[BTS] Trying for Deity/Immortal win

[Staler87]

I can win on monarch but just can't seem to make the jump up to Immortal or Deity (except in civ 5 because Deity is a bit of a joke in civ 5). My most recent game (Immortal difficulty and normal speed) I went for an Immortal rush with Darius and quickly took out Greece (with Persia, the irony). I started on a four-man continent and my only other neighbour was Mansa Musa who quickly got ahead of me in tech. Rome was on the other side of the island. Initially, I was kind of able to keep up with Rome since I had gotten all of Greece's land but I fell behind.
Just have a couple questions:

-I try not to let my beakers fall below ~40% (I realise you should switch between 0 and 100% research I mean if you were putting it on full research). Should I completely ignore this and just let my economy totally crash. If I do this how do I get techs?

-After the initial rush, how am I supposed to take another opponent down? All of them get ahead of me tech wise. Even if beeline for musketmen they seem to have riflemen (I guess my only neighbour was leading the tech race.

-Should you expect to get a bit behind in score even towards mid-game? I didn't expect to be in the lead score-wise mid game but I was dead last in non-vassal score (admittedly not by too much).

-I had no forests in my start and very few in my vicinity. Should I have re-rolled?

-My cities are at very low population level compared to the other civs. My largest city is at 8 and some AI's have 21 pop cities. I didn't get a very food heavy start and built farms where I could but I'm wondering if there are any magic city grow super technics out there.

Thanks for answering my questions.

 

[lymond]

Requested move to S&T

-I try not to let my beakers fall below ~40% (I realise you should switch between 0 and 100% research I mean if you were putting it on full research). Should I completely ignore this and just let my economy totally crash. If I do this how do I get techs?.

The 0 - 100 phase (or binary research) is primarily for the early expansion phase up until you get a point of an established economy, beaker multipliers, specialists, and ability to obtain chunks of gold (Currency). At a certain point in the game, it becomes about keeping at 100% as much as possible, but sometimes you still have to run 0% to accumulate gold to fund the next tech. However, you will get a feel for making adjustments to the slider at the near finish of a tech. Regardless, always make sure you are looking for ways to get gold. Trade resources and renegotiate those trades when more GPT is available. Trade old tech for chunks of gold, or even check trade screen to see if AIs are teching newer techs you have and about how far. Better to trade tech for gold or other techs before they complete it. (edit: Great Merchant trade missions are also helpful, and the second best use of great people next to the Great Scientist bulb strategies)

"Economy Crash" is "relative". What you feel is a crashed economy may not be as bad as you think, and I often find this to be the case with less experienced players stating such. I can't really know what your case is unless I see an actual game and explanation of why that economy has crashed.

How do I get techs. Bottom line, as you move up levels you need to be more focused on your tech paths and tech decisions. You need to understand what AI priority techs are so that you don't duplicate so much teching that you otherwise could trade for. Also, I would assume you don't use great people and bulb strategies all that effectively or much at all. This is an important thing to learn.

-After the initial rush, how am I supposed to take another opponent down? All of them get ahead of me tech wise. Even if beeline for musketmen they seem to have riflemen (I guess my only neighbour was leading the tech race..

Muskets suck

The higher the level, the less effective early rushes are (depending on map), but certainly should be an option if viable targets are there. Usually with early rush you are sacrificing wider internal expansion for stealing land yourself. In some cases it is vital to expand early. In other cases, if you have viable land to get a 6 city empire, then tech to a viable mid-game combat unit like the popular Curaissers Curs are often the goto unit for highest level conquest.

-Should you expect to get a bit behind in score even towards mid-game? I didn't expect to be in the lead score-wise mid game but I was dead last in non-vassal score (admittedly not by too much)..

Score is irrelevant. Higher the level, the more likely you will be behind in score for a good part of the game. Doesn't matter. What matters is that you are human than that you can make better decisions and use what you do have better than the AI. Score will come eventually, but you should not be preoccupied with it.

Score is mainly derived of land and pop, and secondarily tech and wonders. This does not mean that the AI will use that land and pop better than you will.

-I had no forests in my start and very few in my vicinity. Should I have re-rolled?.

huh..we are getting to a point here where we are giving advice in a vacuum. Forests are very nice and useful for chops, but some starts have fewer than others. Just the way it is. Most important thing is fooooood..that usually determines whether I reroll.

