[BTS] Trying for Deity/Immortal win

Man, I didn't think of the gold/corn thing as it was too close to Boudicca. I restarted like you recommended and went to where I had a settler trained to found a third city. if I screwed up I can just restart. I'm really not sure where to settle now:
Civ4ScreenShot0016.JPG
Edit: Looking at this photo my immediate thought is why the heck am I building granaries. I should have whipped out another worker in my second city already. Oh well, guess I'll just have to replay it again. I still have no idea on that third city though.
 

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  • Elizabeth BC-1960.CivBeyondSwordSave
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No worries about granaries, they are never really wrong.

For 3rd city you probably want to look into a cottage sharing one with London now, there are some okay spots for that but i will let Lymond do that as i do not want to interrupt :)

We can already discuss some basics thou, with financial and a not bad river side Cap you usually want to look into growing cottages for Bureaucracy later. You want that happening relative early if going that way, so with no obvious great 3rd city spots it's becoming the next best option.
 
Axe rush always works on immortal, the question is whether it's worth it. With that poor land I would be tempted to axe rush with two cities. Look at Vienne, it still is guarded by a lone archer. Should you be prepared to attack now it would be easy. Note that Boudica has already got horses meaning that you would need a couple of spears.
I would probably settle on wine, that city could borrow corn at some point to speed up growth.
It's such a pain to see an axeman sitting in a city.
Don't forget to open borders on the next turn an build a road connecting Vienne and York.
PH is short for plains hills or priesthood.
 
Blue circle next to Jumbos would actually be okay, what a shock ~~
Needs border pop but otherwise not bad really.
But it's also worth to think about sharing corn instead.
 
Two cities can't work the same tile, right? How do you 'share' a tile?

The axemen was there to escort my settler.

Just to clarify, jumbos means the elephants.
 
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Two cities can't work the same tile, right? How do you 'share' a tile?

What is meant by sharing is that two cities are within reach of working the tile. That way you can change which city works it (via the city screen, click on a 'dark' tile within reach, and you can work it in the 'active' city, if that made sense). This can be very useful for growing cottages for the capital. Helper cities work the cottages that the capital can't work early, and when you have more happiness and the capital can grow, the capital takes over the now more developed cottages instead of having to start on scratch.

This can also be very useful with food or other resources. Generally it's not a bad idea for cities to 'overlap'. It takes a veeeeeery long time for cities to grow to size 20 and thus work all its tiles, so it's more efficient to have overlap between cities. That way you can work more tiles sooner, and in addition there are lower maintenance costs. Easier to defend them too, in case you end up in a defensive war, or have barb troubles.

Two cities can't work the same tile at the same time though. You are correct about that.
 
What is meant by sharing is that two cities are within reach of working the tile. That way you can change which city works it (via the city screen, click on a 'dark' tile within reach, and you can work it in the 'active' city, if that made sense). This can be very useful for growing cottages for the capital. Helper cities work the cottages that the capital can't work early, and when you have more happiness and the capital can grow, the capital takes over the now more developed cottages instead of having to start on scratch.

This can also be very useful with food or other resources. Generally it's not a bad idea for cities to 'overlap'. It takes a veeeeeery long time for cities to grow to size 20 and thus work all its tiles, so it's more efficient to have overlap between cities. That way you can work more tiles sooner, and in addition there are lower maintenance costs. Easier to defend them too, in case you end up in a defensive war, or have barb troubles.

Two cities can't work the same tile at the same time though. You are correct about that.

Thanks for the clarification.
 
Also, what should I research after writing? Alphabet looks tempting to start trading with AI's. Once I get it I could trade for AH masonry and hunting to work those resources in my capital.
 
My said:
Gold + Corn (in middle so no border pop needed, where scout stands) is very good for a 2nd city, in this situation even your only reasonable option.

Exactly..although Staller placed York a bit farther than I expected (reading other responses I see why he does that)

Staller said:
Just wondering what PH means? From what I know it's all about acids and bases but I feel that's not the definition being used here.

PH= Plains Hill FP = Floodplain

Stall = delay, idle, stop, etc (Staller is someone who stalls) ...also, a stall is where horses resides

Stale = old, musty, not ripe, not in fashion, etc. (Staler means more stale)

Staller said:
1) I didn't want to send my settler out un-escorted. Although I probably should have moved the second warrior to the potential spot I would use for settling.

