Turn Discussion Thread

[BLubmuz]

Hello
Who has the idea to go at the 2. coal tile, why? That is the last important action for worker now. After all jungle tiles are chopped and modernisized, we can perhaps mine the coal, or perhaps found a city there. I don't understand it. The roaded jungle at coast need a farm quick, and the farm row to east and then the fort/canal at the mav spore is more important.

I hope we roaded now with the worker there.

Me, i have seen no other coal. Have i overlooked? Sorry if it was a mistake. Sure, road that tile, but a city there gains nothing, it's a GL Hill. If it was a P Hill it would have 3H in city center. And too much overlap with other cities.

 

[Irgy]

Then, this debate on the ETT continues rising because we're still in there. We're putting great efforts and resources in research (research buildings and so on) when the other members build military. Then they were smashed but that's not important. Better for us.

No more ETT if not with Amazon, provided they offer a fair amount of research.

So, let's revise the message, let's do anything, but let's have this stupid ETT burned.

In any case, Ama is tied with our NAP, as we are. For what we can see, CDZ is absolutely pitiful military side and Quat not much better. Let them come.

In other words then, it keeps rising purely because you haven't changed your mind. No other reason. Nothing has changed in game. None of the reasons why leaving it is a bad idea have been countered. No alternative diplomacy strategy has been suggested. Nothing. It's just a simple case that you haven't changed your mind and keep arguing about it.

What you don't like is tech-trading-on. Tech trading on means you waste time researching techs and giving them away. Tech trading on means having a good economy is not worth a third of what it ought to be. Tech trading on means forming big fat alliances full of spongers. The ETTT is simply the tool by which we follow the one correct strategy for a tech trading game, and you just don't appreciate which of the two elements is at fault here.

Propose an alternative diplomacy plan to the ETTT that isn't "insult our allies and spurn our acquaintances while continuing to war with our enemies" and I'll listen to you, otherwise please stop bringing up the same tired arguments over and over again.

PLease look here, i think that answer should suffice.

I already looked at that. That's the post I was complaining about. Where do we mention HE, or NE? If this is what's come of diplomacy since I've been somewhat inactive then I'm going to have to make a concerted effort to get back involved.

We've just received a reply by the way. I'm reading it now and will post it in a minute. Please don't anyone respond to it before we work out how we're handling this situation.

 

[Trystero]

We've just received a reply by the way. I'm reading it now and will post it in a minute. Please don't anyone respond to it before we work out how we're handling this situation.

I've just posted it.

If I understand correctly, Mavericks did not abandon the city or delete its own units, Amazon killed the units and then we took it before they did. Were we aware of this when when captured the city? That is not good. Not good at all.

 

[Alltriia]

Yeah, it sounds much like desynchronization. Plus a diplomatic screw-up.
This is also another reason to document the turns.

 

[AlphaShard]

I still find it odd that Bubble gum was empty of units completely. How could that even be possible? Plus I could have sworn they were two sqaures away from PLauge, also there were no units next to Bubble Gum at all. Very weird, you know what just lend them the Marble. The GP trick isn't as fun without Philosophical anyways.

 

[BLubmuz]

You can see my proposed answer to Ama message in the Ama diplo thread.

I swear didn't noticed their injured units, but they were 2 tiles away from Plague (now Mizar). So i must think that Mavs throwed at them all they had. Not clear why Bubble (now Alcor) was empty.

Irgy, the ETT was a good thing when it was signed, now no more. I raised the question with the plan to break it about this time in game. Now the time has come and i don't see a reason to maintain it. Plain. Simple.

We're the big dog here, we're financial, we just lack some units.
I don't want to give away rifling, our fellows ETT (not allies, remember, only Ama is our ally) can make too good use of it. They already have all the prerequisites thanks to us, this will be more than enough. dot. Time to fly alone. Let's find an elegant and diplomatic way to do so, but let's do it NOW!

Then, you disappear for days if not weeks and return just to say i'm wrong proposing this. Please, look at the game, look at the answer Amazon sent to my request of coordination and tell me if i'm wrong. Not to mention that Quatronis, which i've sent the same messages not even deigned to answer. Allies? Better having them as foes, at least you're sure they want kill you.

 

[Irgy]

Allies? Better having them as foes, at least you're sure they want kill you.

It's this kind of ridiculous statement that makes a mockery of your argument. You might not like them but no they absolutely are not better as foes. You obvoiusly have a very emotional reaction to what I am happy to conceed is a distasteful agreement and situation. What you don't have is any sort of plan for a better alternative. Flying solo based on a one tech lead and a slightly higher GNP? Absolute suicide.

Knocking Quatronia out when the time is right I completely agree with. If there's a case that now is the time to do so then fine, make that case. But don't act in a way that sets up an Amazon-Sirius vs CDZ-Quatronia war that we have no need to fight and before we've even finished with M&M. And don't push Amazon into an eventual Amazon-CDZ alliance that will overtake and eliminate us in the endgame. These are the two biggest things we need to avoid, and you seem to be going out of your way to make them happen at the moment.

 

[BLubmuz]

It was just to emphasize my feelings.

I'm more than happy if you can draft a plan to which will avoid us to be fighting in tech parity in the end game. But do it, not just criticize my proposal. I understand you points, but you seem to understand but be contrary on any proposal to do something diplomatically.

So, since you're more experienced than me in MP games, please draft a plan. With a timeline, possibly.

 

[AlphaShard]

I logged in to take some screen shots and could see Quat actually teching Steel in 7 turns.

Now as for plans we DID agree that we would at least tech to Rifles and Cannons, were almost there. I think however we need to know what's Amazon's status with CDZ and Quat on Naps and such. We do have some time until Mav is gone.