-My cities are at very low population level compared to the other civs. My largest city is at 8 and some AI's have 21 pop cities. I didn't get a very food heavy start and built farms where I could but I'm wondering if there are any magic city grow super technics out there.

Again, we are entering a vacuum here with advice. I know not the date of your game to benchmark city size. I will say that there is nothing wrong we relatively smaller cities for a good part of the early game. Many cities will be abused with slavery anyway. Important thing is that after the initial expansion phase, you start tailoring your research hub. So letting your cap grow into a nice bureau cap with developing cottage, and run those scientists for an academy there. Other cities that might grow a bit are the GP farm. Later you may also grow to have more pop to whip out a big army fast, so pop can fluctuate dramatically. But generally, for much of the BCs..size 4 to 6 cities is very common. Although the hunt for happies is always good to increase happy cap, mainly for important cities like your cap

I will state that GROWTH is one of the most important things in the game. FOOD and GRANARIES are the shizzle here. The statement though is not synonymous with "large cities". (understanding what I mean here will change your game)

Lastly, for now, I don't know really what your experience level or overall gameplay stands now, but there is a lot to learn, and fun and challenge, moving up difficulty levels. Saying you can win on Monarch does not preclude you from having a lot of flaws in your game or simply missing out on a lot of tried and true strategies and tactic. Immortal is a good goal for now, but do note that Deity is a very big step up from IMM, much much more so than the move up from another level to another.. Yeah, Deity should certainly be a goal, but give that some time.

Anyway, we really need to see your games

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Moderator Action: Moved to Strategy & Tips as requested.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Staler87]

Thanks for replying. I understand that if I'm beating the game on monarch it doesn't mean that I'm playing an errorless game. If I thought I was playing an errorless game I wouldn't have posted here.

When you say see my game(s), do you mean screenshots or savefiles? Or both?

 

[lymond]

Both...pics draw folks in to actually look at the save ...like catnip

note: the Monarch comment was not a criticism, but rather just an observation. I say that just to give perspective. The point being that you likely have a lot to learn in order to achieve success at..say..the IMM level, and may need to adjust some preconceived notions and habits existing now. (Not that you can't start winning fairly soon on higher levels, with focus and learning here)

I can sort of "read between the lines" based on the questions you ask, so have some idea of where you are at, but I and others can't really know until we see your games.

Best way is to post a start and get advice from the beginning in short turnsets. I really like making this exercise a two-way street, where the player doesn't just take advice and duplicates, but really questions why. Argument and discourse is important IMO to the process.

Also, this game is so complex that there is not always a single correct way or approach, but there a certainly a lot of basic concepts one can grasp that can apply to most games to foster success.

 

[Staler87]

Some Screenshots and saves of two different games. Both are Immortal rushes. The AD-0001 and AD-1600 saves are the game I was describing. I tried some stupid stuff to get my tech up at the end. The AD-0475 is a more recent game, I don't know if I've messed this one up yet, but I'm not exactly sure where to go next. Researching Aesthetics to hopefully trade (and serve as a stepping stone for the GL). Some screenshots of games (first two are of the first game and second two are of the next game):

 

[lymond]

Don't have much time before I nod off here, but took a cursory glance at your recent game.

First off, you are playing Epic/Huge and something called Planet Generator, which is a non-standard map script. I can't help you much when you play with these settings. Epic/Mara IMO is not a good combo and definitely not a good thing for learning. The speed to size ratio is not very compatible, but worse is you are giving the AIs tremendous amount of land (Byz already at 17 cities which is absurd..he will rule this game and never stop expanding) to runaway with the game with..and they are doing just that to you. Of course, there are others reason too.

Normal settings and maps make for a perfectly long and satisfying game,and are more conducive to learning as well. Furthermore, quicker games mean more playing and more practice. In fact, finishing games isn't really a priority right now. You have a lot to learn and the early game should be the focus..practice that for now.

I few things to point out..and I know you did a immortal rush on Charlie I think regardless:

1) worker management..this needs to tighten up alot. Pretty much every cottage I see in your empire is loads of wasted worker turns...because these are not cottage cities.

2) Pers is not a bureau cap.its a nice production ..and I see you started moving your Palace. Problem is that that is not a bureau cap either. Closest thing I see with potential is that flood plain city down SE, but for now I'd not even bother moving Palace yet.

