Tupac03 - Aztecs in Space

[CommandoBob]

End of Previous Turnset Stats:

Science: Mathematics, 30 turns
Treasury: 62 gold, +7 gpt, 9.1.0
Cities:

1. Canberra (4) grows in 1, vJag in 2
2. Brisbane (2) grows in 4, vArcher in 3
3. Perth (2) grows in 17, vArcher in 4
4. Melbourne (1) grows in 3, rax in 2
5. Adelaide (1) grows in 3, rax in 2

Military:

• workers 005, 000 in production
• archers 001, 002 in production
• jags 007, 001 in production

Allowed units 20; current units 13

[IBT 1750 BC]
America loses an archer to German forces.
Lincoln is concerned about our Jag Observer outside Boston. I tell him it will leave.
Canberra vJag -> Settler, 3 turns.

01 1725 BC

Trading
Treasury: 70 gold, 9 gpt
IW from Lincoln: 70 gold and 6 gpt (190 gold).
Germany has learned Writing.
IW from Germany: 70 gold and 7 gpt (210 gold).
Will not trade HBR or Writing.

Other
Focus on the road to Perth.
Canberra about to riot; happy slider to 10%.
​

[IBT]
American spear defeats German eArcher.
Our observer moves automatically.

Melbourne rax -> vJag (MP duty).

02 1700 BC

Trading
Treasury: 79 gold, 8 gpt
IW from Lincoln: 79 gold and 6 gpt (199 gold).
IW from Germany: 79 gold and 7 gpt (219 gold).

Other

​

[IBT]
Bismarck wants 22 gold to ignore us. We pay and hide.

Brisbane vArcher -> vArcher, 10 turns.
Adelaide rax -> vJag, 4 turns (MP duty).

03 1675 BC

Trading
Treasury: 65 gold, 7 gpt
IW from Lincoln: 65 gold and 7 gpt (205 gold).
IW from Germany: will not trade.

Other
Melbourne about to riot; happy slider to 50%; now at -1 gpt until Melbourne is connected.


​

[IBT]
Canberra settler -> vJag, 2 turns (need to get to 1 turn)
Perth vArcher -> vArcher, 7 turns.
Melbourne switch vJag to worker, 3 turns.

04 1650 BC

Trading
Treasury: 64 gold, -1 gpt
IW from Lincoln: will not trade.
IW from Germany: will not trade.

Other
Settler and Jag NE.

​

[IBT]
Bismarck is touchy about our exploring Jag. Promise to move him.

05 1625 BC

Trading
Treasury: 63 gold, -1 gpt
IW from Lincoln: will not trade.
IW from Germany: will not trade.

Other
Perth is connected.
Begin road to NW city site.

​

[IBT]
Canberra vJag -> settler, 3 turns.


06 1600 BC

Trading
Treasury: 62 gold, 0 gpt
IW from Lincoln: will not trade.
IW from Germany: will not trade.
Germany has learned Mysticism (may have done so last turn).

Other

​

[IBT]
Melbourne worker -> vArcher, 20 turns.
Adelaide vJag -> vArcher, 7 turns.

Melbourne connected, happy slider back to 10%.

07 1575 BC

Trading
Treasury: 62 gold, 9 gpt
IW from Lincoln: 62 gold, 7 gpt (202 gold).
IW from Germany: 62 gold, 7 gpt (202 gold).

Other
Found Aztecs Anonymous on the NE Pink dot, grows in 10, walls in 10.

​

[IBT]
Germans heading back to Germany from Boston.

08 1550 BC

Trading
Treasury: 71 gold, 9 gpt
IW from Lincoln: 71 gold, 6 gpt (191 gold).
IW from Germany: 71 gold, 7 gpt (211 gold).

Other
Wake vJag in Perth, send north to check on America. Boston still standing, must have signed peace treaty with Germany. Or else Germany has problems on their eastern border.

​

[IBT]
Germans declare war on us!

vJag kills German warrior and we enter our Golden Age!

German horse kills the vJag.
Aztecs Anonymous captured and razed.
German warrior attacks and promotes an archer.

Canberra settler -> vArcher, 2 turns.
Brisbane vArcher -> vArcher, 3 turns.
Save for discussion.




Science: Mathematics, 21 turns
Treasury: 84 gold, +17 gpt, 8.1.1
Cities:

1. Canberra (4) grows in 3, vArcher in 2
2. Brisbane (3) grows in 15, vArcher in 3
3. Perth (2) grows in 8, vArcher in 1
4. Melbourne (1) grows in 6, vArcher in 9
5. Adelaide (2) grows in 14, vArcher in 3

Military:

• settlers 001, 000 in production
• workers 006, 000 in production
• archers 004, 005 in production
• jags 009, 000 in production

Allowed units 20; current units 20

Australian-Aztec Empire 1525 BC

And the save is >>Here<<.