I'm wondering about the time table of 1500 AD, if they feel that MAv/Mer will be gone and they will be ready for new wars.

So I think in 1130 AD we will be able to switch our civics, so let's decide on that as part of a longer term plan to wipe out Mav and plan for what our next war will be.

Sidenote I do believe the Amazons will remember this and keep it as a strike against us Ninjaing the cities, even if it is a bit strange about Bubble Gum.

I'm voting for Representation, Vassalage, Slavery, Merc, and Theology. The plan is by then to be able to whip many of the Dikes and begin production on military units. We can build ships, rifleman, Curissars and siege (I know steel won't be done in time for this). We can also accumulate gold for any unit upgrades, etc. Get about 6-8 EI's loaded with units, land the stacks so they have to come to us. They will do the same tricks they done before with their cities and they have too many units.

Well that's my plan for taking out Mavs. I don't have enough info on the Diplo between Amazon and Quat. Currently I'm fearing the worst that WE are the next target after Mav/Mer.

 

[Irgy]

It was just to emphasize my feelings.

I'm more than happy if you can draft a plan to which will avoid us to be fighting in tech parity in the end game. But do it, not just criticize my proposal. I understand you points, but you seem to understand but be contrary on any proposal to do something diplomatically.

So, since you're more experienced than me in MP games, please draft a plan. With a timeline, possibly.

Why is the bar set for me as "not fighting at tech parity"? Your plan will have us fighting at a massive tech deficit by the end-game, I'm happy enough just avoiding that. If you want my to write my thoughts on what we should do into a "proposal" I'm happy to though.

 

[Trystero]

I'm voting for Representation, Vassalage, Slavery, Merc, and Theology. The plan is by then to be able to whip many of the Dikes and begin production on military units.

Again, I would point out that running Mercantilism will reduce our commerce and we don't need the specialists. It will also negatively impact the teams whose cities we have trade routes with. I would wait and adopt Free Market. Amazon is researching Economics. At the very least, I would warn other teams in the ETTA before we switch civics.

 

[AlphaShard]

Sorry I didn't realize there was that much negativity to it. We can leave that one alone but I do want to get Rep, Vassalage and Theology. Slavery would be useful for getting our dilkes done quicker.

 

[Irgy]

Again I'm saying this from a little outside the micro, but, we have at least two sets of civics during a golden age. Those we run during the golden age, and those we finish it on. Actually with MoM we could have up to four different sets but you get the point. Slavery could for example get us a bunch of buildings, but then be switched out of in favour of Emancipation or some such on the last turn of it.

Vassalage is rarely better than Beaurocracy (have we put Oxford in the capital yet?) or Free Speech unless we plan on really churning out the military units for a while. I'll have a look in-game later (which I want to do anyway as part of getting myself back on board and on track) to make some genuine recommendations rather than just random comments.

And Mercantilism is purely for civs which are at war with everyone else, as foreign trade routes provide much more commerce than the specialists ever could.

 

[AlphaShard]

Well Vassalage would only be temporary as we don't have Free Speech or Buracracy atm.

It's just a short term plan to help us take out Mavs by generating a strong army. I'm just worried that Free Speech might escalate things on the Anjen spoke.

At any rate I do think we do better with more informed input as well so I look forward to it.

 

[Irgy]

Well Vassalage would only be temporary as we don't have Free Speech or Buracracy atm.

What do you mean "don't have"? We definately have the techs for both, do you just mean we're not running it? Vassalage during the golden age, while building a stack of units, then switching back to Beaurocracy at the end sounds like a good plan, if that's what you meant. And that's a good point about free speech annoying Amazon, probably not a good time to do it.

 

[AlphaShard]

I forgot we just got Liberalism so we can do Free speech now.

I keep trying to upload screen caps and nothing is working.

 

[Irgy]

Ok I just logged in to the game. One thing I just want to say before I go to bed:

Currently, not a single city has the HE or NE in the build queue. We will have a second source of marble in 9 turns at the latest. Why on earth are we not trading marble to Amazon again? It's ridiculous. We're not even using it. Have the build queues changed since we started having this discussion? I very nearly just offered it to them in-game myself.

 

[AlphaShard]

The Build Queue has changed several times, from units to builings to Dikes. You'll note I think in Sirius has three different things with hammers already invested in them.

 

[BLubmuz]

I think the HE can't be started for at least 2 turns.
So we can lend marble for those turns, then ask them back, then give them again.

But we need to make this clear with them. The NE can wait until we have the 2nd source.

Civics:
- once built (or almost) the dikes in our core cities, sure a switch from OR to Theo. this will give us (just to remember) 5 XP units and 7XP if mounted (i think we have stables in all our core cities - if not the city which lacks them will build not-mounted)
- Representation for sure, i think
- switching to vassalage for 5-6 turns is a good idea, but our final choice must be Bureaucracy, IMO (3rd switch, on last turn of GAge) let's forget Free speech.
- If Ama will give Economics, this should be done on the final switch. Before of this i see benefits in running Merc for few turns unless Economics comes on line.
- I would like to make a pact with our "friends" to tie anyone to never switch to Emancipation. The choice is between slavery and Caste. Not sure which is best for the last switch.

 

[HUSch]

Also we don't need NE, we 've no GP-city.
We build HE after dikes at Vega or Arc, (Irgy we can't build it now, no 10XP-unit , so it couldn't in queue).
I would like vassal and theo for during the GA, to get cavs with 9 XP
We don't need HR, so rep is good.
Slavery is better than caste
Merka is a move against our ally and I hope for FM
Büureau or Vass I haven't decide; our Capital is not so very best. We 've no Oxford or WS there, But this 'll decide in 10 turns.