)

Here are some, based to a large degree on ideas from this webpage:

http://anthro.fullerton.edu/sjohnson/anth315/Lecture 9 Outline.htm

It might help if you take a look at this page :)

PORK

Why did middle eastern societies ban pork. On the surface, religion is the explanation; however, christian societies in Europe did not follow in their wake. They didn't follow this Jewish practice; but, interestingly, Moslems did. Why?


In a word, trichanosis (sp?). Pigs can carry a parasite (the trichana worm) that will infest a human that eats pork that is not cooked well done (in the days when pigs were raised in the barnyard, rather than the industrial type feedlots nowadays). A bad enough infestation would render limbs useless (the worm likes to live in muscle). As WildWovorine pointed, out people would have fingured out the connection, and would have put a ban on pork into their religion.

Originally posted by calgacus

PETS

Westerners do not, as a rule, eat their pets. But Far Eastern societies often do. The Aztecs actually bred small dogs for food, although I doubt that they would have considered these dogs as pets. What's the reason for divergence here. Are westerners simply a more pet-orientated people?

INSECTS

Why do Europeans not eat insects? Insects are healthier and safer than most sources of energy available to humans. It is perplexing that westerners have such a revulsion to insects in general, but many other societies do not. Why?


This is speculation, but I suspect that it's becuase Europeans have access to large domestic meat animals such as a cattle and pigs that provide plenty of protien without the need to use dogs or insects (more bang for the buck, as it were). The Aztecs certainly did not have such a source available. The revulsion would come more from never having eaten those things (fear of the unknown) in the case of insects, and the emotional conflict of eating an animal which is considered "one of the family".

Originally posted by calgacus

CANNIBALISM

In almost the whole area that we might call "Old World Civilization", cannibalism is a taboo and was not, and is not p[ractised, except in extreme circumstances, such as sieges. However, in the Americas, cannibalism was part of their culture. There can be few things as repulsive to the modern westerner as Aztec sacrificial practices.

[/B]

Yes, but what about when Europe was at the cultural and technological level of the Mesoamericans (i.e. when human sacrifice was still practiced)? I suspect that one would see more pervasive cannibalism then.
 
Originally posted by Serutan



Yes, but what about when Europe was at the cultural and technological level of the Mesoamericans (i.e. when human sacrifice was still practiced)? I suspect that one would see more pervasive cannibalism then.

We have extensive records of the Celts and Germans, when they were much more backward than the Aztecs. They did not practice cannibalism. There isn't even a hint of it.

I don't think that "cultural level" will be the key to unlocking this. All cultural levels in the Americas, engaged in cannibalism (not all Amerinians I should clarify). There is no hint of it in early Roman, Greek, Celtic or Germanic history.
 
I'm sure the Romans would have written about and exagerrated accounts of cannibalism if there was any.
 
Mesoamericans practiced ritual sacrifice NOT cannablism. The only few cases of documented cannablism comes from the Pacific islands and it has to do with eating the dead not killing them and then eating them. However this practice was stopped this century when people started from dying from a disease called kuru, which is a neurological disease that causes seizures and muscle spasms caused by eating the dead flesh.
 
Originally posted by Punkymonkey
Mesoamericans practiced ritual sacrifice NOT cannablism. The only few cases of documented cannablism comes from the Pacific islands and it has to do with eating the dead not killing them and then eating them. However this practice was stopped this century when people started from dying from a disease called kuru, which is a neurological disease that causes seizures and muscle spasms caused by eating the dead flesh.

Cannibalism was actually part of Aztec ritual sacrifice! :rolleyes:
 
No it wasn't. the may drink the blood but thats not cannablism. They never ate the flesh which IS cannablism.
 
Originally posted by Punkymonkey
No it wasn't. the may drink the blood but thats not cannablism. They never ate the flesh which IS cannablism.

Yes they did. Reyes X2 ;)

They eat the arms and the legs!
 
well not cannabalism persay, but at least during the greek dark ages therewas a Sparatan area lycanthropy cult, which appears to have practiced human sacrifice

as far as religions go, its very clear in various tales that the consumption of human flesh is an extream no-no
 
Where did you read that Calgacus? I would like to read the book/article as well cause i always read that they just drank the blood. I may be wrong though so i'd like to know where you read. I'm not patronizing you either, i'm serious.
 
Why did middle eastern societies ban pork. On the surface, religion is the explanation; however, christian societies in Europe did not follow in their wake. They didn't follow this Jewish practice; but, interestingly, Moslems did. Why?

I think someone with agricultural education or a veterinarian could answer that question very precisly. But I am quite sure that the climate is the factor.

The rule is for desert-style climate surely very rational. As it completly meaningless for the European climate. Either the meat of the pig, the demands of the pig for keeping and feeding it, or the vulnerability of pigs to local bacterias made it dangerous for consumption in North-Africa and the Middle-East.

The above mentioned worm. Could it be, that this worm is way more common in southern then northern climate ? Or is pork-meat much harder to conserve in hotter climate then other meats ?

Oh, yeah, and then it's the hen and the egg problem. Little Jimmy got taught, that pig is a filthy animal. 30 years later, he's a medicine and tells clients -> Pork bad ! Discoveries and research (and mamma) taught us that!

It's like beer and wine. What would a wine drinking doctor prescribe ? A glass of wine the day or a glass of beer the day ?

Even though, according to that website, "examination of earliest Hindu sacred texts reveals that cows and bulls were eaten at ceremonies", cows have become sacred since. Is there an explanation for this strange change in culture?

I think to the holiness of the cow led the same rationale as to the unholiness of the pig. But the difference made the milk. Why ban an animal which may cause a problem because of it's meat, if the milk's still ok ?

I'm quite sure, they had some problem either with infections, which made the meat dangerous but let the milk still "good" or had to stop slaughter the cows, because milking a cow yields much more food then slaughering it. I have no idea, but what does yield more food in the end ? I guess it's milk, not meat from a cow.
 
Originally posted by Yago

It's like beer and wine. What would a wine drinking doctor prescribe ? A glass of wine the day or a glass of beer the day ?

A whole bottle hopefully. :D
 
My understanding is that no human society eats humans for food, that all cannibalistic societies do so for ritualistic reasons but look elsewhere for actual sustenance. Ingesting a human body had various magical properties associated with it.

I have read of some early socieities engaging in cannibalism, including smashing bones for the marrow, but evidence seems to indicate this was a measure of desperation - rather like crashing an airliner into the Andes and being forced to munch on fellow passengers for survival.

The taboo against eating fellow humans for food seems to still stand as universal.
 
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