Exactly...the warriors should be spawnbusting potential cities. However, the actual location we had planned for you would not have been in immediate danger

Staller said:
2) Never really thought too much about it which is probably an issue. The road to corn just gets me extra health and I don't really need that at this point, the farm is a bit pointless especially considering I chose a financial leader and I need cottages. However, the road was put up before I got BW which means there really wasn't anything else to build.

Oh yeah, forgot about the need to tech Agri..so BW would not have quite finished yet. Still I would look to make an improvement if possible, PH mine are not ideal since they are food deficit, but can still be good in short term for settler production..i think this is what you did in second try

Staller said:
3) What happens if barbarians walk into my borders and walk into London?

Already answered by My, but yeah, the idea here is to prevent/limit the spawn of barbs in your vicinity and protect future sites. Cities are not in danger for quite some turns on IMM.

Staller said:
As for the second city. The gems/bananas place will be bad as I can't remove jungles for awhile and therefore will not be able to work the things. I'm thinking the copper and corn. Gets me two solid early resources and probably denies an AI copper.

Yes, that city does absolutely nothing for you short term.. There is no benefit in the "now". Not that you might not try to get it later after you trade for IW, but you want cities ideally in close proximity that overlap and tile share with your cap. Corn/gold to the W is ideal for this.

Corn/Gold should have been settled 2 tiles W of London or 2 tiles W 1tile S so that gold is in first ring. Gold is a great thing to have early for the commerce. However, non-river desert gold is not as lucrative as riverside PH gold, so my preference was 2W of London for more overlap and tile sharing. Not only can this city work copper when London is not, but can help with cottage growth.

As Pangaea noted, cities can indeed share tiles and this is a MAJOR thing to learn that you clearly were not aware of previously. Overlapping is a good thing for multiple reasons. Tile sharing has already been noted for cottage growing and sharing other improvements, but also distance maintenance costs which grow dramatically on the highest levels. Thus, keeping your economy in better shape. Lastly, there is also a benefit to worker management with tile sharing as you need less improvements initially since cities can share improvements. And keep in mind that cities will be whipping off citizens now and then so will have less pop. Adjust citizens between cities after whips to make sure the best tiles are worked.
 
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Also, what should I research after writing? Alphabet looks tempting to start trading with AI's. Once I get it I could trade for AH masonry and hunting to work those resources in my capital.

Jumbos are ivory, yes

Alpha is a trickier tech once you reach like IMM level. AIs can get to Alpha pretty quick on this level, so sometimes it is better to tech something they are less likely to go for early like Aesths. Math is also an AI priority tech, but has great benefits so sometimes I just tech it myself directly and then maybe on to Currency. Maths will likely get you IW at least among other things. Alpha you can trade for later when you get the chance but is not directly urgent since once one AI gets it they will start trading it around. You don't actually need Alpha to trade, just the AIs having it.

I would go back and replay here so that you can settle York 1tile closer to London

I would have wanted one of my warriors to the E to prevent barb city spawn on a good future location (corn/copper). But i think cows/ivory is good second city for the closeness and overlap. My's position is ok, but personally I would settle 1S of cows for more overlap and cottage sharing with London. Or heck, even on the ivory itself so city might share the corn sometimes for growth, and you may not have AH for some time.

Try to get a road into Boudi as soon as you can for foreign trade routes...good boost to overall commerce

There's a decent city way down south that I like too at some point. It's a bit far away and that area will be infested by barbs but if you can get a unit down there to bust, the fish site has some good resources for happiness. Maybe 4th or fifth city.

Grans always good in cites with food. And you can either whip them out, or put some hammers into them now but finish later. Important though is to finish the Granary before the Food Bucket hits the halfway mark at that pop level minus the surplus food currently. So analyze your Food Bar in city screen and detect the math involved.

The reason for this is the Gran stores half the food bar at a pop level. If you finish such that it is past the halfway mark that turn it finishes, it won't store enough food for the next pop growth. So it is optimal to finish the Gran before reaching the halfway mark less food surplus (because food surplus may make the city to go over the halfway mark the next turn.

(note: London would be cottaged Bureau cap with or without FIN..you always look to cultivate a good Bureau cap in most games)
 
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Staller, I'm going to give you a little exercise regarding Granaries, so you can see and test the mechanics in an isolated situation. Grans are so important and I want you to see why. It's how you turn food into production and is a key concept for Civ IV.

I've provided an attached save using Bizmarky Mark. Biz is an expansive leader with bonus on Granary build, so I chose him as I only need two forest chops (pre-Maths) to complete Gran in one turn, for convenience. (post-Maths just needs one chop)

I've generously provided you two workers, Agri>POT>BW, and miraculously your corn and rice already have farms. Berlin is ready to rock.

