Turn Discussion Thread

[champinoman]

Workers do continue to move/build in revolt. This is the only difference between revolting early or later. I believe Irgy's point was that revolting while taking advantage of a workers movement or settlers movement will allow the improvement or city to effectively be founded 1 turn earlier (in terms of development not game turn).

 

[pindicator]

I don't know why I didn't think of this initially, but I have removed the micro plan document I put up under my own google account and instead uploaded a copy under the sirius.mtdg account. I won't put it as an external link; it will be secure by letting anyone in our team view it by simply logging in to the team google account.

Edit: I'm going to have to look over the turn-to-turn details of worker -> wb before making a commitment either way. But first i'm going on a run while it's still sunny and warm!

 

[Lord Parkin]

One thought - people conducting tests should ensure they have all the correct settings for doing so. If you are not on a STANDARD size map and MONARCH difficulty level, your tech costs (and consequently beaker counts) will not be correct.

Workers do continue to move/build in revolt. This is the only difference between revolting early or later. I believe Irgy's point was that revolting while taking advantage of a workers movement or settlers movement will allow the improvement or city to effectively be founded 1 turn earlier (in terms of development not game turn).

Right, but at the point at which we're debating switching to Slavery, we would have no Workers and no Settlers, and thus it would literally be a completely lost turn. Not to mention the fact that even if we switch to Slavery, we're only planning ONE potential whip - and won't have any more because we need to grow to size 6 ASAP to get the 2 Scientists. Going into a turn of anarchy just for the sake of doing a single 1-pop (inefficient) whip and nothing else for dozens of turns just doesn't seem sensible. Once again, I am highly in favour of ditching Slavery until much later (probably after turn 50). With our crack research rate, we should be at Monarchy (probably) or Monotheism (less likely) before too long even if we focus on other techs, so we can then do a much more efficient double civic switch later.

I don't know why I didn't think of this initially, but I have removed the micro plan document I put up under my own google account and instead uploaded a copy under the sirius.mtdg account. I won't put it as an external link; it will be secure by letting anyone in our team view it by simply logging in to the team google account.

Good idea.

Edit: I'm going to have to look over the turn-to-turn details of worker -> wb before making a commitment either way. But first i'm going on a run while it's still sunny and warm!

Heh, fair enough.

 

[dima42]

There seems to be some conflicting results here. For the record, my original working was wrong as I was growing to pop 2 on 20 food not 22. This will affect all paths, but will probably affect them differently. However dima42's well documented results however do seem to confirm that the difference is still basically 30-odd food/hammers for 30-odd beakers.

The difference is the raw commerce vs. beakers. Also in the spreadsheet (all credit here goes to pindicator for the format), Worker->WB has 738-686 = 52 extra commerce.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the forests are 30 hammers each after math. So it's really 55 hammers for 72 beakers. If we revolt to slavery, it will become 70+ hammers for less than 40 beakers. If we go this route, I certainly think we should not revolt to slavery before HR.

Also, I likewise do not think it's a big deal if we go worker next. My reasoning for the workboat is identical to Irgy's, but I don't think it's a clear cut case by any means. In fact, because I don't like revolting to slavery before HR here, I think it's an even less clear case.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Another thing to keep in mind is that the forests are 30 hammers each after math.

Good point. So on the one hand having more forests might allow more higher hammer chops in the WB -> Worker scenario. On the other hand, in the Worker -> WB scenario, Maths will be reached earlier, so the chopping bonus will apply earlier. My guess is this means that the WB -> Worker scenario will chop 2-3 forests before Maths, and the Worker -> WB scenario will chop about 3 forests before Maths. So they should be similar; but we should test it.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Actually, on that note, that's quite a good argument for heading for Maths straight after Writing, regardless of our build queue. But I digress.

 

[champinoman]

1 thing that I was unsure about in my test game is what the tech path will be after what we have discussed. Currently:

Mining -> BW -> Wheel -> Pot -> Writing -> Sailing

What is our next goal after that?

