[BTS] Trying for Deity/Immortal win

[Fippy]

Yep listen to Lymond there

Everything that's needed for one eye opening moment can be learned on turn 0 in this gems start.
All you need for Immortal games is showing some urgency in making up turns against AIs, that they are given at start by extra units and a couple bonuses thru the whole game.

In this example, SIP = terrible.
Still a decent city, but PH settle here changes everything.
You get your worker 2 turns earlier (1 lost by moving, 3 gained by extra city tile hammer), an extra hammer for the whole game, 2 more gems for your Bur cap (one jungled, but still great to have later ofc), and another corn.

Those other tiles do not matter, cos at size 11 you can work 2x corn, 3x gems, 2x sugar cottages, 3x green river cottages and 1 plains river cottage.
So this city alone would make up for most bonuses AIs get.
No rush needed, no luck, no Immortals, no..

Getting this eye opener is something many players miss, and why it's so great being guided slowly here by helpful players like Lymo.
I made this bold cos yup slowly means waiting on turn 0, not settling hasty & getting so much feedback without having played any turns..!
If you want to improve, you do not need peoples looking over t100+ saves. You need to see concepts that are not visible to you currently, but will change everything once you do.

 

[Staler87]

I still don't get the move your settler thing. I couldn't see those resources before I settled so how was I supposed to know they were there? I've tried moving my settler before but it often doesn't get me anywhere better and loses me a turn. I've come to adopt the opinion that it is better to take the devil you know. Of course, I have never actually beaten the game on Immortal let alone deity so I'm probably wrong. After a quick game with Julius Ceaser where I competed but quit after it became obvious all I could do is compete and not win, I decided to go back to the leader that got me my first Emporer win. Here's my start with Elizabeth should I settle as is, re-roll (if it is a really tough start just tell me to re-roll I can't beat Immortal with a good start), or go somewhere else and why:

edit: If I didn't ask I would probably go down to the grassy plain in between those two forests so I could get the sheep and the two crabs by the first border expansion.

 

[Anysense]

I would probably prefer settling on PH but the hut... Anyway, move the warrior first.

 

[Fippy]

I still don't get the move your settler thing. I couldn't see those resources before I settled so how was I supposed to know they were there?

Your scout has not moved in this pic, and should have gone on the ph before settling
So yup, you can see those if you are doing stuff in the right order.

I would also suggest playing without huts cos i bet you thought about those instead.

 

[odin1981]

The best advice I could give you is settle to like 3-4 cities + built up your horses or metal units and look to take out the nearest 3-4 city that is hopefully not protective. I really don't care what leader you play you have to just accept that the deity ai's will outrex you. Use them as your "free settlers". You don't have to play a domination/conquest game but definately through the first 2k-3k years on marathon produce more units and less settlers.

Make sure you are actually versed in a hybrid economy also. If you aren't isolated start out aiming for 12-18 cities initially into 1 ad deity forays. You will eventually exceed even that but its a decent benchmark for marathon. Understand though any 18+ city opponent will be a pain in the ass if managed wrong diplo wise at least.

One thing that I know has been tried more in depth here but I like to settle on stone/ph and go for the GW after 1st settler. I play with huts/events/barbs on so if you can cordon off a part off a continent you are on with no worry of barbs they can settle cities for you to exp up troops to third promotion before you go to war with a ai opponent.

 

[Staler87]

Your scout has not moved in this pic, and should have gone on the ph before settling
So yup, you can see those if you are doing stuff in the right order.
I would also suggest playing without huts cos i bet you thought about those instead.

I probably could have found the gems but I'm not sure how I would have known about the sugar. Regardless I got most of it after two expansions. I screwed that game up though.

The first game I tried with Elizabeth failed miserably (the one I posted above). All the tiles around me were tundra and there were no good city locations close. I started another game here I'm going to try and ask for advice every step of the way this time. Thoughts on the start below? I already moved my warrior. Recommended first tech, where to move the settler?

 

[lymond]

I think you are missing the point, Staler. The sugars are irrelevant (although settling on the one you could see is an option). The point is moving your initial unit (warrior or scout) logically to reveal tiles to make the best decision in settling. Just seeing the corn from where the scout was position, I would have moved on the PH.

