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TSG57 After Action Thread

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Game Of The Month' started by Hammer Rabbi, Mar 15, 2013.

  1. glory7

    glory7 King

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2012
    Messages:
    704
    yeah, I think that 100% bonus is huge - I had to build a new city for coal, but even with that delay I could manage to get factories before plastics. for cap, it took 5 turns and for petra city, 3 turns for factory. 25% factory sci bonus alone is not really big (as you already have more than 100% modifier so adding 25% is not that critical), but with building bonus 100% and production bonus it gives and 2 engineer slots are great.

    I think it's really important to get money for labs, as that's the time when real spt comes in. I think my spt was about 780 before plastics, and it jumped to 1150 with 5 labs bought after 2 turns.

    for culture.. I think I had couple of culture CS allies couple of friends and that helped. As tommynt said, your cpt should mainly come from CS, not from your own buildings and artists. And I spread my religion to key CS first so that I could get 25% less decay bonus (with patro open, it's 50% less!).

    I seldom fill any other specialist slots than sci before labs. For some cities with not that many good tiles I put engineer or artist too, but not for main cities. growth is really important.
     
  2. fromar

    fromar Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2005
    Messages:
    192
    Location:
    USA
    I went wide early. I was everyone's best bro until I planted cities too close to Japan. Oda only built one city, and I put a couple cities on either side of the mountains to the north east. Oda declared on me. I beat him back and built another city south-west of Kyoto before making peace.

    I declared war on Oda after I had a strong tech advantage. I was focusing on science, not military, so my army was too small to mount a decisive attack. The no reload rule keeps me from mounting overly risky attacks, so I backed down when it seemed I was not going to have an swift victory.

    I built my third or fourth city on the desert coast to the north east of the starting location. It was a runt of a city until I built the Petra and loaded up on terrace farms. The three mountain desert hill was so valuable with the Petra and terrace farm, I didn't install a mine when the aluminum appeared.

    Oda was at war on and off with Teodora and Washington for most of the game until America took Kyoto. Oda never built another city. Napoleon took the Ottomans and China out of the game entirely. Another civ was gone before I met them. Carthage was reduced to two cities, and Napoleon started building cities on my continent. France pulled ahead of me in score, power, etc, but he was not close to me in science or culture.

    I finished liberty and rationalism, 3/6 patronage, and 4/6 in order. I had DoF with America and Theodora for nearly the entire game. They were too poor to do research agreements. I think I got one out of each through the entire game. As soon as I met Napoleon and Dido, we had DoFs. They even went to war with each other, and I never even got any visible negative modifiers for friending their enemy. I had research agreements with both of them for the rest of the game.

    I really enjoyed this game.
     
  3. ense7en

    ense7en n7

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2011
    Messages:
    995
    Location:
    Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
    I managed a personal best science win in this one!
    t246 win, by far my best time ever for a spaceship launch.

    Game: Civ5 GOTM 57
    Date submitted: 2013-03-18
    Reference number: 28551
    Your name: ense7en
    Game status: Science Victory
    Game date: 1680AD
    Turns played: 246
    Base score: 1639
    Final score: 3344
    Time played: 6:27:00

    I love the Inca, always enjoy my games with them!

    Terrace Farms are just insane. Every time i play them i marvel.
    With Fertilizer, you can build them even on random hills for 2f2p...just ridiculous how awesome they make this civ for any victory condition.

    -I settled three cities. I captured two of Japan's and Byzantine's cap + took one of her far away other cities for peace as it had two unique luxs (and i later discovered also had coal :))

    -Spying was used for rigging elections and defending against tech thievery.
    Not so much need for them when you are two-three eras ahead.

    -Diplomacy, hah.
    I like to cripple neighbors, which i did.
    America really angered me with their prophet spam, and i actually declared war on them when they managed to bomb my Petra city with a prophet, but they quickly begged for peace offering all they had for resources, so i let them be, as i didn't really feel like rampaging thru them even though i could have easily.

    -King is too easy for me, so basically it let me spam wonders with wild abandon, meaning i got every single one i wanted, and more i didn't even really need.