 

[CommandoBob]

The good news is that all our cities are connected.

The bad news is that we built a city and then lost it to Germany. They will take a rep hit, as their units were inside our territory when they declared war. Which does not help us now.

I had planned to play 10 turns and post the game, but this serves as a better stopping point.

I knew that Germany would not like the new city on the NE dot but I did not expect their response to be so quick. I thought we had time to build the walls. Now (only now!) do I remember that I planned to send two units with that settler. War still would have come, but we would not have lost a city. My bad. Blast.

War Plans
War at Deity is a new thing for me, especially this early in the game.

We have a settler just completed in Canberra that we need to use. Where do we put the city? On the NW dot (3 turns to move, builds city on turn 4) or back to the NE dot that was razed (2 turns to move, builds city on turn 3)?

All cities are making vArchers. Canberra and Brisbane could make a vSpear, if needed. Canberra can make it faster (2 turns vs. 3 turns) but it will take one turn to get to Brisbane, so the elapsed time is the same.

We should be able to get Iron Working from America, since it seems that we are the focus of German attention. The net price should be around 200 gold.

I have a worker making a forest road to connect more furs. I had hoped to trade these furs to Germany and buy us some time. Not now.

 

[tupaclives]

Ack blast. I hate wars before I have iron (unless of course you need to war to get iron like in "'By Jupiter' Rome on Deity"). Losing a city is very bad, aside from the lost settler, it will make it difficult to avoid having to pay Bismarck for peace.
When I played through from Andronicus' save I managed to avoid war. Sending two jags prevented it for me. Oh well, live and learn and we arnt exactly in a hole.

Don't have time to check the save but if we don't have land for a settler (don't found Pink dot straight away, or the NE dot until the german city is gone) then have canberra pop workers till we have 2 per city.

Also looking at the map we have a RCP problem already.
Adelaide.
It is at RCP 4.5, the rest of the first core is RCP 4.0

That means Adelaide is our 2nd ring, so any further cities beyond 4.5 will be 3rd ring!

Critique of your log:

You moved the lux slider to 50% to avoid Melbourne rioting. As you knew it would only be a few turns before Melbourne was connected why didn't you switch it to work a forest earlier to slow growth. If you had done that, why not employ a tax collector? How much gold was lost by increasing the lux slider that much? I know growth is important but if its one small, unproductive city then I prefer to just employ a tax collector for the 2 turns or so.
I'd like another 3 or 4 workers for the number of cities we have as we arnt industrious.

Dissapointing about the GA. Absolutely despise having one this early. Its a shame to waste it. My suggestions tactically would be raze the German city next to our NE dot asap, a stack of 5 archers should probably be able to do it, then sue for peace provided we dont have to pay.
We could have prevented war with germany by buying IW from them on credit but oh well, cant be helped now.

Also looking at your dotmap you have varying RCP between 7.0 and 7.5
I know it sounds small but I have noticed from some recent deity game just how much of a difference it can make to try and get a consistent RCP for the first two cores.

I have to go to the theatre now so I'll have a look at the save when I get back.

 

[Andronicus]

Also looking at the map we have a RCP problem already.
Adelaide.
It is at RCP 4.5, the rest of the first core is RCP 4.0

That means Adelaide is our 2nd ring, so any further cities beyond 4.5 will be 3rd ring!

Actually 4.5 and 4.0 are treated the same in the corruption model, all 0.5's are rounded down, so we do have a RCP4 and RCP7 ring

@ CommandoBob
Hindsight is 20/20, but I am surprised that given all the discussion that Germany was likely to attack and putting all non mp troops to frontline, that the most "in your face' town towards Germany was founded with escort of only one. Did you see a stack next to the city? Any encroachment with multiple units should sound alarm bells and a deal to secure IW for gpt would at least mean we gained free IW from the war.
Anyway enough ranting, I wont be able to look at the save today, we need to plan carefully to reinforce Brisbane and defen off initial German wave until we have enough archers to mount an offensive. Personally I would go with 8 or 10 particuarly as they will likely be cut back by swords.

I would agree with puchasing IW off Americans - if we have iron and can connect it it would help the war effort no end
The spare settler needs to go south - northern cities are too vulnerable, we will need a couple of settlers when we are ready to go get German town(s)

edit - how far are we off cats?

