Turkey Chases PKK Terrorists Into Iraq Again

[Formaldehyde]

Aren't the blocks made of concrete? A 5.56 round isn't likely going to penetrate any building material besides glass.

 

[Silurian]

The walls could be concrete blocks, clay blocks, bricks or maybe timber and plaster.

Concrete blocks will not be as strong as that used in the frame and are often hollow.
Clay blocks are generally hollow so they keep out the rain etc.
Bricks could also have holes in them.

and the mortar that joins them together is often very weak.

I would not want to stand behind most walls especially internal ones in the middle east or south east Europe that someone was shooting at.

Look at the photos posted by Novakart in other threads.

 

[Bugfatty300]

Here in Mexico the walls are standard brick and mortar with plaster coating and and from what I've seen 5.56 rounds will knock out big chunks but won't penetrate. I've heard they even have trouble penetrating layers of drywall. They really like to fragment rather than penetrate.

 

[MobBoss]

I obviously meant soldiers who were competent and didn't indiscriminately fire their 5.56mm weapons which cannot penetrate concrete while fighting a handful of militants.

And the source for that information is given above.

A 5.56mm round still isn't going to penetrate it. But even if they do use more powerful weapons, the secret to not killing thousands of innocent civlians when fighting a handful of militants who are actually armed is to simply be careful and responsible, instead of deliberately doing just the opposite.

Aren't the blocks made of concrete? A 5.56 round isn't likely going to penetrate any building material besides glass.

From: http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/rifle/556mm_ammo.html

Single 5.56mm rounds are not effective against structural materials (as opposed to partitions) when fired at close range - the closer the range, the less the penetration. The 5.56mm round is affected more by close ranges than the 7.62mm or .50 rounds.

■5.56 mm Maximum Penetration. For the 5.56mm round, maximum penetration occurs at 200 meters. At ranges less then 25 meters, penetration is greatly reduced. At 10 meters, penetration by the 5.56mm round is poor due to the tremendous stress placed on this high-speed round, which causes it to yaw upon striking a target. Stress causes the projectile to break up, and the resulting fragments are often too small to penetrate.


■Reduced Penetration. Even with reduced penetration at short ranges, interior walls made of thin wood paneling, sheetrock, or plaster are no protection against 5.56mm ball ammunition rounds. Common office furniture, such as desks and chairs, cannot stop these rounds, but a layer of books 18 to 24 inches (457 to 610 mm) thick can.


■Wood and Cinder Blocks. Wooden frame buildings and single cinder block walls offer little protection from 5.56mm rounds. When clearing such structures, soldiers must ensure friendly casualties do not result from rounds passing through walls, floors, or ceilings.


■Armor-Piercing Rounds. Armor-piercing rounds are slightly more effective than ball ammunition in penetrating urban targets at all ranges. They are more likely to ricochet than ball ammunition when the target presents a high degree of obliquity.

The following common barriers in urban areas stop a 5.56mm round fired at less than 50 meters:

■One thickness of well-packed sandbags.
■A 2 inch (51 mm) non-reinforced concrete wall.
■A 55 gallon drum filled with water or sand.
■A small ammunition can filled with sand.
■A cinder block filled with sand (block will probably shatter).
■A plate glass windowpane at a 45° angle (glass fragments may be thrown behind the glass).
■A brick veneer.
■A car body (round will penetrate but normally not exit).

Although most structural materials repel single 5.56mm rounds, continued and concentrated firing can breach some typical urban structures.

■Breaching Masonry Walls. The best method for breaching a masonry wall is by firing short bursts (three to five rounds) in a U-shaped pattern. The distance from the gunner to the wall should be minimized for best results ranges as close as 25 meters are relatively safe from ricochet. Ballistic eye protection, protective vest, and helmet should be worn.


■Ball and Armor-Piercing Ammunition. Ball ammunition and armor-piercing rounds produce almost the same results, but armor-piercing rounds are more likely to fly back at the shooter. The 5.56mm round can be used to create either a loophole about 7 inches (178 mm) in diameter or a breach hole large enough for a man to enter. When used against reinforced concrete, 5.56mm rounds cannot cut the reinforcing bars.

Structure penetration capabilities of 5.56mm round against typical urban targets (range 25 to 100 meters). TYPE PENETRATION ROUNDS REQUIRED
8 inch (203 mm) reinforced concrete Initial Loophole 35 250
14 inch (356 mm) triple brick Initial Loophole 90 160
12 inch (305 mm) cinder block with single-brick veneer Loophole
Breach hole 60 250
9 inch (229 mm) double brick Initial Loophole 70 120
16 inch (406 mm) tree trunk or log wall Initial* 1 to 3
12 inch (305 mm) cinder block filled with sand Loophole 35
24 inch (610 mm) double sandbag wall Initial* 220
3/8 inch (9.5 mm) mild steel door Initial* 1
*Penetration only, no loophole.

Oh, and btw, your source for that huge number was some iranian news thingy? Do you have something from the BBC or a more legitimate source that says that?