    Hammer Rabbi, regarding map setup, i loved it.
    Fantastic map, what maptype was it based around?

    As i often do, i underestimated how quickly i could bulb my way thru the last techs, and i ended up wasting my Hubble GSes as i hard built it instead of using a GE (it wouldn't actually have saved too much time though as i got one more GS from faith vs. a GE being used for Hubble).

    I settled my cap on the deer. I suppose the coast was better from seeing what glory7 pulled off (t199!), but i hate giving up land tiles as i like to settle a lot of academies.
    My third city was the desert mountain one. Actually settled it really late, but with Petra + Terrace Farms, it still turned into an absolutely monstrous city.

    I actually focused on building more cultural buildings and got lots of policies compared to normal (less focus on building military helps, along with lots of wonders).

    Went full Tradition then Rationalism till i could open Order and take +25% science from Factories. Then went back and did all but the last policy in Rationalism (saved till the end).
    Was able to open Patronage + one more in Order as extra policies.

    Screenshots at game's end (t246)

    home sweet home
    Spoiler :


    Overshot my techs needed...
    Spoiler :


    Religion choices (in hindsight not the best obviously)
    Spoiler :


    Cities overview
    Spoiler :


    Social policies
    Spoiler :
     
  4. Hammer Rabbi

    Hammer Rabbi Deity GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2012
    Messages:
    4,460
    Location:
    USA
    I'm glad you liked it. Sub-250 is VERY satisfying for me, too. Well done.

    This was a random setting continents with a nice area for Inca to make good use of Terrace Farms. I tried several maps that had very few local Terrace opportunities. I think pangea is the more popular map type but when doing lots of random starts I like to go with ones that play to the civs strengths without being too easy or powerful (El Dorado, FoY, etc).
     
  5. Shader

    Shader Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2002
    Messages:
    14
    Game: Civ5 GOTM 57
    Date submitted: 2013-03-19
    Reference number: 28554
    Your name: shader
    Game status: Science Victory
    Game date: 1868AD
    Turns played: 304
    Base score: 1744
    Final score: 2906
    Time played: 8:37:00
    Submitted save: GOTM57.Civ5Save
    Renamed file: shader_C505701.Civ5Save


    My first Civ5 GOTM submission. Not all that happy with the time.

    By the end, I was completely in control, I got 25 wonders, and was the dominant civ, which I should be on the King level.

    I haven't read any After Action reports, so i'm eager to see what path the winners of this contest chose. I think I should have gone Liberty and tried to get around ten cities or so. Instead, I went Tradition, had four cities, and then built a 5th and conquered the Japan capital.

    As far as my big mistake, I think it was two-fold. First, early on I bought and built a settler a few turns early, before I was able to connect my luxuries, which screwed me for a few turns. Second, it took me forever to steal a worker! There really are no close-by civs or city-states except for Warsaw and it took quite awhile for Warsaw to produce a worker. This set me back.

    Finally, once I started pumping out Crossbowmen and took over Japan, I had a decision to make. Go for Constantinople or sit back and build my empire. I chose to sit back and left Constantinople. I think I could have had it, but didn't want to risk it at the time. I think I should have pumped a few more units out and then went for that capital.

    Oh and a huge mistake was my 2nd city. For some reason I picked a tile on the north coast on a hill that was NOT next to a mountain! I built the petra and had a great city that was practically as powerful as my capital. But not getting the observatory may have cost me some turns in the end.
     
  6. Maxym

    Maxym King

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2011
    Messages:
    973
    Location:
    Canada
    Science Victory
    Game date:1525AD
    Turns played:215
    Base score:1843
    Final score:4286

    that was a fun game, i was trying to chase glory's times and came a bit closer this time.
    played with HOF rules as always, so no repeat gpt draining wars, but took some early gold from Japan.

    bulbed a GS to grab plastics on t 177, my personal best so far. then one GS for Apollo.

    Rationalism finisher was the limiting factor, i had to wait till t213 to grab last 2 techs, i stacked some overflow (2 turns) in petra cityand chopped 3 forests hoping to get my last part in one turn, but fell short by 20 hammers.