3) Don't not tech IW...what you should done much sooner than now is gone for a tech to trade with. Aesths is a good choice. Problem is, this should have been done much sooner. Your tech benchmark at this stage is not good and the AI is running away. Aesths at this point will net you little or nothing. You need to really focus that tech path as you move up levels. You can get away with a lot on lower levels. Understand AI priority techs.

4) not sure what the temples are for

Kudus for taking out Chuck on IMM, but there is a lot for you do here to learn

edit: why are you building a scout?

Bottom line is that as you move up levels you have to really start doing everything with "purpose" and start understanding the ramifications of teching bad techs, building useless things, and wasted worker turns. Attention to detail and better micro becomes essential.

 

[Snowbird]

After the initial rush, how am I supposed to take another opponent down.

First off, you are playing Epic/Huge and something called Planet Generator, which is a non-standard map script.

I don't think it is good idea always do an early rush on Huge (well, maybe on Deity Marathon - since AI's can supply enough cities for constant influx of conquest money). Most of time that will leave couple AI with way too much land. I would say some blocking and later war (HA or cats) would be better.

On immortal with enough land (not sure what it would be on planet generator --- my memory serves it as rather strangish map gen) you can outtech AI's rather easily late in game (post lib probably). On Huge I would probably look more for civ improving stuff (mids for representation, statue of liberty, etc -- instead of NE, bureau cap, etc --- not to say that latter does not matter at all).

 

[Staler87]

I will stop using planet generator, although it usually produces normal maps in my experience. I never thought about the large map thing but I guess it makes sense. I just like all the civs, it makes the game more chatoic and interesting.

1) Point taken. I never really do think about workers much beyond improving resources first and getting roads up.

2) This comes at the risk of sounding really stupid but don't you just want the capital in a central location to reduce maintenance costs?

3) I just find ironworking pretty important. I generally tech things that are either important/useful or good trading material. If it is really easy to trade for then I will definitely stop researching it.

4) I ran out of building's to build and didn't want to build a unit as they cost maintenance (trying to build the economy back up).

5) I didn't want to build units (in a bit of economic trouble) so I just built scouts and deleted them to get overflow production if I ever did want to build something.

I find normal makes games go by very quickly and marathon is kinda boring so I tend to play on epic speed. I could change, but don't see how this would make a huge impact on the game.

On a side note, I realised that I confused Emporer/Monarch. I actually beat the game on Emporer; I'm one of those obsessive people who has to beat the previous level before moving onto the next one. Not that any of that really matters.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

I find normal makes games go by very quickly

I tend to agree, I prefer Marathon personally but Lymond is right Normal / Standard is best for learning.

As for having nothing to build - prioritise Currency and then you can build wealth when you have nothing better to do.

 

[blunderwonder]

I just started playing again, I think if you're looking to win on deity maybe go back and play through some of the IU games for some help with different strategies, and benchmarks for how well you can play a given map. Watching some Lets Plays on deity is usually pretty good too for good insights on tech trading and managing different kind of rushes. Ive only won on deity a handful of times, and its usually pretty painful. If you get boxed in or keep getting declared on, it can cause serious problems, trying to come back from a game where you cant get more than 2 good cities is basically impossible. Usually a single landmass is going to be optimal so noone gets 15 cities or one continent doesnt go nuts with tech trading.

1) With workers, its just important not to work on tiles you wont need for a long time, if you know in advance you only can keep happy cap at 5, theres no need for 6 improved tiles, theres no need for roads if things are touching a river, dont need to road every tile that kind of thing, sometimes you can move a worker, put in 1 turn of farming, then move him to the tile you actually wanted to improve, that sort of thing.

2) Building a new palace is a huge investment, and its not really worth it just for maintenance. Civ4 handles it differently than civ 3, alot of the maintenance comes from the # of cities, some of it from distance, but eventually you need courthouses and trade routes and building wealth to make them worthwhile. Usually your starter location is going to be fine as its guaranteed some resources.

3) IW is always going to be researched by the AI, as its a military tech and it opens up machinery and the other crappy techs... your better off going for aesthetics/philo for the liberalism bulbs etc. Its a pretty common thing because the AI generally waits on them, so you can get them first and use the trades to backfill or keep up.

4) its important to get to alphabet/currency for this reason, so you can build weath/research. Also, you can whip a library and just run scientists if you really have nothing to build then you can get a great person and some beakers in the meantime.