And did anyone have any comments regarding getting AH after the wheel? In my test game (albeit WB WB whipWorker) it turned out only delaying the library 2 turns. Does someone want to run a simulation of it with the new proposed start? Just so we cover all the bases.

I guess the AH debate will begin if we find no copper on our island.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Not sure we need Sailing immediately after Writing. I don't know if we'll be able to get trade routes with the other islands assuming they also have the "ocean-strip" thing. And we'll probably want to fill out at least one more spot on our island before building a Galley. But that's just a feeling.

 

[AlphaShard]

LP I like the double Civic switch but I was wondering if we should just go for Caste System? Do we need the Mystisim line to get CoL? Philosopy?

I like the idea of Math after Writing to make our chops more effective.

 

[champinoman]

Sailing eliminates the need for roads between the cities at the start. It also opens up our first trade route between the 2 cities?

Its like a 2 turn tech and has some decent benefits.

Math is also a good idea for the extra hammers from the chops. This is what I have researched in my test games but I didn't have some sort of goal after that in mind.

 

[grant2004]

Not sure we need Sailing immediately after Writing. I don't know if we'll be able to get trade routes with the other islands assuming they also have the "ocean-strip" thing. And we'll probably want to fill out at least one more spot on our island before building a Galley. But that's just a feeling.

If we can't get trade routes over that ocean tile the Great Lighthouse wouldn't have been all that powerful after all.

I've been convinced that worker first is the better option. I hate delaying our exploration, but we won't be able to send a settler that way for a little while anyay.

 

[Lord Parkin]

LP I like the double Civic switch but I was wondering if we should just go for Caste System? Do we need the Mystisim line to get CoL? Philosopy?

Caste System could be interesting, although it's still a little while away yet. We can get it through either Currency or Priesthood.

Sailing eliminates the need for roads between the cities at the start. It also opens up our first trade route between the 2 cities?

Its like a 2 turn tech and has some decent benefits.

True I guess. Hooking up the cities early would be handy.

 

[DaveShack]

Put me down for worker first, no early whip, and minimize chops before math to the absolute minimum.

 

[pindicator]

Hey LP -- I just realized your Test Case #3 is identical to my Test Case #1 So much for number crunching, it's already been done.

(Btw, I also had the same panic about needing a monument to work the fish in the 2nd city. It took me about 20 minutes of trying to figure out how to fit in Mysticism into the tech plan before I remembered we were creative.)

I'm seeing a lot of people adverse to early slavery, and I have to admit that this is against my intuition of what to do on a water-based map. Usually there isn't much production, but this is a case where we do have some forests to get us through the early game, so I can see it working, but we're going to need to get more than 1 worker out. Maybe once we get the first city down it should start off with an immediate worker.

So I think I like the earlier worker for that reason: it's going to finish chops / improvements around the capital earlier and leave the worker available to start chopping workers / settlers / galleys out of our 2nd, 3rd towns.

I do wonder about the next build after the library. If we're not slaving, then a Granary in the capital doesn't seem too helpful right away. I think a lighthouse (to potentially get to size 6 quicker), a worker, or a workboat for the 2nd city would be better options.

 

[azzaman333]

Put me down for worker first, no early whip, and minimize chops before math to the absolute minimum.

How do we produce anything without chops or whipping? We need the hammers.

The Worker has to be whipped from size 3 for the maximum efficiency, as far as I can see. But even then, it isn't as good as not going to Slavery or whipping at all.

The worker can probably be whipped from size two and grow back to size two on the same turn, allowing the two fish to be worked for food.

We have a lot more commerce and food than production in our capital. Crack the whip.

 

[Trystero]

Not sure we need Sailing immediately after Writing. I don't know if we'll be able to get trade routes with the other islands assuming they also have the "ocean-strip" thing. And we'll probably want to fill out at least one more spot on our island before building a Galley. But that's just a feeling.