    Started fighting late, mostly with gifted units, took most of Oda's lands and all of Washington's

    had one RA with Dido, didnt bother with enyone else, but i should have, even paying for both sides a few 5 turn reductions would have been worth it. I was short on cash early, then had lots, happiness was never an issue as i took ceremonial burial

    i should have tried what pkf tried and got a GE for SOH to cut that wait for last policy. instead i got 3 GS form faith. i was basically one GS short, not having gardens in most cities hurt me there

    i am happy overall, with 23 turn reduction from my last sience game as Pacal, despite messing up my initial city placement and losing out on Uluru spot (it had a barb camp) and 3 Byz units trying to walk into and settle my lands so i kept them there. I was also afraid Oda would declare as soon as i settled. I should have put one there and see what happened. then it was too late, he spammed some suboptimal ones around it i settled another one next to two wheat SE of cap.

    I wanted more then usual 4 cities and it paid off, if i could get 6 early ones it would have been even better, they all contributed and i needed them as i did not have annexed caps, they came too late.

    Spoiler :
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Hieschen

    Hieschen Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2012
    Messages:
    155
    Location:
    Dark Side of the Moon
    Game: Civ5 GOTM 57
    Date submitted: 2013-03-19
    Reference number: 28556
    Your name: Hieschen
    Game status: Science Victory
    Game date: 1846AD
    Turns played: 293
    Base score: 1414
    Final score: 2437
    Time played: 6:01:00

    Finished for the first time ever sub 300....

    Was a lot of fun to play, but I realise that I am rather "bad" compared to most here.

    Peaceful game, not a single war (i am not at all a warmonger), full liberty, got 4 cities up and running rather quickly
    got GL, was perhaps a bit slow with NC, worked on it with 4 cities....
    Could probably shave a few turns off by micromanaging (which i hate doing) and by exploiting (which i do not want to do, even though I do not object that people do it in this competitive setting)
    some stupid mistakes, took me until turn 240 to realise that 3rd largest city was not using any specialists....sigh, should pay at least some attention to micromanaging i think

    Incas a very interesting to play, was my first (bought DLC just for GOTM actually)

    Looking forward to the fastest finishers

    Thx for the game, will look into 56 tomorrow i think

    Keep up the good work

    Pat
     
  8. ense7en

    ense7en n7

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
    Liberty is good for this map as well, but i think the additional growth from Tradition (especially with how insane terrace farms are) is far better overall.

    Actually you could go both (would be great for this map), but then you'd be unable to get Rationalism + the two Order policies you ideally want.
     
  9. glory7

    glory7 King

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2012
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    704
    quick question: IIRC, if you follow HoF rules, you cannot make peace until you get the cap if you get lump sum for gpt or lux deal. I am not sure what you mean by taking early gold from japan.

    (of course i did not follow HoF rules but I don't think it made a big difference at this level. AIs just don't have any money and they DoWed me to cancel my swords... benefit, so I guess it cancels out)
     
  10. Maxym

    Maxym King

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    Location:
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    I think HOF rules forbid repeated DOWs to get AI money through gpt, so you get a free DOW just like in the game with warmonger reputation. After that you either take the cap or half the cities. Or get AI to DOW you. I have not looked it up recently I should check...

    Yep, it's still like that:

    "Repeatedly selling Gold per Turn (GPT) and declaring war or otherwise bringing about a war that breaks the deal. (i.e. a phony war just to break the deal.)"

    In this case like you say the amount was marginal, 90 or less if IiRC as the AIs were pretty broke, but I figured I will make it explicit in my post.
     
  11. glory7

    glory7 King

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    hm, I understood it differently before - I thought if you get any lump sum gold before DoW, you need to take cap or half of the cities. so what you are saying is that first DoW is fine no matter how much I get out of that guy, and if I DoW the same AI 2nd time I have to take cap or half of cities? I don't play HoF now but just wonder what the rules are.