 

[lymond]

DIstance maintenance is actually pretty impactful, and you really feel the effects at the highest level..it increases dramatically

Staler your logic on the central cap is not bad at at all, but most important thing for the cap is Bureaucracy..next powerful civic to slavery. Anyway, as your empire grows you can start building CHs in far away cities and eventually the Forbidden Palace in a far away but central regional location, which serves similar purpose in reducing city distance maintenance, like the cap. (Versailles wonder also does this, but is rarely built by human...for one the tech is hideous)

Speed and map size is actually quite a difference in many ways. But regardless of personal preference, learning this game is about repetition. Heck, finishing games is really not a concern right now if you truly want to move up. What you need is practice, and slower speeds just has you tooling around for days or weeks on the same game doing the same bad stuff. Plus, many of the experienced players here play normal setttings, so they can better help you if you do. And what you learn can later translate to other settings should you so choose.

But again note that larger maps, especially at less compatible game speed, just makes things much hard for you as well...exponentially harder as you move up levels....even though technically slower the speed means easier the game. Marathon speed is kindergarten.

IW is generally not very important at all except in certain situations (UUs) or extremely jungle-y mess you are dealt. Otherwise, so easy to trade for and AIs generally have no issues holding back this tech from you. Tech rates on higher levels, mean you will be able to trade for it quite soon once Alpha starts showing up.

 

[Fippy]

Yup it's a simple concept (in a complex game ).
If you do the same things more often, you get better with them.

I wish we still had series like those cookbooks or Kossin's micro challenges, those were the threads that really helped everyone who read and / or tried them.
Peoples actually have no real chance getting to Imm or even deity level, if they play just 1 game for weeks or months.

 

[Staler87]

I read the advice and decided that the best thing to do is play another game; although who really needs an excuse to play another game of civ IV?
I landed in a pretty good starting position too:

 

[Staler87]

Well, that previously posted start didn't go so well when I tried an Immortal rush on China with a protective leader. Somehow rushes just don't work as well against protective leaders. Started another game that went better, in fact, I was in it until my best buddy declared war on me while I was fighting Spain and then everyone pounced. I uploaded the save file so my strategy can get torn apart.

 

[blunderwonder]

Rushes dont always work. Sometimes they get early metal and have spearman, other times by the time you get your rush in gear another civ expanded and got a big lead. Sometimes you will do well, but you end up with so many cities and units that you basically crawl to currency/CoL which really slows you down, and you end up not having enough good tiles to work.

 

[Staler87]

Rushes dont always work. Sometimes they get early metal and have spearman, other times by the time you get your rush in gear another civ expanded and got a big lead. Sometimes you will do well, but you end up with so many cities and units that you basically crawl to currency/CoL which really slows you down, and you end up not having enough good tiles to work.

Yes, I've had to restart games because I've failed rushes. Fortunately, they often do work. I don't think there is a strategy that will work 100% of the time otherwise we'd all just beat deity with that strategy 100% of the time. Rushes are not the safest strategy, but I still think it's a viable one.

 

[lymond]

Not sure what you are trying to do here, Staler. You post pics of games - no saves- then report back that you have failed. That is not learning.

Shame about that corn gems start. I might have moved settler too.

You do not always need to rush

You do not always need to play Darius

Simple Empire management training is what you need now ....you miss basic mechanics

Look at other threads in this forum for inspiration

 

[Staler87]

I'm not sure what you mean? I've posted four save files of three different games. I posted pics of one game where I failed and didn't post a save but I failed because I tried a rush on a protective leader. I'm not sure how you analyse that in-depth, I just made a really simple, really stupid, error.

I haven't always played Darius when I played on lower levels, just figured I would learn how to beat Immortal using one strategy, and one leader, then learn to beat it with other leaders. I'm not sure why that would be a bad idea, but I'll play someone else next time and see how I do. Change is good.

I realise that I probably do lack basic empire management skills. That's why I posted here.

 

[lymond]

That is fine. Point was that the Leader should not really matter. The issues are not about traits or uniques.

One very important thing about Civ IV is the early game is so important..first 50 turns or so. So perusing some save files from late game doesn't really do much.

For one, like the last example, I would have posted the start and asked for advice on opening moves..how to analyze the start for best position, where to move unit for more detailed, where to settle. The comes opening techs and worker management. IMM rushing a protective leader is not out of the question, but maybe the approach was wrong.

Settling on a sugar or the plains hill might be a better option there for the bonus.