 

[Ansar]

They will take a rep hit, as their units were inside our territory when they declared war.

lurker's comment: The AI never takes rep hits unless is nuking, the other AI are still the same towards that AI, in this case, the AI dont care that Germany attacked you.

 

[Andronicus]

Well I did get a look at the save after all.

Trading
We have a lot more gpt avail now we are in GA
We dont req current 10% lux, it can go to 0%
We can buy IW from America for 9gpt+12g, as Abe is very weak compared to us I'm sure we could get it cheaper by renegotiating peace treaty (click active deals so peace treaty comes up, click peace treaty and will be asked if want to renegotiate, say yes and put IW on Abes's side of the table and see what we have to give him)
Maths could be researched in 15 turns at 70% (down from 21) - I think its worth it
War with Germany - give us cats and swords

Settler factory operation

[IBT]
Canberra settler -> vJag, 2 turns (need to get to 1 turn)

Canberra is not doing 5fpt .
The key to the 4.5-6.5 4 turn combo Jag-SF and the size 5 2 turn jag-worker factory is 5fpt so grows every 2 turns. On growth it will get 2 shields when governor asigns new citizen to most productive tile (forest furs). This then needs to be switched to maintain the 5fpt
Canberra is currently size 4.0, it should not have gone to that size - this is why you were unable to build 1 turn jag - at size 4.5 it gets the extra shields from growth
If Canberra had grown 5fpt it would have built the fist jag and settler as you did but the settler would have been built at size 6.5 bringing Canberra back to 4.5 and the the next jag would have been built in 1 because of growth. I suspect you did not switch to 5fpt so the settler popped at size 6.0 going back to 4.0 resulting in insufficient shields for jag (centre tile, 3mCow, mBG gives 9 shields)

Workers
We need mining of grass to get GA benefit. Despotic GA is bad enough, but doubly so when most of our improved tiles are already 2spt, and a number of worked tiles are 0spt

Settlers
Current settler should go south to either of the RCP 7 (or 7.5 ) sites
Canberrra can continue to crank out 2 turn jag / workers - we need to get our 1st ring cities productive fast for the war.

Military tactics
Brisbane needs walls if doesnt already have - this is the likely focus of German attacks. All avail military should go there (those not used for mp).
I think we need a 2 defence unit to protect our archers so a few spears may be required if we cant build swords soon
Could we try deflecting German attacks against a spear or 2 fortified on the mountain 2 SW of New York? That tile is accessible from Brisane in 1 move thanks to our road.

 

[tupaclives]

@Andronicus - if it rounds off then can you explain why a RCP 4.5, in my recent deity game, was doing 4 shields losing 1 to corruption, while a RCP 4.0 was doing 4 shields losing 0 to corruption? Does it round up, rather than down?

Agree with all your comments other than that.

 

[CommandoBob]

@ CommandoBob
Hindsight is 20/20, but I am surprised that given all the discussion that Germany was likely to attack and putting all non mp troops to frontline, that the most "in your face' town towards Germany was founded with escort of only one. Did you see a stack next to the city? Any encroachment with multiple units should sound alarm bells and a deal to secure IW for gpt would at least mean we gained free IW from the war.

I agree with you. It was dumb.

Lesson learned, the hard way.

 

[CommandoBob]

Settler factory operation


Canberra is not doing 5fpt .
The key to the 4.5-6.5 4 turn combo Jag-SF and the size 5 2 turn jag-worker factory is 5fpt so grows every 2 turns. On growth it will get 2 shields when governor asigns new citizen to most productive tile (forest furs). This then needs to be switched to maintain the 5fpt
Canberra is currently size 4.0, it should not have gone to that size - this is why you were unable to build 1 turn jag - at size 4.5 it gets the extra shields from growth
If Canberra had grown 5fpt it would have built the fist jag and settler as you did but the settler would have been built at size 6.5 bringing Canberra back to 4.5 and the the next jag would have been built in 1 because of growth. I suspect you did not switch to 5fpt so the settler popped at size 6.0 going back to 4.0 resulting in insufficient shields for jag (centre tile, 3mCow, mBG gives 9 shields)

Replayed from the start; found the problem.

In 1725 BC, after Canberra grew to five, the new citizen worked the roaded plain with fur (1fpt, 4fpt total) instead of an unroaded grassland (2fpt) or swapping the roaded grassland tile with Brisbane (2fpt and commerce).

 

[Andronicus]

@Andronicus - if it rounds off then can you explain why a RCP 4.5, in my recent deity game, was doing 4 shields losing 1 to corruption, while a RCP 4.0 was doing 4 shields losing 0 to corruption? Does it round up, rather than down?