    * maybe tommynt will write something like "can you talk about 'HoF' rules in HoF section?" :)
     
  12. kirbdog

    kirbdog King

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2005
    Messages:
    898
    Like some others here, this was my best science victory. I haven't really done many science victories. It was also my first win with Inca. 245 turns seems to be a popular showing and reflects several mistakes made, possibly the most severe being late to getting universities and being unable to jump from tradition to rationalism.

    Taking aesthetics turned out to be a bust. Justified because I was slow to win only. Better if I had gotten to renaissance sooner and not have been so slow to win. Missing out on the Great Library (due to habits from playing on Immortal) had a small part to play. The fourth city placement on the gems in the jungle turned out to be rather weak also. Maybe the wheat to the east would have been better, or the couple of locations to the west and north.

    I eventually founded seven cities, plopping down 3 additional ones immediately after opening Order. They might have saved a turn when bulbing GS, but really I only needed one of them to get the coal. They increased culture costs, which only worked out because I played a bit more turns than optimal.

    I spent too many turns between public schools and research labs. Using at least one GS or the Oxford University to get to plastics faster (or, even better, using it to open Renaissance) would have been wise. Oxford ended up totally wasted because a research agreement gave me the last tech I needed (instead of Oxford, which I built for that).

    Early game gold was tight, but happiness was tight too. I bought a lot of tiles, and I spent 1000 for both the settler and library for the second city. This didn't give me a big enough hoard for when I unlocked Education. Especially for the lower difficulties, where money is tighter, I need to be mindful of that.

    Tithe was okay, but even at the end it was only 40 gold per turn, and I did waste a lot of hammers and gold fiddling with negative happiness. Ceremonial burial could have helped a lot as a no-nonsense happiness boost.

    Pagodas were great. Religious community was great. Itinerant preachers always decent. Desert folklore of course good. But letting the Byzantines convert my capital not once but twice cost a lot of lost hammers and faith - at least one GS worth. Need to guard that with units next time (doh!).

    After I built Big Ben, I started freaking out thinking I was on quick. Only when I saved the game after winning did I realize it was a regular game and appreciate the turn count for what it was.

    Overall, it's a bit inspiring that I could do as well as I did with all the mistakes that I made, because that means that I could do a lot better with some simple changes. Thank you very much for this map for the game of the month.
     
  13. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

    Joined:
    May 10, 2012
    Messages:
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    The way i understand HoF is that you can DoW for workers (or just DoW out of the blue), without lump sum draining, and then just wait for settlement. After 5-6 DoW before turn 100 a vast amount of cash can be accumulated on all levels (bar Deity), so, basically, there is no 'huge' difference if you play by HoF or not.
     
  14. Maxym

    Maxym King

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    I understood it in a more restrictive sense, not one DOW per AI, but just one free DoW with gpt period, as doing another would clearly be repeating it even against another AIs.

    I would consider DoWs against all kinds of AI just to get their Gold or Rez as exploitative but I guess it's not explicitly forbidden and I think Moriarte is right, there is not much difference between HOF and not. I always avoided that, but I guess there is no reason to, besides personal preferences.

    I do try to get a woker out of my early DOW as well, I tend not to steal it from CS but from my closest neighbor I plan to take out anyway. I just was nowhere near him and could not grab one safely in this game.

    Here is the whole HoF section:

    "Exploit involving trading for Lump Sums of Gold
    Systematically making and breaking agreements for lump sums of gold with the AIs is not allowed. It is considered an exploit when there is a clear pattern of activity beyond normal play.

    Examples of tactics used:
    Repeatedly selling a resource (luxury, strategic, etc.) and pillaging or allowing Barbarians or other civs to pillage the resource or trade route to break the deal.
    Repeatedly selling a resource (luxury, strategic, etc.) and declaring war or otherwise bringing about a war that breaks the deal. (i.e. a phony war just to break the deal.)
    Repeatedly selling Gold per Turn (GPT) and declaring war or otherwise bringing about a war that breaks the deal. (i.e. a phony war just to break the deal.)
    Repeatedly selling Cities and declaring war or otherwise bringing about a war so you can take them back. (i.e. low risk, low cost war just retrieve the cities for resale to another civ.)"