Edit: Well, I put in that number and PKK and the only reference I keep on getting is that same singular link you gave. Nothing at all from any other major media source I can find.

 

[r16]

last night probably the dumbest thing evar on Turkish TVs was on , a debate programme host said thousands of tanks and troops were across the border into Iraq so that they could keep their show ( Americans will remember the square jaws and deep stares into the camera from the days their country went into sandy and dusty places to hunt down enemies of liberty democracy etc etc ) . He being one of the smarties who always talk about our brilliant imperial future . No , the troops are across only because the seperatists "scratched the charisma" of that imperial future and America got angry : Its dogs in PKK uniforms went tooo far , attacking when US interests needed them not to . Oh God , did ı just corroborate him ? Of course , curse my monofinger keyboard punching skills and the resulting foolery that passes as an attempt at communications .

simpletons get it very well that we must be lulled and pacified with some glory and some howling at the moon , so that we will be put to good use fighting somebody else's war . This economic smartness , this superlative brilliance of getting dog eat dog will get West to its doom soon .

the essence of the Turkish fight against the terrorism is that Turkish conscripts must die in the hands of seperatists so that more of them can be killed invading Syria . It is horror for smarties to hear BBC claiming 1300 1400 Seperatists were killed , because they are still on the line that Army can not fight a COIN campaign , maybe only because they haven't got their men in to form their own SS . One can even smell fear ... Funny ain't it , especially when US is already pressuring anybody across the political spectrum to declare truce , quake and all . No surprise , as "Turks" have the upper finger , if not the hand . Hence they fear Uncle Sam , not some bunch idiots . Especialy one particular idiot in the Starfleet , ı really hate my reputation of being "right."

who is singing lullabies to whom by the way ?

 

[anandus]

Last weekend there were riots in my city (in Amsterdam, Netherlands) because of all this. (The riots were in front of my house, actually)
There was a 'Kurdish Center' and a few hundred Turks (Grey Wolves and such) wanted to beat up Kurds and destroy the center. The police intervened, so there were skirmishes between the Turks and the police. A few wounded, a few arrested, etc.

I found it quite... uncool.
If they want to fight, why don't they buy an airplaneticket to the Taurus mountains and go fight there instead of 'importing' their issues here (or any other country outside Turkey/Kurdistan).

I was also wondering if there were skirmishes in other places? (outside Turkey)
Today there probably will be riots again as there's a mass demonstration expected.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Here in Mexico the walls are standard brick and mortar with plaster coating and and from what I've seen 5.56 rounds will knock out big chunks but won't penetrate. I've heard they even have trouble penetrating layers of drywall. They really like to fragment rather than penetrate.

Not sure about drywall, but masonry will certainly stop them.


Link to video.

As far as stopping a .223 round, a cinder block looks like a pretty good thing to have.

Although most structural materials repel single 5.56mm rounds, continued and concentrated firing can breach some typical urban structures.

■Breaching Masonry Walls. The best method for breaching a masonry wall is by firing short bursts (three to five rounds) in a U-shaped pattern. The distance from the gunner to the wall should be minimized for best results ranges as close as 25 meters are relatively safe from ricochet. Ballistic eye protection, protective vest, and helmet should be worn.

This gets back to what I was saying about being competent and responsible. You have to go out of your way to kill civilians inside most houses when fighting a handful of criminals in the streets. Besides, I doubt there was a single innocent Palestinian civilian who was actually killed in this manner.

Operation "Cast Lead" wasn't a normal urban assault combat mission. The IDF wasn't going house-to-house and kicking the door in of each one to clear the city block-by-block of some supposed adversary. This was no Fallujah. The civilians died from indiscriminate and disproportionate use of force.

 

[MobBoss]

This gets back to what I was saying about being competent and responsible. You have to go out of your way to kill civilians inside most houses when fighting a handful of criminals in the streets.

Ahem...those criminals you talk about dont fight in the streets, they fight in the houses sometimes right alongside innocent civilians. Which is the whole point of the 'sending the troops in' argument.

So, your claim here is pretty much incorrect on all fronts.

Besides, I doubt there was a single innocent Palestinian civilian who was actually killed in this manner.

???? Just a very quick scan gives thousands of links, the first of which is this:

http://articles.cnn.com/2004-02-02/...palestinian-leader-israeli-troops?_s=PM:WORLD

According to the sources, Israeli troops chased an Islamic Jihad operative into a house, then came under grenade and small-arms fire from the residence.

A Palestinian fled the house and was killed, the sources said.

IDF troops entered the house during the firefight and found two Palestinians dead inside.

Bad guy runs into a civilian house, fires upon troops, troops return fire, two additional civilians killed. This is an exact example of how 'sending in the troops' isnt a gurantee against civilian casualties. And like I said there are litterally hundreds, if not thousands of other examples like this (the google search actually gave over 2 million hits).

So Form, your simply incorrect on all these claims you are making. Very much so.