This doesn't need to be decided right now, but I thought the objective of early (or earlier) Sailing was that it would allow us to get to potential strategic resources on neighboring islands/land masses. Granted we can do some scouting with a WB, but we might want to get a settler to other islands or the mainland before our opponents.

 

[champinoman]

I just ran another example game including AH.

Tech order: Mining -> Wheel -> BW -> AH -. Pot -> Wri -> Sail

2nd City founded on turn 39.
Library finished on turn 41.
2nd worker finished on turn 42.

Writing was 2 turns late so I started a worker while waiting. Switched to library as soon as it was able to be built and then then the 4th chop allowed the worker to be finished the turn after the library.

Capital is only a 4 pop but will be 5 on turn 45.

Attached is save file on turn 42 for easier comparison. (I haven't fixed the desert tiles but I made sure I wasn't working them anyway)

 

[champinoman]

Slight variation:

Everything the same as above but substitute a WB instead of worker as the last build to fill in 2 turns waiting for writing will allow for the city to grow to size 5 in turn 42 when the WB finishes. That workboat will arrive at the 2nd city 3 turns after the borders pop. Maybe use the first spare WB to scout the SW land and then head up to the fish to settle on the turn the borders pop is a better idea and use the next WB to explore the SE island (or SW island depending on what the first one saw).

Getting to 5 pop and having AH at this point seems like a valid choice to add into the mix.

btw, I forgot to mention the tech situation. Sailing finished on turn 42 which is better than most previous examples considering I added AH in there as well.

 

[Lord Parkin]

I do wonder about the next build after the library. If we're not slaving, then a Granary in the capital doesn't seem too helpful right away. I think a lighthouse (to potentially get to size 6 quicker), a worker, or a workboat for the 2nd city would be better options.

Yeah, the Granary was just a placeholder in my test. In practice, we'll need a Warrior to keep the capital happy at size 5/6, so realistically that should probably come after the Library. After that, I'd be inclined towards a second exploring Work Boat (to head in the opposite direction around what I assume is the main continent, and find more civs).

The worker can probably be whipped from size two and grow back to size two on the same turn, allowing the two fish to be worked for food.

Doesn't seem worth it. It takes one turn to grow to size 3 once the second fish has been hooked up, so we may as well get the extra hammer by growing.

We have a lot more commerce and food than production in our capital. Crack the whip.

The main problem is that cracking the whip is a mutually exclusive strategy to the early Great Scientist one we were planning. We can't be whipping and at the same time employing the scientists we need to get that Academy up ASAP. This is the primary reason for my aversion to the whip. If we didn't have the two Gold resources, I'd agree that whipping heaps would be preferable because an early Academy wouldn't be so beneficial. But with the early Academy, just from the four main tiles (2 Fish and 2 Gold) we'll be gaining 50% of 8+8+3+1 (tiles) +1 (city square) +8 (palace) commerce each turn in beakers (with a 100% slider), i.e. the early Academy will grant us at least 14.5 bonus beakers per turn (and more pretty quickly). That's simply huge.

Votes are now:

WB -> Worker (3 confirmed, 1 unconfirmed): dima42, azzaman333, Irgy, BLubmuz?

Worker -> WB (9 confirmed): Lord Parkin, Trystero, AlphaShard, Methos, fed1943, champinoman, grant2004, DaveShack, pindicator

Let me know if I've put you down for the wrong thing. Either way though, it looks like we're now leaning fairly strongly in favour of the Worker next. We can probably make our move before too long, assuming a whole heap of votes don't come through for the Work Boat next very soon.

 

[champinoman]

Getting up the Academy earlier negates the bonus from skipping AH as well. I keep forgetting it but LP just reminded me yet again that its either whipping OR early academy. You can't really have both.

Edit: Congrats LP on your 5,000th post