    I am starting to see tommy's point that not having any rules would be clearer as you can still get a big advantage by following the rules as Moriarte pointed out. On the other hand playing the game using the tricks mentioned above does feel cheap and dirty.



    H
     
  15. glory7

    glory7 King

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    I haven't thought about this before. I agree with you that this is similar with getting lump-sum and get the rest as the peace deal - the only difference could be you get gold 5-6 turns earlier and maybe AI buys something during that period if he or she has lots of money.
     
  16. Shader

    Shader Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2002
    Messages:
    14
    glory7, I sure wish you had a full play-by-play of that amazing 199 turn victory! I'm trying to hit some of your numbers, and can't get close!
     
  17. glory7

    glory7 King

    Joined:
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    704
    For example, for domination game I think it was clearly stated that it was okay with getting lump sum before DoW and get his cap, and do the same thing repeatedly. All of my domination games at HoF (not that many though) used that strategy. So it is clearly per AI, not as a whole, that the lump-sum exploit rule applies.

    I agree that self-pillage (building fort) or barb pillaging is abusing as it does not get the diplo hit at all. And this can be clearly found by checking the save file and log if it happens repeatedly, so this one can be forbidden without confusion. With the city-selling part, I agree and it can be checked as well.

    Yet, for DoW thing I don't think it is exploit as you suffer diplo hit - I believe that it is rather personal preference, but on the other hand if I compete or compare with other people's games I love to play under the same rules so when I played several HoF games I followed HoF rules.

    The fact that experienced players like you, Moriarte, and I understand the HoF rules differently clearly shows that the current rule is not comprehensive and it is probable that players follow different interpretations of rules.

    I personally believe that that's why we do not have many games at HoF section - for example, I am pretty sure that many people at this forum can beat immortal and deity regularly but there are not that many games to compete at the HoF section. Of course another thing that I dislike is the necessary rerolls (for optimal starting positions) and I believe that it also accounts for low entries, but who knows...
     
  18. glory7

    glory7 King

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2012
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    704
    First of all, thank you for the compliments. I recommend you tommynt's youtube channel. Pick one gotm among those games, play couple of times with your own strategies, and after that follow every single move he does (you can do this on CiV5 windows mode instead of full screen, or you can use multiple screens).

    At least that's how I improved my game very fast. For earlier gotms I could not reach 50 turns within his record...
     
  19. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak Pô Chi Min

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2010
    Messages:
    5,903
    Location:
    Québec
    Current problem with HoF GnK games is that players will reroll until getting a desert(Petra) start. It cuts a lot of strategies based on the land around(which makes GnK really good compared to vanilla).

    A big mod is the ultimate solution. This mod should reengine deals and keep the player from breaking them and cut the overpowered stuff.
     
  20. Aldor

    Aldor King

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2005
    Messages:
    680
    Location:
    Germany
    This was my first G&K king level game, and my second game on that level overall (played only one shortly after release, on a duel map ;) I was expecting a sort of difficulty jump from prince, but was surprised by how easy this game went off.

    I built two cities quickly and blocked the entrance to my area with them. Went Tradition opener but then filled liberty first. I was *very* surprised by how little religious or wonder activity there was early on, allowing me free choice of religion and build GL, SH and HG.

    The other civs on the continent were rather peaceful. Oda DoWed my two times but only half-hearted, and quickly gave up again. Not sure what that was about, I've seen much stronger attacks on prince level. Eventually Oda conquered much of Theodora, but in turn lost his core cities to Washington.

    When I finally met the other continent, Napoleon was just about to conquer China, after that he finished off Suleiman and then Dido. Luckily the development on the other continent was slow, so even tho he was now higher than me in score, he wasn't as technologically advanced. He closed the gap fairly quickly tho.

    I remained mostly passive in this game, and only expanded peacefully. Overall, my biggest problem was cash in this game. Too much building on my part I guess, but the AI also had barely any cash for trading. Happiness was fairly low for a good bit of the game, but no problem anymore later.

    I must say this was a really nice map to play. I like it when I have some space to expand, some extra luxuries around and a nice way to block eventual opponents :) Thanks for making this, glad to have taken part and won my first legit king game!
     

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