2 town position factors influence corruption - rank and distance.
RCP allows multiple towns to share the rank corruption of lowest rank - in our case all our 1st ring cities rank the same whether they are distance 4.0 or 4.5.
Distance however will result in minor differences between 4.0 and 4.5. You are correct that this could make a difference to whether the 4th shield produced is waste or not.

If you want to minimise corruption you could just place all towns in ICS pattern fo minimal distance corruption. The point of rings is to take advantage of reduced rank corruption.

Ah, finally tracked down the reference I was looking for
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=19922&page=6
see Qitai's post - no 104

 

[Andronicus]

@ CommandoBob

Suggestion

Much depends on whether we have iron or not
Suggest trading America for it with renegotiation of peace tied in, then we will know more about whether we have iron, if so how long to hook it up, if not can we settle / fight for it as well as how much earlier we can hasten maths for cats
Once we know these answers planning will be more obvious

 

[CommandoBob]

Suggestion

Much depends on whether we have iron or not

Not had a chance to get back to the game so far this weekend. Will get IW and peace with America and then post a screen shot of our world. Discussion and plans can follow.

Edit: Right now I am in the tech booth at church, so it will be a few hours before I can do this.

 

[CommandoBob]

A few hours has stretched into many hours due to after church activities and family discussions.

Bought IW from America for 84 gold (all) and 5 gpt.

We have iron southeast of Melbourne on a mountain.

Germany has many sources of iron and America has one. None appear connected, at least not now.

The save is >>here<<.

Our Iron Supply 1525 BC

 

[tupaclives]

Without looking at the save my $0.02 would be, start roading to it NOW. Switch Melbourne to a Temple, whip it.
We can get culture expansion 13 turns, and I'd rather not plop a settler there to claim it as the city would have to be abandoned most likely anyway (although we could make it a fishing village...)

Either go the temple route which shoudl give us culture expansion around the same time we get the iron (might even take longer to road then get culture expansion). In the meantime we need things for the NOW so that means archers rather than jags.

The alternative would be to plop a city on the hill next to it to get it in our culture right now, make that city a fishing village although that makes our next RCP 6.5 rather than 7 which I'd prefer.

My preference is for the temple but its your turnset, so its up to you.

 

[Andronicus]

I'll put in my 2 cents as well

Put Canberra on jag / worker 2 turm factory (@ 5fpt) and take those workers straight to hill SE of Melbourne - as soon as roaded - use 1 worker for colony - much quicker than roading iron mountain and no need to build temple

Dont forget to fortify a jag on it. I doubt Germans have MM yet, but may not be far away.

 

[Andronicus]

In the meantime we need things for the NOW so that means archers rather than jags.

We should go archers at all 1st ring cities (perhaps 2 spears to absorb attacks), if we want archers from Canberra with the worker factory it will work if build archer at size 4.0-5.0, then worker 5.0-5.5, back to 4.5, then 2nd worker 4.5-5.0 and back to starting point of 4.0 - again need to maintain 5fpt - results in 4 turn archer / 2 worker factory

 

[Andronicus]

@ CommandoBob
Had a squiz at the save
2 comments
1) City management :Canberra still working forest furs -> only 4fpt and wont grow every 2 turns. Perth is wasting shields using furs - can use roaded grass this turn. Adelaide can use the BG it shares with Canberra when Canberra not using (size 4)
2) Diplomacy : Have not renegatiated peace treaty with America. Think of it as like the demands for money we have put up with when the AI is stronger. In our case we are much stronger, so renegotiating peace should give us some of Abe's 84g possibly allowing us to speed maths research. 70% science gives us maths in 15 (down from current 21) at -5gpt, so would need 75g - unlikely but worth getting what we can.

Just realised we are at our unit limit so we will need the money to support our military otherwise we will lose them. So keep the min research.
Need to build those 2 southern cities as soon as done workers to connect iron so we can supprot bigger military.

 

[CommandoBob]

I think that establishing a Jag protected colony on the iron is better than whipping a temple in Melbourne just to get the culture expansion. A colony would allow Melbourne to keep making its vArcher.

tupaclives, what are your thoughts on this?

@Andronicus: the city management and diplomacy issues will be taken care of. All that has been done on the 1525 BC turn is the buying of IW from the Americans.

 

[tupaclives]

It sounds like a sound idea, go for it. That would save 9 worker turns.

 

[The 777 Hoax]

Do you guys still have a spot open? What's the difficulty level and settings?