 

[r16]

due to the quake and the death of 24 soldiers before it , this year's National Day was not "celebrated" , the first time ever in 88 years of the Republic . Was not exactly popular ; what follows is arrant nonsense / political demagoguery

Spoiler :

regarding those national days , ı haven't been fond of school ceremonies ever since the fifth grade when they pulled me out of the ranks of 12 year olds and put a judge's cloak on , only because the detailed kid was ill . ı would rather be an officer but then nobody cared for me even then , though ı admit ı didn't look anything like military with my glasses .

watching the parade in Ankara was though a favourite : tanks , planes on TV , this year that wasn't possible ... Our "doves" have been talking against parades for years , they act as if their "democracy" will last a thousand years , America as the sword of Damocles enable them to rant how undemocratic and divisive for the nation that there should be rumble of tanks and screaming jets overhead . They are truly in sync with the age , those things belong where people must be killed for the advancement of "their" democracy .

one goverment guy countered the critics that the people who oppose are not democratic and know nothing about the principles of this Republic . OK , lots of time have passed since they would avoid being present in any place where they would have to respect the "idols of Kemal" ; you know America hates too arrogant an Islamism in countries under its thumb

everybody make anything they please out of it , oppsition claims centering on how the goverment is transforming the country into some sheikdom . The minister of Energy is hard at work to counter the notion that he supports the use of Summer Time in winter months to save electricity is a cover . A cover for forcing people to get up earlier ; in time for morning prayers . Putting the army into barracks on " Day #1 " is just a piece of ever increasing erosion of the Republic etc etc etc .

the simple fact is the #17 economy in the world , the country that hates its #6th in the world by headcount army , would be occupier of Syria could not guarantee the safety of a parade in its capital city . This , you won't hear anywhere else .

the solution was cute ; the prez accepted the foreign delegations and diplomacy being the art of making possible out of impossibilities , two ambrassadors walked by without paying attention to him . That Croatia and Vietnam apparently do not recognize him was laughed at by those present and it was countered by a former MP who crashed the party . This will be written to the account of the American ambrassador , the colonial governor . What else would you expect ? From me especially ?

the prez walked off without answering the journos , though it didn't exactly surprise anybody that his term was extented immediately to 2014 . They were so ready for a Putin Medvedev deal , with all those enemies of status quo in tow , things will go on this tack for a while , eh ?

and this tack involves some nice goodies , right ? The quake underlined some law or edict that allows goverment to forcefully take over any building apparently without payment , the narrative is they will tear down any building that's not quake-proof , even it costs them the next election . The financial outlay ? 250 billion USD . There was an Earthquake tax since 1999 and the what happened to those 50 million or billions so far collected ? A broad smile and soft tone and we the ignorant learn the money has been spent on education , health and roads . Roads like the quickie they built on the shoreline of a Blacksea town . A meter higher than what it should be , the town looks forward to be flooded in the spring too . The single issue is creating wealth by condos , office-space and malls . This is a contractors' state .

and future generations will find it remarkably odd this to come on the days Greece sheds a hundred billions as banks agree on drastic re-arrangements . And what will ı do against the new investments banks will satisfy their shareholders with ?

nuthin' . All ı can do is ranting on how Lucasarts and fans have blown it out all the way when it comes to Star Wars tech . Millenium Falcon is hit by a single bolt and it visibly shakes , people make calculations and derive astronomic power . Don't remember from which movie but it is so simple ; the shields are getting weaker , so they move the hull instead to prevent cracks . Yeah it is real funny to claim a Star Destroyer gun emits 6 megatons of power on a single bolt , it is actually roughly on par with a Phoenix warhead . And people will take this as a yes ... Nobody cares for what ı say .

returning to reality we hear it is only for respect for those who died , nearly 10 percent of them teachers from Western provinces concentrated in some cafe because the seminar they were supposed to be in was cancelled . Only 6 buildings in Van went down , being built according to the new laws in effect since '99 . Or rather not . And what happens to those responsible ? The architect of one building was vilified for having his family in tents in his large garden next to his SUVs while his house was undamaged ( cause it is folly to steal from material when it comes to buildings for your own use ) and he was all smiles , nothin will happen . There was a reaction , true , police made a raid on dishonest auditors/building inspectors . In the westest of the country , where people are openly proud for not voting for the goverment . War is good for business . War is good for crooks .

and of course the respect thing was full of holes , the prez was at the 50 years anniversary of a newspaper just 3 day ago . The PM went to 2 or 3 weddings on the night ; only one of them mentioned in the press because the goverment minister / owner of the wedding had also arranged for a concert from a singer and the artist got into police trouble . Am positive he is from Van ; unwed to 3 women with 5 kids , he roughed up a professional sex worker from abroad for her attempted "cheating" . Was not some emergency , some essential need for relief , 'cause he had arranged a gift of two women to a pal , in addition to the double he had for himself . 300 per head , that is just 1200 USD , that is the tip he would pay at a restaurant , ain't it ? While at it , the pal happens to be a singer / feodal bigshot too , he likes to boast how he can mobilize 250 000 people at a whim ... An arranged scandal and nothing more .