In the first image provide I simply show you the Food bar and Food Surplus, so that you know where to look. I want you to start analyzing it for this little test, but also in real games as well.

Spoiler City View 1 :


Second view is the same, but with mouse hovered over food bar so that the Food Bucket appears just to the left. Viewing this let's you see the actually Food filling the bucket each turn. At turn 0 a city needs 22 food to reach the next pop. It's the Food Surplus that fills the bucket and allows the city to grow as opposed to stagnating. Obviously you are at 0 out of 22 food on turn 0. The food required to grow another population increases a bit each turn.

Spoiler City View 2 :


Here I show you the city right as I chop the granary to completion the turn after city reaches pop 2.

Spoiler City View 3 :


And here is same view with the food bucket showing just left of food bar, as you can see. So to illustrate for you, the city has 9 food surplus as seen in previous image and 2F in the bucket. Next turn city will have 11 food in the bucket, which is less than half of the 24 food required to grow to Size 3. So this turn is the optimal time to finish the granary, or basically anytime before the food bucket would exceed 1/2 the total food requirement to grow to the next pop, on the turn the Gran would actually finish. This allows the Granary to start filling up before growth, so that growth is maximized subsequently.

Spoiler CIty View 4 :



So this is the steps I'd like you to take:

Test 1 - No granary

Simply ignore the workers (they can sleep) and just cycle through turns and check the food bar/bucket after each pop growth. (queue up warriors are whatever, but not settlers or workers since they halt growth) Note to yourself the growth of the food bucket after each pop, as well as overall how fast Berlin is growing without a granary. Do this to Size 6.

Test 2 - Granary

(load original test save again so you are back at turn 0)

a) Start workers chopping the forest they currently stand on. BAT will stop them from completing chops. You want to hold these chops until Berlin reaches Size 2

b) Immediately at Size 2 have workers chop the forests and put Granary in queue so that it finishes the next turn

c) Note the food bar and food bucket the next turn when Gran finishes. Should be 11/24

d) Proceed to Size 3 and note food bar and food bucket and overall growth of the city (workers can do whatever)

c) Proceed to size 6 and just analyze what is going on. Keep new citizens on food tiles

Lastly, as a third test, repeat Test 2 but don't chop granary until the turn BEFORE Berlin reaches size 3 and then analyze the results. I should note that the corn and rice gives Berlin high food surplus at small population, and food surplus factors into city growth AND filling Granary, so you will see some faster growth even with the less optimized finish of the granary. However, what you will see is the benefit of finishing a granary before the food bucket is half full.

Note: Granaries are filled with food surplus as a city grows between pops. Food Surplus is obviously a factor of the tiles a city works and pop size, so this can vary dramatically between cities based on what resources and improvements they have. So when cities are small early game (size 1 to 6) and have good food surplus with optimized Granary build, you can see super fast city growth. But ultimately, what you will generally get from a Granary is that the at each new pop, the city will have its Food Bucket already at least half full, because that is what a granary does, i.e., stores half the food. Thus, it will always make cities grow much faster than without one and; thusly, makes whipping much more efficient.


.... but i will let Lymond do that as i do not want to interrupt :)

Please do interrupt, as much as you wish ;) You are the Mistress of Civ IV, and I'm just a lowly stooge
 

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  • Gran Test BC-4000.CivBeyondSwordSave
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The granary thing is fairly interesting. I can see what you mean by saying timing is important in this game. Anyways founded my third city and I'm about to research Aesthetics. What should I go for next? I'm thinking of beelining for currency, and then going for that tech to build the GL (forgot the name), obviously trading to backfill a bit in-between. I've got the third city up and running, probably gonna get another worker from the cap next with the overflow from whipping the library. I'm thinking of going for the gems and bananas for my fourth city as I should have traded for IW by then. Here's the situation:
Civ4ScreenShot0018.JPG
 

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  • Elizabeth BC-1440.CivBeyondSwordSave
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Ok..some progress, but still a lot of concerns here. I'd really like to see you play shorter sets. You've really played on quite a bit, so it's harder to manage the mistakes.

So now I must sort of balance between explaining what I see wrong here, as well as what should probably have happened by now.

First, a couple of visual aides:

Below is the Culture view. You can find this option by clicking the globe at the bottom right - above the min-map - and then the culture button :culture:. This views allows one to see culture borders of the AIs, even when they are not clearly visible on the normal map. Just something to keep an eye now and then during the game, especially early when scouting is limited, as this gives you an idea of the proximity of the AIs. For one, you know areas that are relatively safe as cities are near. Also, you know how close the AIs are in terms of settling patterns.