Settling on certain tiles give a bonus, like PHs give extra hammer, and sugar gives extra food. This speeds up your first worker and later stuff. So again this is about get more stuff sooner. Things like this speeds up your earlier progress which then snowballs later.

Looks like you moved your warrior already above, and that is something I would wait for advice on as well. But I think in this case the move was fine. In this case I think SIP is fine

 

[Staler87]

Okay, so I played a couple more turns. I got the wheel from a goodie hut and am researching farming first to get at the corn. I'm thinking I'll go for bronze working, followed by masonry (for the marble). If I discovered bronze somewhere accessible I'll skip archery but if I'm stuck with no bronze I'll have to go hunting then archery as my next two techs. Any thoughts on this plan? Am I doing it right? The current situation is below:

 

[Staler87]

I think you are missing the point, Staler. The sugars are irrelevant (although settling on the one you could see is an option). The point is moving your initial unit (warrior or scout) logically to reveal tiles to make the best decision in settling. Just seeing the corn from where the scout was position, I would have moved on the PH.

Settling on certain tiles give a bonus, like PHs give extra hammer, and sugar gives extra food. This speeds up your first worker and later stuff. So again this is about get more stuff sooner. Things like this speeds up your earlier progress which then snowballs later.

Looks like you moved your warrior already above, and that is something I would wait for advice on as well. But I think in this case the move was fine. In this case I think SIP is fine

I was missing the point. Thanks for clarifying as I was being pretty obtuse.

 

[elmurcis]

Nothing personal (and nothing is wrong with huts... or events..) but for forum game huts is not a good thing (just because it gives random outcome). There should be clear "predictable" tech situation (and path) for each situation. Worker turns timing is very important early and with "regular" (no "lucky hut") teching player can make some good plan how to use every worker turn (including 1 turn part-farming or roading on the way if worker don't lose extra turn same time). Outside forum game you can still play any other game you want paralel

 

[odin1981]

Nothing personal (and nothing is wrong with huts... or events..) but for forum game huts is not a good thing (just because it gives random outcome). There should be clear "predictable" tech situation (and path) for each situation. Worker turns timing is very important early and with "regular" (no "lucky hut") teching player can make some good plan how to use every worker turn (including 1 turn part-farming or roading on the way if worker don't lose extra turn same time). Outside forum game you can still play any other game you want paralel

You act as all tech pops are helpful. Sometimes depending on tech path they can screw you. However that being said at imm/deity level at best if you don't start with a scout you will hit like 3 huts tops. So maybe in a super fortunate game you pop 2 techs. But that is definately a outlier and not a normal boost.

 

[lymond]

BW definitely. Archery is a last resort and I avoid it at all costs. Sometimes you might have to on IMM/Deity, but try to start practicing good spawnbusting. Keep your first warrior zig-zagging the radius around London revealing all tiles and potential settles, then set him up in a good spawnbust position, ideal on a forest hill.

I can't remember if I mentioned here, but a single unit will spawnbust a 5X5 area from the tile he stands on. No barbs will spawn in that area.

If no copper, we might consider going AH next, but we can decide when we get there. POT my be good next.

Switch to slavery after BW, and lets look to 2pop a settler. Grow on warriors,ofc, after worker to size 4. Worker can put one chop into settler.

No thoughts on where to settle yet, although cow/ivory is an option.

post saves..if you post the start save, some may play along with you

 

[Staler87]

So I should go for pottery before masonry?
I'm not too familiar with the forum jargon so just to clarify what you're recommending:
After the worker grow the city to four population by building warriors then immediately build a settler by sacrificing two population and chopping down one forest. Can you clarify what ofc means. I thought there was a page with all the common abbreviations but when I went to it either the page doesn't exist or the link is broken (went from the war academy).

Saves posted as requested for each screenshot.

 

[lymond]

ofc = Of course..ha..of course

Not sure I see an urgency on masonry unless you were going to use it for something. Let's table that thought. Tech decision can be made after BW and more tiles revealed. It's all about playing the map.

 

[Staler87]

I was going to use it for the marble in my city borders. I'll play a few more turns, later on, today and then post back.

 

[lymond]

Oh sure ..I know...The point is do you really need it sooner that later. Just cause you see marble there does not necessarily mean you need to rush to masonry. It's a tech diversion. As you hit IMM and Deity (a lot more so), you have to make better and more focused tech decisions.

oh..and as other's have said, ideally huts and events off, but we will deal with it for now.

