Turn 1-50

[talonschild]

While I am not the Foreign Minister, I drafted the following.

From (Chief Diplomat/Ambassdor), CivFanatic Foreign Minister, Protonotary Domainal, (other honorific to satisfy the rule of threes), to (Rival Team Leader), (honorific or two), greeting.

It pleases our peoples to make your esteemed acquaintance, and we would hope our jubilation echoes in your halls. The prospect of peace and friendship for bothour nations is a most happy one. We inquire as to when we may receive assurances of your similar joyous intent.

It has caused some slight concern that we may soon experience the agonies of war. We are certain that our scouts can adequately secure our capital, both our nation would benefit the more from continued peace. To that end, we suggest you confine your explorations to the following path in an expression of your continued amicability.

(Insert our recommended path here)

We look forward to your prompt response.

While I tried to mimic old-fashioned gentlemanly euphemism, I have no experience in MTDG diplomacy. Someone else likewise ought to fill out the recommended path, for that is again not my area of expertise.

 

[bcool]

the suggestion to move 7, 7, 4, 3 was a good one and gets a bit more exploring done without sacrificing our safety.

edit: from the next screenshot, 7 then 3 since it doesn't look like we have protection if we moved 4 after moving into the forest at 7.

The wheel is our next research goal since we need pottery asap to take advantage of the financial trait with some cottages. I don't think anything has changed with this goal.

 

[Caledorn]

While I am not the Foreign Minister, I drafted the following.

From (Chief Diplomat/Ambassdor), CivFanatic Foreign Minister, Protonotary Domainal, (other honorific to satisfy the rule of threes), to (Rival Team Leader), (honorific or two), greeting.

It pleases our peoples to make your esteemed acquaintance, and we would hope our jubilation echoes in your halls. The prospect of peace and friendship for bothour nations is a most happy one. We inquire as to when we may receive assurances of your similar joyous intent.

It has caused some slight concern that we may soon experience the agonies of war. We are certain that our scouts can adequately secure our capital, both our nation would benefit the more from continued peace. To that end, we suggest you confine your explorations to the following path in an expression of your continued amicability.

(Insert our recommended path here)

We look forward to your prompt response.

That certainly is very impressive diplomatic talk at a high level.

One thing I think is important when writing up things for diplomatic missives is to consider "how is the other team going to perceive this message?", and then try to read it from their point of view. I did some mistakes in not doing that the last MTDG as the team diplomat for Merlot.

Would you consider the missive friendly? Aggressive? Pleading?

Would you consider the team who sent the missive peaceful? Cautious? Cooperative?

I'm not an expert on this, even though I have experience with it, so if I become our Foreign Minister I am going to need help. Regardless of who becomes the Foreign Minister however, I believe we should set up a "central diplomacy" thread that we can use for general discussion about diplomacy and our foreign policy. Also we will need separate threads for each team we meet when the time comes, but that's for later. I will create such a thread though and we can continue to talk about diplomacy there. I know we want Sommerswerd's contributions on this subject! This is one of his specialties

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

 

[bcool]

Re: diplomacy

There are several teams that are not native english speakers so I suspect that a lot of flowery language would either frustrate them or make the message more easily misinterpreted. I don't have any experience however.

 

[Caledorn]

Re: diplomacy

There are several teams that are not native english speakers so I suspect that a lot of flowery language would either frustrate them or make the message more easily misinterpreted. I don't have any experience however.

That is a very good point, which should most certainly be taken into consideration by those who will be responsible for dealing with the non-english speaking teams unless of course they can write to them in their native language that is.

A little flowery language is fine though, I expect most teams will employ it to a certain degree. We should not overdo it though, as misinterpretations are easy - and diplomacy is a fine thin line.

 

[talonschild]

The man raises a good point. I'll draft a missive in French, and could someone do the same for German and Spanish? Someone else could start a diplomatic thread.

EDIT: Crosspost with Caledorn

 

[Caledorn]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=470727 Here is a generic Foreign Policy and Diplomacy thread

 

[YossarianLives]

That's excellent that we have a diplo thread now, thanks Caledorn.

As for the actual turns, I agree that 7-3-4 looks good now. I haven't seen anything to make us reconsider a TW-Pottery-BW tech path. Work the FP while we farm the corn and build a warrior. I'd have to look back at the micro plans that have been posted, but I think we either road or build a mine after that.