Spoiler Culture View :


Next another view of the map in which I noted areas of concern for barbs. These are areas that really should have been spawnbusted by now. The warrior on the forested PH to the E is in a good position. The one up north is okay, although note that as your cultural borders expand outwards, you might adjust your spawnbusters to get more coverage.

So it's a balance of that 5X5 spawnbust rule, and what tiles are actually clear and safe.

Spoiler Danger! :


So now to note the concerns...

1) Aesths probably ok. Again, it's a good bargaining chip for trades. I still might have gone Maths here though. (Note: To trade Aesths for Alpha you may need to put a turn or two into Alpha, unless you have another small tech to balance the trade)

2) York should grab the copper now since you just whipped off London. Always manage the micro of your cities each turn, especially early on to get the most you can out of what you have. (Again, now you hopefully see the benefit of overlapping these cities)

3) You seem to have a lot of gold. I assume you run 0% research for some turns to accumulate gold to fund Aesths, but you appear to have overdone it. (oh..you have huts on so may have nabbed some gold from huts..not sure..keep in mind that huts really benefit the AIs more than you on this level) But you did not have near that much gold at the last report, so probably most came from running 0% research.

So really it appears you should have run 100% research sooner. Try to do a little math and get a feel for when to fully fund research.

4) So, my concern is that I would expect a bit more here than I see. You need to try to work in some more warriors while you can build them. You axes should be outside or on the edge of borders. Like one moving south to keep that bad area safe and maybe the other closer to the barb city. Archers may start coming from that city. (shame that barb city is there but not a bad place really and you can take it later with axes)

5) York's granary does not appear to have been optimized. It appears that the city just grew but is not getting the growth it should have - at least 1/2 full. So it was not finished at the right time.

6) Workers - some problems here. It's okay that a couple of FPs have been cottaged, but don't overdo the cottaging early. You still need to chop forests and have something for cow/ivory to work. You are still in expansion mode now, and there is lots to do besides cottaging every tile that cities can't even work yet.

7) Library in London is okay, but I would have like to see another worker and settler by this point. York could have done some of this sooner at the expense of the Library for now...plus you would have had chops in York and London as well to help them along.

Good news, is that your economy is still quite good with your compact empire, 2 or 3 growing cottages, and the foreign trade routes with Boudi. Check city screen in top left to see trade routes, and notice the difference between internal trade route yield and foreign trade routes. Trade routes = commerce, so the same outputs as cottages and gold. You are making 29 gpt at 0% research which is great. If you settled cities way off in the distance, it would choke your economy - it's even much worse on Deity.

Note that you can also get Settlers out and get them in position, but not settle until you are ready or you see and AI threatening that spot of a settler of there own. Just something to note.

So now with granaries you can 4>2 or 6>3 whip settlers or 4>2 whip workers. You can get them out very quick. 4>2 whip settlers benefit from a forest chop to speed them up. 6>3 whip settlers can be whipped after one turn. (Note: Imperialistic trait impacts this)

So to summarize at this stage, you seen the benefit of a compact empire and city overlap but still many things could be improved over your last session. It's really about finding a balance in things and being aware of how each decision you make impacts the next one. Like having workers build improvements that really add no value currently, since they can't be worked anyway.

The next big thing is starting to analyze your production bar in the city (below food bar) as well as the overflow hammers you get from whipping stuff, as well as passive overflow from completing things normally.

edit: Oh..and open borders with everyone you can. The only time you might not is if you see AIs with Worst Enemies. Always note when there are Worst Enemies (WE), and also that that sometimes changes frequently. So really you have to make a judgement call in that case. First, open borders helps to build up diplo, not to mention eventually trade routes. However, OBing an AI with a WE may make the WE ask you at some point to cancel relations. You can decide not to, but either way you will take a diplo hit with one or the other depending on what you decide. Ofc, Diplo in general is not something we've discussed much with you yet, but it becomes far more important to manage it well on higher levels, as AIs can be more aggressive - not just including the AIs that are already so inclined like the psychos. We can go into that more later, but based on what I see in your save there are no WEs so no reason not to OB with everyone.

edit2: Again, I'd like you to backtrack here a bit I try to do things a little differently based on what I've said, and also stop sooner for a report.

And later I definitely would like to see you stop and report as soon as any AI gets Alpha.
 