To clarify that further, you just popped The Wheel. Wheel is one of the more expensive early techs, and important. So yeah, it was a great get. However, it also gives you a false sense of timing which does not serve you well when learning.

 

[Staler87]

Well, I found copper right within my capitals borders so there is definitely no need for archery. I'm almost done pottery thinking of going masonry to mysticism to animal husbandry, to writing for my tech path. For my second city, I'm thinking of going by the gems, bananas, and silk. Seems like a good spot and would help block Boudicca. I could go for the copper and corn down in the bottom right though. Thoughts on the second city? Should I go for an early axe rush on the celts? they're really close, fairly weak, and I got early copper. Here are some picks:

 

[lymond]

Hey Staler...First, let me say it is good that you present your logic and planning for me. This allows not only discourse, but also to present the flaws in your logic. Resolving these things will put you well on your way to winning on higher levels.

So, before I go into that, let me explain the current problems presented in your screenies and the save:

1) You did not heed my advice for putting a chop into settler and then whipping as soon as you can..this delayed your first settler and second worker

2) worker management:
a) useless road on corn..BW was in well before finishing corn
b) FP farm is really really bad. That is 8 wasted worker turns to farm a tile that would be cottaged. 1 wasted worker turn is a lot, 8 wasted worker turns (actually 10 with the road) is devastating
c) mining copper is ok..it is a great tile, but you could have made a road to new city for insta-trade route...or chopped another forest to speed second worker, who could then mine copper

3) Your initial scouting is good, but your second warrior should not be sitting in London. He should be out spawnbusting..likely to the E or N somewhere. You don't need MP in cities early while they are small and you are whipping

So, to your logic. Gems, nanners is a bad first city and I want you to think about why that is based on previous discussions here (which I hope you go back and read from time to time so that you grasp the concepts)...let me know the answer

Masonry to Myst? Why?

AH? possibly, but there's only a cow present I see and you are safe with copper. On lower levels maybe, but as you move up you need to really focus your tech path. You can trade for AH later. I like writing next and probably Maths.

So, first city..there is an obvious place to settle here that is glaring at you right now..again, think about what we discussed before and let me know what you think.

Honestly, I would pull up an auto-save as far back as you can go and replay this as I advised.

note: the process above is trying to get you to think as opposed to just going through the motions. Much more attention to detail comes with moving up levels. Everything you do and every decision you make has purpose.

(your "staler" definition is incorrect )

 

[Staler87]

Just wondering what PH means? From what I know it's all about acids and bases but I feel that's not the definition being used here.

1) I didn't want to send my settler out un-escorted. Although I probably should have moved the second warrior to the potential spot I would use for settling.

2) Never really thought too much about it which is probably an issue. The road to corn just gets me extra health and I don't really need that at this point, the farm is a bit pointless especially considering I chose a financial leader and I need cottages. However, the road was put up before I got BW which means there really wasn't anything else to build.

3) What happens if barbarians walk into my borders and walk into London?

Masonry to get the stone, mysticism to whip out some monuments. AH is to get the cow, and potentially some horses.

As for the second city. The gems/bananas place will be bad as I can't remove jungles for awhile and therefore will not be able to work the things. I'm thinking the copper and corn. Gets me two solid early resources and probably denies an AI copper.

 

[Fippy]

Adding some stuff
Gold + Corn (in middle so no border pop needed, where scout stands) is very good for a 2nd city, in this situation even your only reasonable option.

Showing urgency for that spot is important on immortal already (we should just forget deity), if Boudi would be really fast she could grab that before you. Axes are not bad, but also not automatic anymore on Imm.
With Ivory, Jumbos later are usually a better option.

Oracle would be okay here, so myst & masonry then towards ph makes sense (i think Lymond probably forgot about that option, masonry just for marble would not be optimal and you actually need no monuments here for now) but you also can start looking at "speed up" bonuses now.
Myst gives a bonus for masonry, so should always be teched first if you want both. You can see that when hovering above techs on top.

For barbs, they never walk into cities before turn ~50 on immortal.
Keeping your warrior safe once you see copper makes sense thou, as you know you can get Axes and no need to risk those 15h which will be useful indeed as happy guard.