Edit: Here is bcool's micro plan, with us growing out to pop 5 after the worker (there were some who disagreed with this though, so I don't know if we need to get further consensus):

grow out to 5 pop fast
produced 3 warriors, settler, worker and 38/60 of another worker (total production is 243 hammers/food of stuff)
total food going to city growth 102 (22 + 24 + 26 + 28) and 2 in 2nd city
88 research into BW and 16 gold in the bank
2 turns growing a cottage
18 research at -2 gold per turn
crop yield 23 per turn
hammers 7 per turn
(can get 2nd settler out by T46)

So to my surprise I think growing to pop 5 fast is competitive if not better than a settler at 3 pop...
growing to pop 5 has a bit more commerce and it has a bit more food (at the expensive of a similar number of hammers)
While is 1st settler is delayed compared to settler at 3 pop, it can get a 2nd settler out faster
It starts to develop a cottage significantly earlier (of course I could get a cottage in the settler at 3 pop test too if I delayed the wheat but that didn't seem to make sense to me)

So I'm good with growing to 5 pop fast plan
the rough worker plan I used was...
so corn farmed,
either grass hill mined or plains hill mined
then banana farmed
then cottage FP
then road down to wheat/cows city is the rough worker plan with a cottage on the river grass tile since you get a wasted worker turn to play with waiting for the settler to settle wheat/cows

I had the capital grow corn, FP, and farmed bananas (no mines worked until pop 5)

 

[cav scout]

For warrior moves when you guys are saying 3 do you really mean 1?

Also, I have run further test games for the pop 5 plan and the following is the optimal worker micro:

1. farm corn
2. farm bananas
3. road corn
4. mine plains hill
5. mine grass hill
6. cottage Indira flood plains (at this point a 2nd worker will be improving city 2)

Indira builds:

1. Worker (in progress now)
2. Warrior (Indira garrison)
3. Warrior (City 3 garrison)
4. Settler (settle 3 south of indira)
5. Worker (city 2 worker)
6. Settler (gold city)
7. Worker (gold city worker)

Indira can then continue to pump out settlers/workers while staying stable at pop 5 and working cottaged flood plains.

 

[bcool]

yes I have been meaning "1" instead of "3" sorry.

For warrior moves when you guys are saying 3 do you really mean 1?

Also, I have run further test games for the pop 5 plan and the following is the optimal worker micro:

1. farm corn
2. farm bananas
3. road corn
4. mine plains hill
5. mine grass hill
6. cottage Indira flood plains (at this point a 2nd worker will be improving city 2)

Indira builds:

1. Worker (in progress now)
2. Warrior (edit: yes this warrior protects the area where the 2nd city will go)
3. Warrior (edit: indira garrison)
4. Settler (settle 3 south of indira)
5. Worker (city 2 worker)
6. Settler (gold city)
7. Worker (gold city worker)

Indira can then continue to pump out settlers/workers while staying stable at pop 5 and working cottaged flood plains.

I disagree slightly
1. farm corn
2. farm banana
3. mine plains hill
4. move to corn and road
5. road riverside grassland SW of corn (so we have a trade route to the 2nd city where I think we should put it 3S1E)
6. start cottage 1N of Indira

With this plan you have 1 turn of being unhealthy in Delhi while you start the road however at pop 5 you can immediately use the plains hill mine for the settler build at pop 5.
You are finished with the cottage right when you want the worker to follow the settler down to start on the wheat. (or the worker can stay and build more cottages)
You start working the cottage significantly earlier in this plan at the expense of working the grass hill mine. This puts slightly fewer hammers/food into the settler build but it gets more commerce earlier. Since we sacrificed so much for the FP and early cottages I have to assume people want to start working cottages asap.

(also we won't be using the grass hill mine once we have 4 cottages in Indira for quite some time, so the grass hill mine probably is lower priority)
the plains hill mine will be shared by the cows/wheat city no matter where we put it. If we do decide to put next to the river than the grass hill mine is shared and is slightly better than the plains hill mine imo.

Indira builds:

1. Worker (in progress now)
2. Warrior (edit: this warrior protects 2nd city location)
3. Warrior (edit: Indira garrison)
4. Settler (settle 3 S 1E of indira so it is next to the wheat and the cows)
5. Worker (helps set up more cottages)
6. ??? (presumably settler)

(my memory of my worker builds in the original pop 5 test wasn't accurate )

 

[socralynnek]

Indira builds:

1. Worker (in progress now)
2. Warrior (Indira garrison)
3. Warrior (City 3 garrison)
...

I guess, 2nd city will need garrison first ;-)

But rest sounds good!