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Corn/Gold should have been settled 2 tiles W of London or 2 tiles W 1tile S so that gold is in first ring. Gold is a great thing to have early for the commerce. However, non-river desert gold is not as lucrative as riverside PH gold, so my preference was 2W of London for more overlap and tile sharing. Not only can this city work copper when London is not, but can help with cottage growth.
A good point, still I would settle on a hill. With a neighbour like Boudica early DoW is not a rare thing, so you want to have your border cities on hills, makes it a lot easier to defend them.
 
Great feedback from Lymond. It may be too much info to take in at once and implement in your game right now, but keep it in mind for the future.

The one thing that jumped out at me when looking at your picture in Turn 64, is that the Cow isn't improved yet. Is Nottingham brand new? Suppose those guys with an English flag 1W of the city is a worker? Make him improve the cow right away. Priority #1 is to improve food. If you have Hunting, do Ivory next, and you get some more happiness. Later you can also build War Elephants, which are really, really strong in the early game (base strength 8), but for that you first need Horseback Riding and Construction.

Those techs aren't necessarily the top priorities now, but I point it out to show that if you want to go to war here, you will have some excellent units in War Elephants + Catapults. That works well even on Deity.
 
1) When I restart I will go for maths instead
2) Point taken.
3) I got a random event giving me gold. That's why I have so much, I realise that I shouldn't use random events for a forum game.
4) Why do I want to build warriors? They die to everything.
5) I wasn't thinking about it and I probably should have been.
6) I haven't researched the techs for cow/ivory and Nottingham was founded last turn. Should I do that?
7) I'm too used to civ V, unfortunately.
forgot to do the open borders thing
 
3) I got a random event giving me gold. That's why I have so much, I realise that I shouldn't use random events for a forum game.
Just wait til you start getting slavery revolts, or barb horde spawn events...ugh
4) Why do I want to build warriors? They die to everything.

I would not underestimate the value of the warrior. IMO it is one of the most important military units in the game. And the simple reason is they are cheap. Remember that we keep saying the early game is so important. Well, warriors are part of the equation as they are cheap and help keep you safe, because you use them for spawnbusting and then for MP for cities. You don't want your axes as MP ..you want them protecting you from wandering barbs. In most games, the majority of my early empire is MP'd by warriors.
5) I wasn't thinking about it and I probably should have been.

All that work I put into your Granary exercise :cry::lol:
6) I haven't researched the techs for cow/ivory and Nottingham was founded last turn. Should I do that?

Again, you will likely trade for AH soon. Hunting is a very cheap tech and one of those techs you generally don't want to trade for, but you will be able to tech it in 1 turn sooner or later, but not urgency..keep the tech focus. With that, I should explain that there is the WFYABTA (We Fear You Are Becoming To Advanced) factor with the AI. That is, AIs have a limit on trading techs so you want to be judicious in trading with them. Trade for the key techs, but not all the little dinky techs as they add up to that WFYABTA calculation. (note: Mansa is the only AI that does not have this and why folks love having him in the game, i.e., fast and peaceful techer who always trades with you)

7) I'm too used to civ V, unfortunately.

We will beat that out of you :lol: Speaking of which, remembering early discussions some time ago over in General, I'm hoping you now see the merits and complexity of Civ IV :)..and you still have so much more to learn


Oh, one more thing on cow/ivory city. It is a bit of an unusual settle in that you don't have immediate resource specials to improve, but the idea here is that it is overall a good overlapping helper city for London that will eventually be somewhat productive. However, it would have been good by now to have a cottage somewhere between London and that city so that city could at least be developing that cottage. Plus, one of those forest could be chopped.
 
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4) Why do I want to build warriors? They die to everything.

Although they are called warriors, they are not supposed to fight, not on immortal+ anyway. As lymond said their main task is spawnbust. Warrior fortified on a forested hill has got very good odds against archers. A warrior costs just 15 hammers and could prevent barbs city spawn at corn+copper spot.
 
(note: Mansa is the only AI that does not have this and why folks love having him in the game, i.e., fast and peaceful techer who always trades with you)

That isn't quite accurate. Mansa has a "We fear..." limit too, but it's fairly high. The key thing about Mansa is that he will trade away any techs, even monopoly techs, as long as he isn't building a wonder unlocked by said tech, hasn't reached the WFYABTA (can happen late-game), or is royally p'd off at you.
 
Also, if I may offer a personal opinion on granaries: don't worry too much about perfect timing. The key thing to know is that the granary is the best building in the game, and you want them early-ish in all cities. Not necessarily as the first build, that depends on priorities, but it's a very, very good building. I just don't you over-thinking the perfect timing. Like the saying goes, perfect is the enemy of good.
 
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