 

[YossarianLives]

The updated micro plans look great. I agree with bcool about cottaging the FP before building the second mine (unless it delays the completion date of our first settler, that wasn’t clear). My question is about BW and whipping. With such a large food surplus in our capital (+2 center tile, +4 corn, +2 bananas, +1 each FP), we’re at +9 food at size 3. Whipping for 2 or 3 pop, from 5->3 or 6->3, seems like it would be much more efficient than slow-building workers/settlers at size 5. Especially if this lets us invest hammers into a granary while growing.

 

[bcool]

The updated micro plans look great. I agree with bcool about cottaging the FP before building the second mine (unless it delays the completion date of our first settler, that wasn’t clear). My question is about BW and whipping. With such a large food surplus in our capital (+2 center tile, +4 corn, +2 bananas, +1 each FP), we’re at +9 food at size 3. Whipping for 2 or 3 pop, from 5->3 or 6->3, seems like it would be much more efficient than slow-building workers/settlers at size 5. Especially if this lets us invest hammers into a granary while growing.

The whipping is probably better but we won't get bronze working until around T45 I think. So the existing micro plan won't be affected.

 

[cav scout]

I guess, 2nd city will need garrison first ;-)

But rest sounds good!

I was thinking that our warrior who is exploring right now can garrison city 2 after he completes his scouting loop down by the wheat.

@bcool- I see what you are saying about skipping the grass mine and accepting 1 turn of for a slightly earlier cottage. But I think getting to pop 5 and getting the settler out early is more optimal. I went with a maximum growth plan where we are working food tiles only until pop 5. This gets us to pop 5 fastest and then we switch over to working both mines plus corn, banana and 1 floodplain to get the settler out asap. In my plan the first worker stays at Indira and cottages all 4 floodplains. Our wheat city starts out by working the shared corn at pop 1 and the shared grass mine at pop 2 (another good reason for the grass mine). Our 2nd worker will then get the wheat online in time for pop 3.

@Yossarian- the problem with whipping in Indira right now is the happy cap. I test gamed it and it actually works better to just stay at pop 5 and churn out settlers/works while working five food rich tiles- including growing cottages.

We can think about whips in our capital down the road when we have the gold, etc online.

 

[cav scout]

Here is a tenative dotmap based on what we can see now. The idea is to found our 2nd city (red/production) close to serve as a unit build site while Indira pumps out settlers and workers. City 3 (gold/commerce hybrid) claims the gold and city 4 (blue/commerce hybrid) claims the floodplains. City 5 (green/production) claims the deer and actually might be better located on the plains hill 1NE.

Spoiler :

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

[talonschild]

I like the green one better 1NE. Though of course we musn't rule out cities in other directions.

 

[YossarianLives]

Yeah, let's leave open the option of putting city #3 to the north or west where it can help grow the capital's FP cottages.

 

[Caledorn]

If all the teams have similar areas to us, this map is certainly a very nice map for developing good civs! All these rivers and FP's are going to make us an economic powerhouse..

Also, moving the warrior 1 next turn seems to be a given to me at least, as 2 would be the weirdest move ever, and 7 would put us even further away from the capital. The other moves would put us in open terrain which is not an option. What do you guys think?

 

[YossarianLives]

Warrior 1 next makes sense, then 4 after that.

Alternatively, 4-1 would let us see across that water tile in the fog for more visibility, but would put us on an unprotected flat grassland tile. I do think 1-4 is the better, safer move, though.

 

[cav scout]

I like the green one better 1NE. Though of course we musn't rule out cities in other directions.

Agreed, on further examination I like 1NE spot better too. It provides better coverage of all tiles so nothing gets left out and allows shared working for a couple of the blue city floodplains.

I put the green dot on the grass hill kinda as a default because someone had mentioned that as a potential spot previously. Also the grass hill site could serve as a potential GP farm with cows, deer, corn and bananas...
----------------

Warrior move- I say 7 because I like to live just a little dangerously and I really want to get an accurate picture of our immediate area so we can make an solid dot map. I think we can accept a little risk by being just a few tiles further away. He who dares wins afterall

EDIT: I looked closer at the latest screenshot. Definitely go 7 next onto the silks- that will put us on a coastline and give us some good visibility. We can go 1 onto a forest after that and skirt along the coast (looking for seafood) until we get to the area where we saw the lion and then head south.